I openly confess that it makes me angry when people suggest that those who are in poverty and dearth are only suffering because their ancestors were disobedient to a mythological God.

That kind of rhetoric actually suggests that things are the way they are because this is the way God wants them to be, and that the people who are in the bad situation are there because they deserve it.

A lot of people think like that. They see a homeless person on the street and think, “Well, he must be getting what he deserves”

When people start believing that God is punishing everyone who has misfortunate it’s really a sad state of affairs. Any religion that holds that view isn’t worthy of attention IMHO.

Sorry for the side-track, but I had to get that off my chest.

Abra,

The manifesting of one's own reality is truly not much different in that regard. The point of blame for circumstances is still placed upon the individual...

Walking away from 'God'... just in different terms is all...

Even that book says BLESSED are the poor, the meek, the lowly.

If anything the people that profess Christianity should say that those people and places are the most blessed by that God.

People have not learned how to be completely positive or grateful for what they have. We are here to learn how to manifest.

But your statement is true. Everyone who is positive in mentality and belief would take appropriate actions towards their positive goals ~~once they learn what works and if they can remain positive and keep their thoughts and belief on their goal. Failure is not an option. There is only the goal.



Outside factors? ...And I thought you were the one who continues to insist and agree that all is ONE. THERE ARE NO OUTSIDE FACTORS. We are all connected.



Then your are still not taking 100% responsibility for your life if you still want to blame "outside factors."

JB

Exactly, and this is why the religion based on that book is so ambiguous.

In one place it says BLESSED are the poor, the meek and the lowly. And yet in other places it can be used to claim that God’s vengeance is upon those people for having turned away from him.

It’s a double-edged sword that can mean anything anyone wants to abuse it for. Virtually a useless religion because of it’s extreme ambiguities. It’s just totally inconsistent with itself. Therein lies it's danger because it can be used to support just about any human motive or agenda.

Where's any concrete message from any God if it's so full of ambiguity?

I think it's the wide range of ambiguity and how people abuse that ambiguity that turns me against the religion with such a vengeful tongue. It can be used to support just about any agenda anyone wants to place "God" behind for support.

That’s what makes is so despicable. It’s not a message from “God”, it’s just a ambigious doctrine that men can use to claim that their opinions are backed by “God”.

It's a dangerous doctrine because of this.

Yes, I do agree with this abstractly. (very abstractly)

However, I think there is a huge difference between people failing to focus on manifesting their lives in the best possible light, and the idea that God is somehow punishing them for having turned away from him.

Big difference there. The later suggests a personified God who is passing judgments. Whilst the former is more just a result of cause and effect. No God to appease in the former.

In other words, appeasing a God isn't going to do any good. Manifesting a positive life is the only thing that will do any good.

Ah JB:

Too quick to assume...

This discussion is not at all about me, nor my beliefs. I am considering, once again, the notion of thought manifesting reality as it has been described to me.




If you understood where I stand on the matter, this would not have been mentioned, I assure you. I feel that you are attempting to correlate my different stances taken on different conceptual thoughts as though the stance itself were my belief.

That would be one assumption too many.

I stand outside of emotional attachment in order to see as many sides as possible. I mention the problematic ones which logically refute the subject at hand.

If there is one thing that I do know, it is that I do not know anything.




That is a self-absorbed statement if I have ever heard one.

It is not about my life JB...

So then, according to your expressions, if a man walks down the street at night, drunk... on his way home from the bar because his life has just taken an unexpected turn for the worse, and he gets murdered by a crack-head, that drunk man manifested that reality?

And you speak of love?

The dots do not connect.

Next time, say , "Hi Wouldee" , Abra.

Let me stab at these points, my friend.

1.How is disobedience to the 'mythological God' relevant? It is not. You fail to recognize this little caveat; Gid is whether we like it or not, on the ball, Abra. Men choose to be ignorant and blind and continue in the deprivation of depravity and the consequences are clearly evdent in the observation of man not applying himself in adaptation to his environment to survive. Migration always works, if nothing else. The 'box' is only just that...a 'box'.
2. Rhetoric? assumption upon assumption. How then is reason possible? Being argumentative and opinionated without thinking is not becoming, my friend. Do you deserve yours?
You are never articulately persuasive when assumptions cloud the point. Humanity is connected and collectively adequate in sharing valuable information that will lift any people out of their calamities. Perhaps priorities are more causal than God's intervention when considering that God steers us to be wholesome and caring. Even without cognizant deference to God, man mocks what works. Why doesn't it work in Africa?
It does when Africans choose to embrace action. But for the most part, they approach things much like you do...shifting blame and not embracing anything that suggests effort and personal accountability for being sensitive to God's due care and diligence. The conscience is the manifestation of such treasure. Who empties that treasure chest, but each man as he chooses.
3. The homeless man on the street is given a very narrow purpose for being in that state by your view of such things. Perhaps you would do well not to embrace that he "deserves" it, Abra. Clearly you have in citing it as an example of meritorious contemptuousness. Perhaps some anti-social dysfunction has clearly upset such a one as that, if not even some mental health issues to boot.
But then, it is easy to blame a violent and arbitrarily egotistical and judgemental and "mythilogical"God for it.

How convenient. You sound quite foolish, don't you think?

I know your answer to this question will be equally disengenuous. But go for it. You shall, in any case. It is you.

4. God is not punishing Africa, Abra. Africa is punishing Africa. Another convenient disengenuity transferred upon your "mythologica God" so inappropriately misconstrued upon your judgement. It seems your "religion" IS worthy of your attention after all. Has it ever occured to you that your soapbox for debunking Christianity is really your own delusional construct gone awry?
All I see in you is that you have never allowed anything relevant to sink in. Only excuses that are found within the pages of the Bible have inspired your contempt. How very original of you. HA!

5. You will never get that weight off your chest, Abra.


YOU PUT IT THERE...and it will stay there until you tire of it burdening you.

Run along and play, now.

Sorry, but you just come off as a spoiled brat not getting his way, my friend.

I am not convinced that you intend upon displaying ANYTHING MORE MATURE THAN THAT.




Tough love? not to you. Rhjetorical nonsense meant to irk you?


Most definitely, if I were to suppose to know your thoughts.

oh well......

peace, my friend. Even if you don't recognize peace.

Abra:



That is exactly what makes sense, logically speaking, regarding manifestation of thought...

Abra.

you have no clue what the religion of the BOOK is.

Why do you pontificate that you do?

don't answer that...just chew on it, even though I have irresistably taunted you to do otherwise, and do otherwise you shall....

getting my point yet?

I only read your words and translated them for what they say. If I assume anything it is that you know how to put a sentence together.


I was unaware that you were the devils advocate. Pardon me. I thought you spoke from your point of view. Now I don't know how to ever respond to your statements because I don't know where you are coming from or whom you are speaking for.



It is lower plane logic you are using, not spiritual laws.



So you do not know that you exist?



Yes, he manifested that reality. You might not understand why, but then as you said, you "don't know anything."

No one knows the scope of the pattern that is drawn. No one knows why. The patterns of cause and effect are too complicated in an infinite sense.



The Law of Attraction, the Law of Cause and effect are automatic laws. Love has little to do with it. Christians describe it as the Wrath of God.

Yes, he manifested that reality. You might not understand why, but then as you said, you "don't know anything."

No one knows the scope of the pattern that is drawn. No one knows why. The patterns of cause and effect are too complicated in an infinite sense.



The Law of Attraction, the Law of Cause and effect are automatic laws. Love has little to do with it. Christians describe it as the Wrath of God.





OK JB explain the holocaust from the point of view of the Jews. How did they Manifest their own demise. Will you say here that they are to blame for it?

My perception of ancient doctrine is just as valid as anyone else’s.

You certainly have no problem pontificating your impressions of the book.

Are you suggesting that you’re impressions have more merit than mine?

Clearly you are, since you’ve already stated that I have no clue.

Obliviously you believe that God favors your opinions over mine.

This is precisely the kind of attitude that the book instills in people, and precisely why I reject it.

It causes people to delude themselves into believing that they speak for God, or that God somehow favors their interpretations and opinions.

I’m not buying it, but if you can sell it to the unwary more power to you.

There are no exceptions to the Law of this reality for earther incarnates who agreed to play the game.

They are (and you are) here by their own choice, they have chosen the lives they will experience and they have chosen their manner of death in each life before they are even born.

They (we) die many deaths. They are aware of and have agreed to all of the laws, to include the timespace nature of reality and the Law of cause and effect.

I have attempted to explain why appearances that seem brutal or unfair on the face, are the effect of thought and action in motion. The world is about the balancing of opposites.

The law of cause and effect, the Law of attraction, only makes perfect sense when you combine it with the idea that we are immortal in spirit and that we live many lives in the flesh, and that we chose to come here and that our true selves know more than we do and exist as the observer of how the little self chooses to live life.

We are both the oppressor and the victim. We are one in the body of God/the Universe.

I don't buy that either. But everyone has a right to their high opinion of themselves. I know I do.

JB:



Denial is not just a river in Egypt...

I wonder if what you read is what I write, or your own assumption(translation) of my agenda and/or intent, which is founded within you, not I, and completely inaccurate. Do yourself a favor, and quit placing your notion of intent upon my expressed perspective. Perhaps then the issue at hand could be discussed from a reasonable perspective instead of this type of expression...



My point of view questions everything from wherever an inherent issue lies. Do not take it personally. I speak for myself. You must know where I come from in order to adjust your response? Does that mean that it could differ, according to what you think I mean?


I said this earlier...



That is a perfectly reasonable consideration. Then you provided this response, which I initially left alone, although this time around it needs addressed accordingly...



As if all successful people are completely positive and grateful, and all unsuccessful people are not, and that constitutes reason for the continuance or lack of their success?

I don't think so...

Logically speaking, one must consider actual reality into this subjective consideration of self-manifestation. So, I asked again about actual daily happenstances which involve two separate individuals' manifestation of reality, based upon what I have seen expressed, which affect and contradict each other... OUTSIDE FACTORS... such as those that rabbit has also provided...



To which your response began with an irrelevant and deflective measure that completely avoided a legitimate and problematic aspect that should be considered because it does not agree with your conclusions. To answer the above concern you wrote this...



I do not believe in the manifestation of thought as you attempt to logically describe. There are things which are actual reality which do not make sense according to the descriptions at hand. You have still not answered the question I asked, instead, you provided some sort of irrelevant deflective measure which seemed to be some sort of personal retort aimed directly at me as a person rather than considering the issue at hand.


Then you continued along this line of thought, which had become personally aimed at me, with this...



That just displayed beyond a doubt that you are not only quick to assume, but have no idea who I am, and perhaps fail to understand the true reasons for why you perceive things as you do.

When I said "YOU" I meant everyone. It was a general statement. It was not aimed at you personally. I am sorry you took it that way.

**************************************************************

Anytime you blame "outside factors" for your life situation you are not taking 100% responsibility for your life and experiences.

**************************************************************

I do not look for "agenda" in short statements. I only look for agenda in substantial works (larger books etc.)

In short statements I look at the statement itself.. as a whole.. and try to understand it's literal meaning without assumptions of any kind.

I do not take it personally.



**************************************************************



The above statement is true IMO.

But when I stated that people "have not learned how to be completely positive or grateful for what they have" I did not mean that you HAD TO BE COMPLETELY positive to be successful or that ALL unsuccessful people were not COMPLETELY POSITIVE.

Those are absolutes like never or always... I don't like to use them.

Your interpretation:



No, I did not say that.



I think we have been over this same question before. I am sorry you did not understand or comprehend my answer at that time.

Everything works together as a whole. There is no outside factor. Things within the whole have parts that do conflict, and things consume each other. (It is a dog eat dog type of world.)

If you want to think that "thought" has nothing to do with manifesting the "real world" I would like you to try to manifest anything without it.

Thought has everything to do with it. Thought is on the leading edge of creation itself. Opposing thoughts will manifest as opposites. Opposites can cancel each other out or one wins over the other. Therein is the conflict and chaos of this world.

Who do you wish to blame? Who besides yourself do you wish to blame?

continued below........

JB

Well Abra....

the difference between us isnot just opinions and carnal understanding being selectively coherent, nor about my capacity to grasp concepts in a favorable light for conformity's sake, let alone anything selfwilled.

It says seek Him til you find Him, and that I did.

What has apprehended me is not a meritorious comprehension, but a conversation with the author. The author being the one congruent voice that spoke to the writers or their ancestors, not the ancestors themselves, nor their own interpretations.

But the attitude and the belief that God favors anything about me or of me more than you has nothing to do with what I write to you. And you know better. You certainly do know that I don't ever claim the worthiness required to pontificate on the works of other men. Play stupid all you wish.

But selling your diatribe is offensive, Abra. The delusions favoring your own opinions and interpretations make your laughable commentaries wanting and nothing more tan an incessant whine about something that ought to be beneath your dugnity to give your pontificant contempt to were it but drivel and inconsequential.

You are clearly of a minority licentiousness in taking upon yourself the debunking of things elitist in their appeal and clearly not universally inclusive in a timeless way, let alone a legitimate way.

Nor am I selling anything to the wary.

I am checking you, my friend.

You remain out of line and incoherently osbstinate to know better for all.

Perhaps putting words in the mouths of others justifies your own incredulity to you and those that wish to embrace their own brand of deceptive admonitions disguising the very contempt of respectful discourse and rightful judgement.

You by no means are an authority on that which you contemptuously renounce.

Renounce what you will and rest in your peace with it.

But clearly, Abra, your renunciations only display your unrest and turmoil and your displays are nothing more.

Check in sometime....with yourself.

zYour contemptiblitiy is only strife and contention.

That JSH enjoys the pleasure of your comapany for its monetarily free access does not give you the privelege of being a thorn, it gives you the pprivelege of being substantially more and at no cost to you.

Choose wisely, my friend.

Wiseguys are everywhere.

Actual reality? What would that be? Things that you can actually see, touch and feel? Objective things? I am going to assume yes.

(How do you separate this actual reality with the unseen thought and unknown actions that went into the manifestation of it? These are unknowns but they are still real.)

You ask about "actual daily happenstances" which involve two "separate individuals manifestation"~of reality,... which effect and contradict each other... ~~Outside factors.. etc.

Answer:

What you are actually seeing, which you are calling "actual reality" are results.

They are the manifestations and the end results of the thoughts and actions which set them in motion... which you did not see.

Because you did not see them, you do not understand how these things could happen. Because you did not see them and do not understand them does not make them unreal or separate from the appearances of what you do see.

JB

I see no value in continuing this conversation with you JB...



No need to be sorry, JB. I understood it. It is not in me to continue this, because it would inevitably lead where it led the last time.



I don't know anything...

That's ok with me...



Be well, JB...