any welfare is a socially liberal stance. reform just makes you slightly less liberal. i know you support welfare in many cases. care to try for another?

also, are you actually blaming a democratic administration for 9/11? I just want to make sure I'm reading that right.


As for reasons this program will fail:
1. Supply shortage. in short, increase demand while supply remains, you get a price increase. artificially limit the price by government intervention (through a "public option" included) and you create a ceiling. price ceiling = supply shortage.

2. Lack of providers. Right now, doctors are loaded. yes, the uninsured still get care, but only at ERs. We're talking a 15% increase in usage of the preventative care system. I'm pretty sure the number of physicians is not going to increase 15%

3. Taxation. I'm told this program will not increase our debt one single dime. i don't believe it. however, in an attempt to make it happen, taxes will naturally rise. there is no other way to do it. taxing those that receive benefits already will lessen household income. that will have all kinds of fun ripple effects across the economy. so will taxing businesses as that cuts their funds as well. kiss a few jobs goodbye there for the low-level corporate employee. hope his buddies enjoy their care.

4. It's been proven time and time again the government has not been able to sustain any kind of program of this nature, even on a small scale, efficiently. Medicare anyone? Social Security? Medicaid? Every government budget for the last several decades has run into the red, moreso than planned. Remember cash for clunkers recently? it was expected to last 2-3 months and instead lasted 2-3 weeks. Then the additional 2 billion was to last until labor day but still ran out a week and a half early. The government accountants are never right.

5. The government does not have to make a profit. Furthermore, the government can't make a profit by it's nature. That means any public option will have a severe unfair advantage over any public plan that needs to make a profit, and even those that do not have to make a profit like Kaiser Permanente. While I'm told the plan will be self-sustaining, I was also told there were WMDs in Iraq and that if we didn't spend this $787B that the unemployment would rise over 8% and the economy would go into a tailspin. They still haven't dished out 15% of it and we're still here. Also, no WMDs. The government has a bad habit of saying what's pretty and it not being true.

6. A lack of reform. There are problems with the system... duh. any idiot with a third grade education can see that. however, we should not be throwing money at the system without taking care of the symptoms that put us in this place to begin with. start with tort reform. you lose an arm when they save your life. So what? Is that arm really worth 10 million dollars? absolutely not. you may lose out in a a couple million in wages over your lifetime and add another 50% for the inconvenience, but you're still far, far less than what juries have made standard practice. fraud and malpractice insurance has made the costs of the system skyrocket. fix the problems that exist now before wasting all this money on a broken system. The end (coverage for all) does not justify the means (billions and billions wasted)


there are my brief summaries of my arguments. if you disagree, please explain holes in my logic and post a little more than "that's not true" or "you're wrong"

Do me a favor then:

Name one, just one economically conservative principle you agree with.


And then explain to me why this healthcare plan will not fail.

We are far from the worst. Japan and China both were hit with double-digit contractions that were far larger than ours.

I'm sorry, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

actually, they can force it on us. That is how america works when you control both the executive and legislative branches.

and dude, please refrain from the name calling and stereotyping... it makes the rest of us fiscal conservatives look bad. The message itself is good, just stick to it instead lol

There are several very good points to be made that most are not currently addressing... commercial real estate normally trails the housing segment and has been sitting there, teetering for a while now. any slight downturn will bring that segment down fast.

apparently you missed the balance sheet where the war was a very small portion of our deficits. there was far more to it.

care to elaborate why?

Nobody ever said we would do this willingly... China has been looking for a way to force this on us for many months now.

The USD being the world standard helps us more than anything because it provides the best safe havens for investment. We trade on our market and on the world market in the USD. In order for other nations to trade, they must first trade for USD, then for the commodities. Therein lies our strength in the efficiency.

We lose that world currency standard, we lose our economic clout very soon thereafter. Costs and regulation in our nation have forced the outsourcing of many goods in order to be competitive and we really manufacture very little. The world needs our innovation but not much else. Innovation is not often protected on a world scale.

For once, I agree with you.


When this whole system tanks and the program is sitting in shambles in a few years, I really want to be able to point a finger when they really have nobody else to blame and say "I f**king told you so"

Ignoring the last line, I must disagree to an extent. You can in fact fight a war and cut taxes, provided you cut elsewhere. The war and taxes were less than half the deficit of the last 8 years. There was far more to it. Either way, necessary cuts were not made.

And stop acting like everyone else was so high and mighty and this was all bush's fault. it's been in the works for decades.

For no other reason than that? really?

I honestly heard nothing new. It was all the same old talking points that he's said before compiled into one speech.

I really want to see a debate about this between him and a prominent opponent from the Republicans. He's never given any real details or done anything but regurgitate the same old lines... I want him to really defend this plan, not just try to sell it.

So, we will likely lose over 25% of what we gave to the automotive industry. $23 billion to be exact...nine zeros. And that's the estimate from the TARP panel... CBO thinks it'll be far more.

Way to go guys. you own almost two thirds of a company that will now have to rise to a value it has never before seen, just to break even. Guess you botched the math on that one.

I wonder what it's like to have a job where you can be so wrong and yet, still have a job.

Unless you run frequently... I have done nothing to watch my carbs and in fact, eat pretty much nothing but carbs and protein with minimal fat and have been on a 3 lb lost per week average for almost two months now. carbs are essential for any longer period aerobic activity as a good supply for the body decreases muscle breakdown (or so my health class told me lol)

That's what I was just thinking... I barely have the time to get in 30 lol

I realize this is entirely a philosophical topic, but what is to determine morals? Some supposed being that shakes a finger at us from some mythical place far, far away that you, but I do not believe in? I am supposed to allow your beliefs determine my morals?

My morals are to respect the liberties of others. Teaching this does not violate those morals, but preventing even the option does.

Economic stability has nothing to do with recession. It has to do with the conduct of the monetary actions of the nation. We are spending borrowed money hand over fist. The economic instability has to do with how rapidly we are accumulating debt that will build on itself until we essentially are borrowing more than we are taking in...oh, wait a minute... we already do that...

the instability is how close we are to a total collapse or at the very least, the start of the part of falling into the hole where we can no longer climb back out. at our current rate, we will nearly have a debt to GDP ratio of 1 by the end of Obama's first term and will be paying almost half our federal income on the interest on that debt. If that does not scare you, there is nothing that can be done to make you see the problem in all of this.

It's not that I'm flat out saying that it was not his original speech, it's just that there was absolutely zero mention of anything remotely political... far less than you would ever hear in any politician's speech. I never suspected it to to be an attempt to brainwash the children because as has been said, he's not the first, but I did not expect it to be written so cleanly as to avoid controversy. I just suspect there was extra care there after everyone started to protest.

I have to say that the ignorance and intolerance of this post disgusts me. I wanted to stay out of this, but i just can't. While I'm sure your opinion is deeply rooted in some religious dogma, you are adovcating exactly what you protest.

The irony of arguing how it is wrong to force people to learn about gay and lesbian lifestyles (which, in case you haven't noticed, are different than child molesters as nobody is actually hurt and it's completely consentual) is exactly what you are suggesting in giving only the traditional view of couples. You can't say it's wrong to force one thing but then force another on the child.

Yes, I believe it should be taught alongside regular sex education that some choose to be/are born/whateverthef*ck gay. There is nothing wrong with that. A parent should, however, at least be allowed to pull their child if they so desire. I believe it does nothing to prevent intolerance and hatred, but that has to start in the home anyway.

It's not about tolerating everyone... it's about respecting personal liberties. If you don't think being gay is ok, that's fine, but you should not force it on another nor should you spread your hatred as you did above. It is offensive and disgusting and if I see it again, expect a little letter from the mods.