Now do you smoke that - inject it, or does it come in a pill?

When I talk about "blind faith" I'm taking about the people who put their faith in the Bible. Not about bozos who claim to be 'saved' but have no clue what the Bible even says.

You claim to be a 'born again' Christian and you might even claim that means that you are 'saved'.

But the truth is that you can't trust Jesus to agree with that. He stated himself that there will be many who claim to know him but he will deny them.

So your claim that you've been "born again" is totally meaningless. You can't know whether Jesus will agree with that or not. He clearly stated that he will indeed reject people who claim to know him.

In fact, that proves that the biblical God does indeed reject people who have accepted him!

Clearly accepting Jesus Christ isn't good enough. He has to agree. It's not up to you to decide. It's up to him. And that means that he can reject you, even though you claim to be willing to accept him! Therefore the biblical God can indeed reject people who are trying to accept him. Jesus said so himself.

So accepting Jesus Christ as your savoir doesn't really guarantee anything at all. In fact, he said that very few will actually make it into eternal life. If that's true then the vast majority of Christians will be rejected by Christ according to the book that is supposedly his word.

All these people who are vehenmently arguing for the biblical God will be betrayed by the very God they've been arguing for.

Owl bet they won't like him very much when he turns on them.

you have been listening to to many preachers who dont have a clue what the bible really says or means, the lake of fire is not a literal lake of fire, adam and eve were not the first humans, noah and his family were the only ones on the ark with a perfect lineage and did not mingle with the fallen angels,and God didn't create the wickedness in the world, (cain was the seed of the serpent). Many folks try to take one or two verses from the bible to teach with and forget all about the previous verses with the subject and object of what is being talked about.
It is some deep study to explain all of your questions in such a format as here, I wish you the best and pray you find the answers you seek, but you will find a lot of folks in here that hate God for one reason or another no matter how unjustly and would love to steer you away from a relationship with God, hope you find the comfort and the answers you need, but beware of anything man tells you, me included, take it with a grain of salt, read, study and pray about it, good luck

"Who knows what it will take for each person to make the decision to fully surrender to God Tribo. It's all about individual choices. Everyone's life experiences are different & so results vary...but we are the only ones in the way of God's move. That's the truth Tribo."\

I’m not exactly sure who said this but why would you NEED to surrender to anything and especially an organized religion? Why is submission a required tenant of this belief system? That to me is nonsensical and smacks of some kind of enslavement or thought control pattern. The OP has a right to know that not all religions or assents into spirituality require that you "give in" to something. That's horrible and unnecessary.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

pretty & articulate

Well put, and thanks for the setup for a couple points:

1) “responsible” is defined as "Involving personal accountability or ability to act without guidance or superior authority." So "to fully surrender to god" is nothing short of complete irresponsibility.

2) “slavery” is defined as "The condition of being subject or addicted to a specified influence."* So a religion that is founded on belief in an omnipotent God has slavery at it's very core.

This quote really sums it up beautifully to me: "One who rejoices in his own slavery, is a slave indeed."

[Donning asbestos suit.]

(*definitions are quoted from the American Heritage College Dictionary, Fourth Edition.)

Yes well some slavery is better than others.

For instance...freedom can be a form of slavery when it lacks accountability, things like drug abuse, alchoholism, porn etc...all produced from people's freedom of choice but not neccessarily a good thing. The only thing wrong about slavery are its abuses but we are ALL slaves to something. To think otherwise is fooling oneself.

Self discipline is better than force but for those who LACK in self discipline there are intervening consequences.

So if one has to surrender to anything it might as well be something for their good. Just sayin'

I agree here.

Eljay,

I'm afraid you missed the point of my post. If you had grasped it, you would not have reacted in the indignant and paternalistic manner that you have towards me.

Calling out te lies of divisiness which I perceive Eljay!!! ...is what I contribute to the dabate, IMHO.

Calling the lie of divisiness everywhere I hear, or see it. If I'm wrong in YOUR opinion, by all means, share your claim. That is part and parcel of the debating process.

Tell us in what manner exactly the following extraordinarily exclusive and divisive claims are not delusional at best, and outright lies at worst:

'... Uniquely, Christianity has that distinction in that the spirit in man is not the Spirit of God and that to know God requires knowing the Spirit of God...'

'... Only the born again christian knows the truth...'

'... BINGO!!! For as many that are led by the spirit OF GOD, have the RIGHT to be called the sons of God...'

Whatever one's personal beliefs, confusing the fine line between the 'personal' and 'universal' domains will always be spreading lies and mischaracterizations by the carrier.

As faith is personal, so are beliefs. They are a 'construct' and 'assent of the mind' to that which 'appears to be true' for the believer, ... PERSONALLY!!!

When you take your personal beliefs: personal convictions of what might true for oneself, and impose them as WHAT OUGHT TO BE THE TRUTH FOR ALL, given certain dogmatic pre-conditions, you enter the zone of the delusional.

You are no longer 'IN GOOD FAITH' with yourself and others. You use your 'supposedly' SUPERIOR beliefs to separate, divide, and dominate others, consciously, or unconsciously so.

Bottom line, when you walk around claiming that YOU of all human beings, 'know the truth', you are simply and obsessively perverting beliefs, and faith.

That is my point. We are all in the same boat. All of us, in our own way, with our personal beliefs and faith, are on a journey to SEEK what is true. Seeking, not knowing!!!

None of us 'know what is true'. It is a fundamental aspect of being a human being.

Of course, when all human beings are seeking what is true, it is very tempting for 'SOME', to make the false claim that THEY KNOW!!! THAT THEY HAVE THE ANSWER, AND ULTIMATE KNOWLEDGE!!!

It's called 'charlatanism'!!! And it will always be called 'charlatanism': the perpetula deceit of promoting lies as THE TRUTH!!!

I have been denouncing comments and messages of divisiveness based on such lies, from my very first posts on these forums, and will keep denouncing them in the future. You may agree, and then again you may not. I, for one, do not walk around pretending to KNOW THE TRUTH, so the opposing point of view is always welcomed.

This is what these forums are about: supporting or denouncing comments, statements, and observations which you agree with, or are in discord with, respectfully and intelligently so, as much as possible.

What I have posted earlier Eljay, was right on topic.

And to get back on track, as you suggested, I would ask you sincerely, to address the following extraordinarily exclusive statements:

'... Uniquely, Christianity has that distinction in that the spirit in man is not the Spirit of God and that to know God requires knowing the Spirit of God...'

'... Only the born again christian knows the truth...'

'... BINGO!!! For as many that are led by the spirit OF GOD, have the RIGHT to be called the sons of God...'

Do you support those kinds of claims yourself Eljay???

Looking forward to your reply.

Between this thread and the one that Tribo has started, I don't see any spokes persons for the holy spirit coming forward to answer his simple question.

JB

voileazur

( Is it ok that I cut & paste your name? Wouldn't want to be accused of something as petty as namecalling for a spelling error)

You quote things shared by Christians out of context. As if we are pointing fingers or something. Your battle is not with us...it's what God's word says & therefore we know is truth from results.

You & others here are so obsessed with pointing fingers & growling about what you don't like about what God says in the Bible, you have become ferocious in your accusations & lies about what we are saying (be them malicious or not, they are perseptions in your own mind only.) This! To the point of not acknowledging His love & mercies & all His goodnesses to humanity. You completely throw out all the wisdom & knowledge & secret wonderful wisdom of the ages as followed by sign & wonder & miracles...for what?

I say it's time for the unbelieving to grow up & get a spine! Stop whining about your lack & maybe what you need & desire will show up.

You are the ones dealing in bad faith (no faith that is.) I think you need to check your own attitudes before you go around pointing fingers.

Maybe you don't like it that I have resorted to poking fun about things said but too bad. Absent civil discussion that can agree to disagree the only thing left is to laugh & joke about it all. To find even that an offense just goes to show who lacks a sense of humor.

Point fingers all you want. We always come in good faith...not with lies & deceptions to trap men in their gloom & doom. You & some of the others here don't even reveal what you DO believe because you are too buzy putting down God's word. To your shame only... Don't blame your guilt on a good God. I call it for what it is...lies.

Most know that lies do not bring comfort & at the end of the day it doesn't make a person 'win' anything either. Peace... for the soul. (Or maybe because you can't see it you don't believe you have a soul either??? Who know right? You don't say. why not? what do YOU have to hide? How about your pals? What are THEY hiding?) Wisdom & knowledge and many other things the inner man needs.

More than intellectualizing & growling...what do YOU offer ??? I know! I know! All you do is enter your hit & run posts never to be heard of again. I guess you just wanna be heard.

I dont think "goodnesses" is a word quickstop. Im looking right now though as a courtesy to you.

No...I didn't get it wrong...I spelled it that way deliberately.

OTOH I think you need to go back to your speed reading class...apparently you don't read so well or you would be spelling my name right.

Don't say you didn't know cause I know better.

Know what? What are you talking about? I could not locate "goodnesses" as a word but that doesnt mean its never been used. You just used it.

That reply goes in a few different directions, so I’ll break it up…


Yes well you could also say that some pedophiles are better than others.


Saying “The only thing wrong about slavery are its abuses” is like saying “the only thing wrong with murder is that people die from it.” The thing that is wrong with slavery is that it denies self-determined choice. What you’re calling “abuses” do NOT come from the freedom of self-determined choice, but from addiction, which is (by definition) slavery.


Let me paraphrase what you said there so you can understand my answer: “If one must choose something that will make his choices for him, he might as well choose something that would choose the same things that he would choose.” So I would answer this way: If you have the choice in the first place, then why give it away at all???


Of course that statement cannot be either proven or disproven. So it is only a belief - which leads right back to the original issue I was trying to address in my first post. If you believe in an omnipotent god, then you cannot believe that absolute freedom is possible. The two are, by definition, mutually exclusive. Now since you (supposedly) have the ability to choose what you believe or don’t believe, then why would you choose to believe that you can never be totally free?

Great topic of discussion I think. I created a thread for this to discuss submission, slavery and freedom.


http://mingle2.com/topic/show/159349

Well actually...yes...being a slave doesn't neccessarily mean servitude. it could be addictions etc. As I stated above.

Since we have the propensity to trip over ourselves when we are not looking... hmmm...

I saw my pseudo at the top of your post and figured that it was addressed to me!

How wrong was I!!!

Nothing in your address was intended as a communication (dialogue).

You are a soliloquist 'Quikstepper'!!! A self contained and self talking questions and answers 'machine' to oneself.

This is a public forum, meant for dialogues and exchanges between people coming to the forum in good faith.

Soliloquists should abstain from disturbing the peace.

If you wish to engage in the dialogue at this point,
... and address my post, eventhough it was addressed to Eljay (no problem, it is a free and open forum),
... please answer the question I posed to Eljay, and be done with your soliloquies.

Stop with the pomp! Don't think you're part of the problem?

There is plenty there to address. For those who harp on wanting their questions answered you certainly don't like answering any yourselves.

Do you always hit & run?

Answer the questions or move on.

Actually, I find no truth to the statement that you can't trust Jesus to do that which he has promised to do. I can't speak for what you have experienced in your life that bears witness to your claim, but I can crtainly speak of my own experiences, and I can say conclusively that when I seek out the truths of scripture - I don't have difficulty finding them.



Perhaps this idea of being "Born again" is meaningless to you - perfectly understandable, since you have never experienced it, but you do not speak for me. My conversion was anything but "meaningless", and I am continually reinforced with the "meaning" of it on a daily basis.



You've got that backwards Abra, no one comes to God unless he calls them to Him. The contact or "seeking" starts with God/Jesus, not man. And Jesus does not reject anyone whom he has called -who has put their faith in Him.

{quote]
So accepting Jesus Christ as your savoir doesn't really guarantee anything at all. In fact, he said that very few will actually make it into eternal life. If that's true then the vast majority of Christians will be rejected by Christ according to the book that is supposedly his word.


No - it is you who is stating there's no guarentee, and you are stating this premise as a pretext that you falsely assume you have supported with biblical context. You're just not any good at doing this Abra. You want to learn how to do this correctly - you need to study those who are masters at it. Joel Olsteen, Kip McKean, Pat Robertson, Thr Rev Sum Yung Moon. Learn from the masters how to correctly twist scripture to support a pretext. Your an amateur at it, and not even a good one.



This may be true of some - but I can guarentee you it will not be all.