This is so true, and what I have been saying all along...

Unseen... unknown... therefore, not of us or our understanding...

All I have is what you actually type into this thread.

If you were not so vague with your statements and questions and implications ~~I could better understand what you are getting at.

I am beginning to suspect that you just like to play games with words.

I like to be direct and to the point. I try not to assume things, I can only read what you write.

When you tell me that I am way off base, I wonder how I got there.

Please try to speak more honestly and more directly, and keep it simple please, so that a simple minded person like me can actually know what your are talking about.

JB

I understand the Law of Cause and effect, I don't claim to know the details of how it works. But I do understand it and have faith in it.

JB

JB:

I like you, so don't think otherwise...ok?

I like most everybody...

I thought my initial posts in this thread were pretty clear. There were things that do not make sense when considering the manifestation of thought.

I expressed them on a completely emotionally unattached platform.

You implied personal things regarding me that were not applicable.

I attempted to point this out on two separate occasions.

It had nothing to do with my own personal life or any event thereof. It was nothing personal, just did not make logical sense, from my perspective.

Definitions create boundaries...

Words inherently lesson the value of a concept.

I know nothing... and I am truly ok with that...

I hope that you better understand that I just think out loud in here...

Do not take my statements "personal" please.

When I use the term "you" it is because I realize that you are a point of view.

You are not a disembodied impersonal thinking mechanism, and if you were, I would not bother to discuss things with you.

I view you as an individual, a person with a point to make, and a point of view. It is my desire to understand your point of view.



I have yet to understand these things you say were "pretty clear" that do not make sense to you, but it does not matter.

You say "the manifestation of thought"

I am saying that thought manifests things.

You refer to the manifestation of thought.

What do you think manifests thought itself, the mind or the soul? Where does thought come from?

Is original thought just a product of the brain or does it come from a higher source of intelligence?

Just something to ponder.

JB

Just because they are unknown by us doesn't necessarily mean that they are not of us nor that they are necessarily outside our potential for understanding.

This is kind of like the original Newtonian picture of physics. Even when it was believed that all things were theoretically knowable it was still believed that it was beyond pragmatic availability.

In other words, there were simply too many variables to keep track of. Knowledge of the process of cause and effect alone was not enough to facilitate it prediction in worldly matter simply because the complexity was overwhelming.

Kind of like attempting to forecast the weather very far into the future. There are just too many parameters to keep track of, it’s just not doable even if it might be plausible in theory.

Of course with the advent of the quantum picture, a wrench is tossed into the mix. Cause and effect take on a whole new slant due to the quantum randomness (and the butterfly affect combined).

Cause still plays a role (probably a major role), but randomness certainly creeps into the picture as well.

Even though we may not understand the cause of the randomness, we can still understand the concept that it exists.

I don’t believe that it’s possible to live a perfect existence in the physical form. And part of this is due to the random nature of physical reality. Even if you, as a person, could emanate perfect vibrations all the time, you would still find that some random vibrations are reflected back to you that you didn’t generate.

It’s just the nature of the world. You could say that this random nature is not of us. But then again, the fundamental question arises, “Who are we?”

I agree with Abra. If all is one, then everything is OF US.

While a single entity (or personality) can't contain all information, gaining access to specific information is not beyond our capability.

Understanding everything is not necessary as information is shared on a need to know basis. ...

In a world in which only one's thoughts manifested things in their life. In a world where reality is a cause of one's own manifestation of thought. In a world in which the Law of Attraction were true, it would always be so.

I do not believe the notion is anything more than a clever way for one to make a tremendous amount of money, while trivializing cause and effect at the same time.

The explanation immediately leaves logical ground and then relies upon pure faith.

When one leave logical grounds to substantiate a previous attempt at a logical claim, one loses merit.

It is a feeble attempt to explain the unknown...

Which cannot be done.


EDIT:

Initial point well made Abra... I should have said 'knowingly of us'...

Walks in whistling from the corner of his mouth doing the keep on truckin' walk, tosses a fart grenade and high tails it for the door.

Just from reading your posts it seems to me that you’re expecting too much from this ‘Law of Attraction’. And part of that could be due to Jeanniebean’s portrayal of it (as well as the way it was portrayed within the video “The Secret”).

Even in that video they seemed to be implying in parts of it that all you need to do is sit around in your bath robe on an easy chair dreaming of owning a new sports car, and somehow miraculous it would be manifest in your life. That’s a bit over simplistic there. Quite a bit over simplistic.

However, they did elude to the idea of the “Law of Attraction” being much like the law of gravity. It’s a law of the natural universe.

Well, if you think of it in those terms, then you need to put it within with all the other laws of the universe. It’s merely one of the laws of the universe.

You seem to be acting like the “Law of Attraction” should override all other laws. But that would be like expecting gravity to override all other laws.

Imagine that you jump out of an airplane and parachute to earth. During your “freefall” you’re experiencing the wonderful ride of gravity pulling you down to the earth. But once you land the ‘freefall’ stops. Then you might have a tendency to say, “Well, gravity must be shut off now because we aren’t falling anymore”. But clearly that’s not the case. It’s still holding you to the surface of the planet. There are just other laws (i.e. the law of electromagnetism and nuclear forces) that are holding you up from falling into the center of the earth.

Well, in much the same way. All of your objections seem to be related to these other laws.

To say that the Law of Attraction can’t be true because just because everything isn’t in a constant of ‘manifestation freefall’ is to ignore the fact that it’s not the only law of this universe.

It just seems to me that you’re expecting too much from it. Like if you can’t just conjure up precisely what you want when you want it then the Law of Attraction must be false. But there are other factors in the mix.

Just like you can use gravity to coast a wagon down a hill. But first you need to pull the wagon up the hill in order to get the free ride. Just because you needed to do something additional doesn’t negate the fact that you can use the law of gravity for a free ride ‘down’ hills.

Well, using the Law of Attraction may be similar. Perhaps precisely the additional effort you put toward a manifestation is like pulling the wagon up the hill. You still benefit from the Law of Attraction, but it’s not the sole factor at work.

I can pretty much guarantee you that you can sit in your easy chair dreaming about owning a Ferrari until the day you die. Chances are that you’ll never own one if you don’t get off you butt and take some action toward making that happen.

Our lives aren’t driving by solely by the ‘Law of Attraction’. It requires that we pull the wagon up the hill too!

To make an analogy with the “God concept” we could say that God only helps those who help themselves.

You still need to pull the wagon to the top of the hill if you want the free ride back down again.

And it always is so. What makes you think it isn't?

What in this world was ever done or invented without first the thought of it?

What painting was ever painted without first the thought and visual picture of it, followed by the intention of it and the action to bring it into being?

What book was ever written or goal was ever attained without first the thought of it, and second, the intention of it.

Thought alone will not bring it to you.

Thought will only imprint the picture upon formless substance. If you abandon that thought, it may never materialize.... but sometimes it will anyway if no opposing thought cancels it out.

First comes the thought. But the thought alone may not bring the thing into full manifestation.

Dreams and fantasys will not produce results and will not manifest anything if there is no intention to make it so. (Be thankful for that.)

Intention and action must follow. Without intention to make it so, it will never manifest, ~it will manifest only in a dream reality~ and it may just fade away if it is forgotten.

It takes intention and sometimes persistent attention to bring and to receive that which you are attracting (asking for.)

In order to receive it you must believe that it is yours.

Visualization and pretending helps. But intending and emotion and a feeling of great joy and anticipation, and gratitude and faith will bring it into manifestation.

This can be proven over and over. If you think and do things in a certain way and you do not give up or loose faith, or think of failure, then you will receive what you have asked for when you hold to your purpose. You may have to work for it, you may have to do what needs to be done, but as you do, the universe will be helping bring it to you in ways you cannot even see or imagine.



That is a synical and shallow excuse to reject a primary truth that could completely change your life. Oh well.

The book by Esther and Jerry Hicks "Law of Attraction" is a mere ten dollars on Amazon.com. It has over 300 pages of amazing wisdom about the law of attraction, and this information is worth a hundred times that amount if you learn to use it.

Personally I don't like the movie "The Secret." It skims over the the subject. It was not well done at all.

Another Book "The science of Getting Rich" by Wallace D. Wattles is a free public domain book. Nobody is getting rich on that, and yet its wisdom and instruction in is priceless.




The Law cannot yet be explained in common scientific terms, all I know is that it works. Most very successful people use this principle. Many books have been written about it.

For me, together with quantum physics and the holographic model of reality they all fit perfectly and make perfect logical sense to me at the physical, quantum and spiritual levels.

I do not separate the physical, quantum and spiritual levels of logic as you do. They have to all fit and they have to work together because if they do not, then they are not logical at all.

I see that it works and I have faith in it. What I can't see or know ~still works. I don't need to know how it works. I see how it works.

(It is the same with my computer. I don't need to know how it works either. I have faith that it does because I see that it does.)

It is the Law. It is the way things work.... in this reality.

Things might work differently in some other reality.

JB

A simple example of intention.

Once I told someone of my plan for a business.

They did not believe in my intention, they believe I simply had a dream.

So they say "I hope it works out for you."

When they say that to you, you know that they do not believe you intend to do it or that you intend to succeed.

****************************************

To say "I hope..." carries with it the thought of failure. It is not intention. It is not purpose.

****************************************

Picture this scene:

I am sitting at the table and I want a glass of water. I tell you that I am going to get up and get a glass of water. (Which I fully intend to do.)

Do you say, "I hope it works out for you." ??
No of course not, because you know that I fully intend to do it and that I am capable of doing it, and you know I will do it.

That is intention.

******************************************

First you decide what you want and then you intend to make it so.

The Law of attraction will not kick in if there is no intention.
You can do everything else the formula calls for, but if you leave this out, it will not work.

I wish to get rich is not the same as I intend to get rich.

I wish to loose weight, I hope to loose weight is not the same as I intend to loose weight.

***************

JB



***************************************

I’m currently thinking about building a new front door for my cottage. Right now it’s just a thought, but I have gotten out my old ‘door-making book’ and I’ve also been searching the Internet for visual ideas on doors.

I can hear my mother’s voice though, she would be saying, “Well I hope you do more than just think about it.”



I already have the lumber, the woodshop, and all the hardware necessary to build the door. All I need to do now is design the door I want and manifest it in reality.

I don’t know how much the “Law of Attraction” will help, but I’m sure my radial arm saw will come in handy.

Let me explain something very clearly and very quickly.

Your extrapolations include the terms everything, everyone, always, and others also that I do not care to go back through your expressions in order to extract, which inherently invoke absolute certainty.

If this were the case then there would be no lazy, negative-minded successful people...

Guess what... there are!

If this were the case then there would be no one killed by pure accident.

Guess what... there are!

If this were the case then there would be no good people who have nothing but positive things to say about others being brutally murdered at another's hands...

Guess what... there are!

The list goes on and on...

It is a clever way to make a buck, while appealing to those who do not believe in the religion which they have been exposed.

You are completely confusing cause and effect, twisting it in order to attempt to make sense out of a clever scheme.

You've been duped!

There is no magic in perserverance and determination...

It is called integrity... Amen!

Oh yeah...that is my conclusion... Your earlier quotes were just leading up to it.

Thank you! Finally!

(I personally don't see any or know any "lazy negative-minded ~ yet successful people," and if I saw someone who seemed to fit that description, I certainly would not claim to know the intricate details of their thoughts or their lives and I wouldn't pretend know how they measure "success" or whether they are happy, so I am not even going to assume these types of things that you have stated here are true. You don't know that either. ~~All you see are appearances. )

I only know from experience. You can only know from experience. Everything else is only appearances and opinions.

But now I finally get you ~~and now I get your point. Finally.





(Not in my model of reality. There are no accidents. Sure you can call it an "accident," but it is a result of some cause... and the consequences of a sequence of events that happened as a result of thoughts, decisions, moods, attitudes, etc.)

Did you know that insurance companies consider newly divorced people high risk simply because of their negative state of mind?

It is because on the average, they are more prone to having accidents. This is a statistical fact.






Really? Again, you don't know the quantum detail of their thoughts or their lives, all you see are appearances. You don't know their soul or their thoughts.
Your logic is strictly physical world "it-does-not-exist-unless-I-can-see-and-measure-it" type of logic.

A least now I know exactly where you are coming from. Thank you! Finally, my work is done here. I finally managed to extract your base opinion and skeptical thoughts on the whole matter. You finally came forth with a simple and easy to understand statement of opinion that a simple minded person like me can understand. That is all I wanted from you. (Whew! It was like extracting a tooth.)




Okay, what ever .... I've heard it all before in the science and atheist's forums. I do understand the mind set.

Peace to you. I consider the matter over.

JB

And by the way, I don't believe in "magic" either.

It is all a very exact science.

JB

Exactly...

Whilst you guys were discussing thoughts, I turned my thoughts about building a door into a picture. I made this door by chopping up a picture of a door I found on the Internet. I couldn't find precisely what I wanted so I came up with this design. I already have the stain glass angel window. Although it's not quite as large as the picture. This is just a rough draft. I'll have to work out all the details concerning dimensions. But it's a start.

Here's a link to the picture.

http://www.csonline.net/designer/ideas/door.jpg

To the fact that you do not know any lazy-negative minded successful people I give you


Paris Hilton

Al Capone

Georg W Bush


...After hearing the victim's widow describe how she watched her husband die, a judge today ordered John E. du Pont, an heir to the du Pont family fortune, to stand trial on charges of first-degree murder....


...North Korea is a self-described Juche (self-reliance) state. Government is organized as a dictatorship with a pronounced cult of personality organized around Kim Il-sung (the founder of North Korea and the country's first and only president) and his son and heir, Kim Jong-il....


...Caligula’s political payments for support, generosity and extravagance had exhausted the state’s treasury. Ancient historians state that Caligula began falsely accusing, fining and even killing individuals for the purpose of seizing their estates....

Vincent Willem van Gogh (30 March 1853 – 29 July 1890)

His comment on his early years was: "My youth was gloomy and cold and sterile....

...His father and uncle sent him to Paris, where he became resentful at how art was treated as a commodity, and he manifested this to the customers. On 1 April 1876, it was agreed that his employment should be terminated....

....Vincent opted to live like those he preached to, sharing their hardships to the extent of sleeping on straw in a small hut at the back of the baker's house where he was billeted; the baker's wife used to hear Vincent sobbing all night in the little hut. His choice of squalid living conditions did not endear him to the appalled church authorities, who dismissed him for "undermining the dignity of the priesthood."...

I think you know where it goes from here. Quite possibly the greatest painter of all time. All he did was mope and be sad, think about bad things and still made beautiful flowers.

I think that maybe it is the steal forged by fire that is the strongest. Maybe it has to be bad and you have to think how ruff you have it in order to pull yourself up. Maybe always thinking about that negative things in your life will make the few nice times amazing. Look at how many people in the arts seem to have depression.