I AM CANADIAN !!!!!!

Humber College Rocks!!!!!!!

Go Hawks!!!

Not all large companies/corporations are looking for handouts.

Canadian bank CEO's gave themselves pay cuts!!


................................................

TORONTO (Reuters) – Royal Bank of Canada's chief executive plans to forfeit nearly C$5 million in compensation as the country's biggest bank looks to weather the global financial crisis.

Gord Nixon will forgo his 2008 variable compensation package, made up of deferred share units and 10-year stock options, totaling C$4.95 million. It is part of his mid- and long-term compensation package at RBC.

He received a cash bonus of C$2.4 million in December, part of his short-term incentive package and down 40 percent from the prior year. Nixon said he will use the after-tax proceeds to buy Royal shares.

Nixon had a base salary of C$1.4 million in 2008 and his total direct compensation was listed at C$8.75 million in the proxy circular.

Battered by fallout from the global financial crisis and economic downturn, Royal Bank shares hit their lowest level in more than five years last week, but have since recovered a little. Royal was down 1 percent at C$30.10 on the Toronto Stock Exchange late afternoon on Monday.

"I have confidence in the future performance of Canada and RBC, but feel my decision is appropriate at this time," Nixon said in a statement that accompanied the bank's management proxy circular, adding his move was a "personal" decision.

"I believe as the global economic performance turns around, RBC has significant opportunities, given its strong businesses and relative global strength. And, as its CEO and a significant shareholder, I would benefit from any recovery."

Royal Bank reported more than C$4.5 billion in profit in 2008, though down 17 percent from the year before. Results in the latest quarter were down 15 percent on higher loan loss provisions.

The bank missed on its 2008 target to grow diluted earnings per share and return on equity, but topped expectations on its dividend payout ratio.

Bank of Montreal also announced on Monday that CEO Bill Downe would give up both his mid-term and long-term compensation of C$4.1 million for 2008.

"While BMO delivered solid financial performance in 2008 ... my decision to forgo this compensation is a result of my reflection upon the current economic environment," Downe said in a statement.

The banks said Downe plans to invest his 2008 short-term compensation of C$1.4 million in BMO's share units and common stock.

At Bank of Nova Scotia, CEO Rick Waugh's total compensation was cut to about C$7.5 million, down 20 percent from the previous year and in line with the bank's performance.

Due to the "unprecedented" economic environment last year, several key targets were not met at Scotiabank, including its missed aims for EPS growth and return on equity.

Waugh, the CEO at Canada's third-largest bank, will continue to earn a base salary of C$1 million in fiscal 2009, the circular said.

Canada's banking sector, described as one of the strongest in the world, has endured the financial crisis better than many of its international peers, which have needed massive amounts of government aid.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090202/wl_canada_nm/canada_us_royalbankofcanada_nixon

G'Night Canada.

Time for me to imitate a vampire.

Long shift tonight.

We are agreeing on something!!!!!!!

'SODA' Delivery!!!!!!!!

Come and get it!!!!

-5C (about 23F....I think) with light snow.

It's also supposed to be 'release if found innocent' but that means nothing at Gitmo either.

Mount Redoubt, the Alaskan volcano expected to erupt at any time, is getting a bit more edgy.

The Alaska Volcano Observatory said in a statement Friday "volcanic tremor" has increased in "amplitude."

The activity on the 10,197-foot peak is "more energetic than that of the previous several days. However, it is still less vigorous than that observed last weekend," the observatory said.

Peter Cervelli, a research geophysicist with the observatory, told CNN that "every indication is that we're heading toward an eruption."

Cervelli said scientists don't know exactly when it will happen, but if it does happen, it could be days or weeks -- or even hours.

"I would not be surprised to see it erupt at anytime," Cervelli said. "We're going to know it when we see it."

Scientists raised the alert status Sunday to a "watch" level, the second-highest, based on seismic activity detected January 23.

The peak is about 100 miles southwest of Anchorage, the state's most populous city.

Mount Redoubt last erupted nearly 20 years ago, in December 1989, and that eruption lasted until April 1990. Geologists think there could be an eruption "similar to or smaller than the one that occurred in 1989-90.

That eruption spread ash in Kenai and Anchorage, where it disrupted air traffic operations. Cervelli said the ash plumes caused engine failure on a jet.
advertisement

The 1989-90 eruption also spurred volcanic mudflows, or lahars, that flowed east down the Drift River. The ash fall was seen as far away as Fairbanks and the Yukon Territory border

The observatory has set up a Web camera near the summit of the volcano and another within Cook Inlet. It plans to do continuous visual surveillance, measure gas output and analyze satellite and weather-radar data.


http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/science/01/30/alaska.volcano/

You did see where I had posted that Hamas calls to civilians to form human shields and they willingly go?

That is one of the questions will have to be answered. Did the civilians get caught by an illegal usage of weapons or did they actually form human shields?

Did Israel give sufficient warning?

Were people sent to 'safe haven' only to be shelled / bombed?

Did Israel not care, pay attention or did Hamas prevent civilians from leaving?

Can there be an investigation acceptable to all sides?

Finally, is there anyone who would, could bring any party found guilty before a tribunal?


Cartoons and Anti-Israel pictures are not a discussion. They are a rant against Israel. If the people of Palestine depend at all on supporters outside to help them win an independent nation of their own and all that is offered is cartoons and pictures then they may as well give up and get Isreali citizenship right now. Pictures shock...Discussion of ideas, thoughts changes minds and brings forth new ideas.

Victims of Palestinian Violence and Terrorism since September 2000


1,177 people have been killed by Palestinian violence and terrorism since September 2000.



Note: This list also includes 18 Israelis killed abroad in terror attacks directed specifically against Israeli targets, and 3 American diplomatic personnel killed in Gaza.

Not listed are 9 IDF soldiers killed during the ground operation against Hamas terror in Gaza (27 Dec 2008 - 18 Jan 2009).



http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Victims+of+Palestinian+Violence+and+Terrorism+sinc.htm

ISRAELI VICTIMS OF TERRORISM

Terror Victims September 2000 - November 2001 Terror Victims

Islamic Terrorism David Biri - Sept 27, 2000 Islamic Terrorism
Yossi Tabaja - Sept 29, 2000
Yosef Madhat - Oct 1, 2000
Wichlav Zalsevsky - Oct 2, 2000
Max Hazan - Oct 2, 2000
Hillel Lieberman - Oct 8, 2000
Terror Victims Yosef Avrahami - Oct 12, 2000 Terror Victims
Vadim Norzhich - Oct 12, 2000
Rabbi Binyamin Herling - Oct 19, 2000
Marik Gavrilov - Oct 28, 2000
Eish-Kodesh Gilmore - Oct 30, 2000
Amos Machlouf - Oct 30, 2000
David-Hen Cohen - Nov 1, 2000
Shlomo Adshina - Nov 1, 2000
Amir Zohar - Nov 1, 2000
Ayelet Hashahar Levy - Nov 2, 2000
Hanan Levy - Nov 2, 2000
Noa Dahan - Nov 8, 2000
Shahar Vekret - Nov 10, 2000
Avner Shalom - Nov 11, 2000
Sarah Leisha - Nov 13, 2000
Elad Wallenstein - Nov 13, 2000
Amit Zaneh - Nov 13, 2000
Gabi Zaghouri - Nov 13, 2000
Baruch (Snir) Flum - Nov 18, 2000
Sharon ****oubi - Nov 18, 2000
Miriam Amitai - Nov 20, 2000
Gavriel Biton - Nov 20, 2000
Itamar Yefet - Nov 21, 2000
Shoshana Reis - Nov 22, 2000
Meir Bahrame - Nov 22, 2000
Edward Matchnik - Nov 23, 2000
Terror Victims Samar Hussein - Nov 23, 2000 Terror Victims
Sharon Arameh - Nov 24, 2000
Ariel Jeraffi - Nov 24, 2000
Rina Didovsky - Dec 8, 2000
Eliyahu Ben-Ami - Dec 8, 2000
Tal Gordon - Dec 8, 2000
Eliahu Cohen - Dec 21, 2000
Gad Marasha - Dec 28, 2000
Yonatan Vermeulen - Dec 28, 2000
Binyamin Zeev Kahane - Dec 31, 2000
Talia Kahane - Dec 31, 2000
Ron Tzalah - Jan 14, 2001
Ofir Rahum - Jan 17, 2001
Motti Dayan - Jan 23, 2001
Etgar Zeitouny - Jan 23, 2001
Akiva Pashkos - Jan 25, 2001
Arye Hershkowitz - Jan 29, 2001
Lior Attiah - Feb 1, 2001
Shmuel Gillis - Feb 1, 2001
Rujayah Salameh - Feb 5, 2001
Tzachi Sasson - Feb 11, 2001
David Iluz - Feb 14, 2001
Yasmin Karisi - Feb 14, 2001
Rachel Levy - Feb 14, 2001
Ofir Magidish - Feb 14, 2001
Alexander Manevitz - Feb 14, 2001
Kochava Polanski - Feb 14, 2001
Simcha ****rit - Feb 14, 2001
Julie Weiner - Feb 14, 2001
Mordechai Shefer - Feb 26, 2001
Claude Knap - Mar 1, 2001
Naftali Dean - Mar 4, 2001
Yevgenya Malchin - Mar 4, 2001
Shlomit Ziv - Mar 4, 2001
Baruch Cohen - Mar 19, 2001
Shalhevet Pass - Mar 26, 2001
Naftali Lanzkorn - Mar 28, 2001
Eliran Rosenberg-Zayat - Mar 28, 2001
Ya'akov Krenschel - Apr 1, 2001
Danny Darai - Apr 2, 2001
Stanislav Sandomirsky - Apr 21, 2001
Mario Goldin - Apr 22, 2001
Shlomo Elmakias - Apr 28, 2001
Assaf Hershkovitz - May 1, 2001
Arieh Agranionic - May 8, 2001
Ya'acov (Kobi) Mandell - May 9, 2001
Yosef (Yossi) Ish-Ran - May 9, 2001
Constantin Straturula - May 10, 2001
Virgil Martinesc - May 10, 2001
Idit Mizrahi - May 15, 2001
Tirza Polonsky - May 18, 2001
Vladislav Sorokin - May 18, 2001
Yulia Tratiakova - May 18, 2001
Miriam Waxman - May 18, 2001
David Yarkoni - May 18, 2001
Yair Nebenzahl - May 18, 2001
Asher Iluz - May 23, 2001
Yosef Alfasi - May 25, 2001
Gilad Zar - May 29, 2001
Sarah Blaustein - May 29, 2001
Esther Alvan - May 29, 2001
Zvi Shelef - May 31, 2001
Marina Borokovsky - June 1, 2001
Roman Dezanshvili - June 1, 2001
Ilya Gutman - June 1, 2001
Anya Kazachkov - June 1, 2001
Katherine Kastaniyada-Talkir - June 1, 2001
Aleksei Lupalu - June 1, 2001
Mariana Madbaneko - June 1, 2001
Terror Victims Irina Nefminiyashachi - June 1, 2001 Terror Victims
Yelena Nelimov - June 1, 2001
Yulia Nelimov - June 1, 2001
Raisa Nimrovsky - June 1, 2001
Diez (Dani) Normanov - June 1, 2001
Simona Rodin - June 1, 2001
Ori Shahar - June 1, 2001
Liana Sakiyan - June 1, 2001
Maria Tagilchev - June 1, 2001
Irena Usdachi - June 1, 2001
Roman Gurokhovsky - June 2, 2001
Yael-Yulia Sklianik - June 2, 2001
Jan Bloom - June 3, 2001
Yehuda Chaim Shocham - June 11, 2001
Gur Pzipokatsatakis - June 13, 2001
Doron Zisserman - June 18, 2001
Danny Yehuda - June 18, 2001
Terror Victims Yevgenia Dorfman - June 19, 2001Terror Victims
Ilya Krivitz - June 21, 2001
Shoshana Ben-Yishai - Nov 4, 2001
Menashe (Meni) Regev - Nov 4, 2001
Capt. (Res.) Eyal Sela - Nov 6, 2001
Hadas Abutbul - Nov 9, 2001
Aharon Ussishkin - Nov 11, 2001
St.-Sgt. Barak Madmon - Nov 24, 2001
Noam Gozovsk - Nov 27, 2001
Etty Fahima - Nov 27, 2001






All the images in the world are not a discussion. There are images of kids, women etc in Israel who are victims as well. Those images aren't a discussion either.

When the thread was started it was about the near impossibility of bringing either side before a tribunal for war crimes not just Israel!!!!!

Since it seems that Israel is also being 'tried' here for the past then in fairness the other side must also be presented.

..........................................................

THIRTY-NINE Jews were killed by Arab rioters at Haifa's oil refinery on December 30, 1947. On January 16, 1948, 35 Jews were killed trying to reach Gush Etzion. On February 22, 44 Jews were murdered in a bombing on Jerusalem's Rehov Ben-Yehuda. And on February 29, 23 Jews were killed all across Palestine, eight of them at the Hayotzek iron foundry.

Thirty-five Jews were murdered during the Mount Scopus convoy massacre on April 13. And 127 Jews were massacred at Kfar Etzion on May 15, 1948, after 30 others had died defending the Etzion Bloc.

IN ARAB countries more than 100 Jews were also massacred and synagogues were burned in Aleppo and Aden, driving thousands of Jews from their homes.

Back in Palestine many small kibbutzim were subjected to attacks, including Gvulot, Ben-Shemen, Holon, Safed, Bat Yam and Kfar Yavetz - all in December. In January and February, it was the turn of Rishon Lezion, Yehiam, Mishmar Hayarden, Tirat Zvi, Sde Eliahu, Ein Hanatziv, Magdiel, Mitzpe Hagalil and Ma'anit.

In March and April these attacks culminated with an assault on Hartuv by 400 Arabs based in the village of Ishwa and an attack on Kfar Darom by members of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Arab attackers also bombed The Palestine Post in February. In March, the Jewish Agency, the Solel Boneh building in Haifa and an Egged bus were also bombed.

SOME OF today's scholars prefer to present every massacre of Jews as a "response" to some Jewish deed, and to portray as a "myth" the very idea that Israel struggled desperately for existence in 1948.

But it was no myth.

The fact is 1,256 Jews were killed in five months. Even before the first Arab villages were captured in April, 924 Jews had already been killed. Ilan Pappe should have pondered what might have been if those Jews had not been slaughtered.


http://www.engageonline.org.uk/blog/article.php?id=1353


Killing of medical personnel....


Hadassah medical convoy massacre - The Attack

On April 13, a convoy of 10 vehicles, mostly consisting of unarmed Jewish doctors, nurses, medical students and lecturers set off for the hospital in the early morning. At approximately 9:45, the leading vehicle was hit by a mine and the convoy came under attack by Arab irregular forces. Five of the vehicles were able to flee, but five others, including two buses and an ambulance, were unable to escape the ambush and were subject to constant machine gun fire from the surrounding Arabs, despite passengers waving a white flag. After the buses began to leak gasoline, they were set on fire by Molotov cocktails (petrol bombs) thrown by the irregulars, their inhabitants still inside.

For nearly seven hours, the British refused to intervene, and failed to even bring Jacques de Reynier, the Red Cross representative in Jerusalem, to the scene to negotiate a cease-fire. The British also attempted to stop the Haganah from mounting a rescue operation, and the eventual attempts by the Palmach (an arm of the Haganah) to rescue the convoy were unsuccessful. The attack continued for over six hours before the British finally stopped it at around 4:30. Altogether approximately 77 Jews were killed by gunfire or were burnt when several vehicles were set alight.


http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Hadassah_medical_convoy_massacre_-_The_Attack/id/5109158


A history of Gush Etzion and the Massacre of Kfar Etzion

http://www.zionism-israel.com/Gush_Etzion_Massacre.htm


Haifa Refinery Riots
December 1947

http://www.mideastweb.org/refriots.htm


Arab assaults on the Jews of Palestine following the 1947 UN partition plan

http://www.beyondimages.info/b206.html

..............................


Just some of the Massacres of Jews.

However..regarding the GAZA CONFLICT WHICH JUST ENDED IN CEASE-FIRE ..... What are the chances of either side being brought before a tribunal?

It is very difficult to condemn Israel for 'indiscriminate' use of force when civilians willingly form human shields around what may be potential targets.

There is the possibility that Israel will be found to have used WP in areas it shouldn't have.



These are the things to look at.

If brought before an International Tribunal the historical acts of either side won't be in consideration as they are not a direct part of the action that just ended. They may be root causes for what is happening but not direct, integral actions of what just transpired.


Since no-one will trust / believe an Israeli investigation of itself or an American investigation, the Israelis will not accept an internal one by Palestine and neither will accept one done by the United Nations or EU then what?

Yup. Everyone in Gitmo is a terrorist and they all deserve what they get.

Does that include the guards and other staff?

Does that include interrogators sent in to 'obtain' information?



................................................


Omar Khadr is a Canadian citizen born in Ottawa, Ontario in 1986. Omar has been in the custody of the United States Department of Defense since he was 15 and has been detained at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba since he was 16 years old. The United States alleges that Omar’s father took him to meet Al-Qaeda leaders when Omar was ten years old, that he received military training, and fought in Afghanistan. In July 2002, Omar was captured by the U.S. military after its forces bombed and assaulted the compound in which he was living. The U.S. raid and subsequent firefight resulted in
the death of a U.S. soldier and Omar being severely wounded.

Thereafter, he was detained at Bagram Air Base and was subjected to cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment and torture.

At the age of 16, Omar was sent to the U.S. detention facility in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. While detained, Omar was subjected to excessively harsh interrogation methods in violation of international law, including: shackling in painful stress positions for hours on end; beatings by guards; express threats of rendition to third countries for the purposes of torture; solitary confinement for lengthy periods; and confinement in extremely cold cells. While other minors at Guantánamo were segregated from the adult population and ultimately repatriated, Omar has never received any age-appropriate treatment. In nearly five years of imprisonment, Omar has only once been permitted contact with his
family.

In November 2004, pursuant to an Executive Order establishing military commissions, the U.S. government charged Omar with murder, attempted murder, conspiracy, and aiding the enemy. The U.S. Supreme Court subsequently invalidated the military commissions system as contrary to U.S. law and the Geneva Conventions. In February of 2007 Omar was recharged under the new system
established by the Military Commissions Act of 2006 (MCA). On June 4, 2007, those new charges were dismissed. The Military Commissions judge determined that the Military Commission did not
have jurisdiction to try Omar as an “unlawful enemy combatant” based on his prior designation by the Combat Status Review Tribunal as an “enemy combatant.” This ruling The US government appealed
this ruling on July 3, 2007 to a Court of Military Commissions Review, an appellate body constituted by the government in response to the dismissal of charges.

Despite having had charges against him dropped twice, Omar has been continuously held by the U.S. for nearly five years, much of it without being charged or provided access to lawyers. Moreover, it remains the position of the U.S. government that even if acquitted by a military commission, Omar could remain imprisoned at Guantánamo for the rest of his life.

Every Western democracy, except Canada, has criticized the Guantánamo detention center and the military commissions system constructed by the U.S. Moreover, the United Kingdom, France,
Germany, and Australia have all applied substantial diplomatic pressure on the U.S., resulting in the release of their nationals from detention at Guantánamo. For example, British Prime Minister Tony Blair demanded and secured the release of all British nationals and non-citizen permanent residents detained at Guantánamo. British Attorney General Lord Goldsmith explained that the release of British nationals was sought because the military commissions system failed to offer “sufficient guarantees of
a fair trial in accordance with international standards.” Australian Prime Minister John Howard, in the face of public outrage about the illegal detention of Australian national David Hicks at Guantánamo, intervened to negotiate a plea agreement in which Mr. Hicks, who was facing a potential life sentence,
was repatriated to Australia to serve a nine-month sentence.

The military commission framework devalues Canadian citizenship by exempting U.S. citizens from prosecution for war crimes. Indeed, the U.S. Congress has determined that military commission
proceedings are inadequate for U.S. citizens. Only non-U.S. nationals are subject to the jurisdiction of military commissions, leaving U.S. citizens to be tried in federal civilian courts or regular courtsmartial. For example, U.S. citizen John Walker Lindh, who was captured in circumstances similar to Omar’s, was afforded the full constitutional protections of a criminal trial in U.S. federal civilian courts. Furthermore, the military commission rules prevent Omar from being represented before the commissions by Canadian attorneys.


http://www.law.utoronto.ca/documents/Mackin/Khadr_summary-timeline.pdf

So even innocent he stays locked up! Now that sounds like some strange justice.

There are no charges against Omar Khadr. There have been two dismissals of charges against him. Therefore he is being held illegally.

It's times like this that I wish we had a PM who hadn't played lapdog to Bush.


Khadr witness withdrawn to 'cover up' abuse: defence

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20081207/khadr_witness_081207?hub=Canada





Witness says U.S. soldier nearly executed Khadr

Omar Khadr, the Canadian who has been held at Guantanamo Bay since being captured by U.S. forces in Afghanistan, was almost executed by an American soldier, a newly released witness account says.

The account from an army officer, written in a personal diary released by the U.S. military, says one soldier was about to tell another soldier to kill Khadr during the 2002 firefight when he was captured, but other U.S. troops intervened.

"PV2 R had his sites right on [Khadr] point blank," said the excerpt, which had been edited by the U.S. Defence Department prior to its release on Wednesday. "I was about to tap R on his back to tell him to kill him but the [Special Forces] guys stopped us and told us not to."

The Pentagon alleges that after a July 2002 attack by U.S. soldiers on a suspected al-Qaeda compound, Khadr threw a grenade that killed one of the U.S. soldiers. He was captured and detained at Guantanamo Bay as a result.

The U.S. military has claimed that Khadr was the only one who could have thrown the grenade. But a defence team discovered a witness late in 2007 who contradicted that claim, and the diary account also says that there were two people alive in the compound after the grenade that killed U.S. medic Sgt. First Class Christopher Speer was thrown.

The officer describes in the diary the death of the other fighter. "I remember looking over my right shoulder and seeing (redacted) just waste the guy who was still alive. He was shooting him with controlled pairs," or rapid execution-style firing.

Defence lawyer Lt.-Cmdr. William Kuebler says the death of the other fighter and the circumstances of Khadr's capture may have motivated U.S. soldiers to alter details in order to protect themselves. He alleges that a report on the incident, written by the region commander, was revised two months later to say Khadr was the only person left alive after the battle.

Khadr was shot twice in the back before his capture, leaving two huge exit wounds in his chest, a witness identified as OC-1 said in February. The Pentagon has said American soldiers fired on Khadr in self-defence. Khadr was still being treated in hospital 10 months later.

The prosecution has acknowledged the memo was updated, but said the changes were simply to reflect that Khadr survived his injuries.

The Toronto-born Khadr, who was 15 when he was wounded and captured, is expected to be tried in a military court at Guantanamo in the summer.

Also Wednesday, Khadr's chief interrogator for three months at the U.S. facility in Bagram, Afghanistan, identified as Sgt. Joshua Claus, has been given immunity from prosecution for any possible abuse of Khadr in return for his testimony at Khadr's trial.

Claus was court-martialled and discharged from the army after another badly beaten prisoner at Bagram died in December 2002.

In an affidavit released Monday, Khadr said he was forced to confess to placate interrogators who shackled him for hours, dropped him and threatened him with rape.


http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/03/19/khadr.html






Shot in the back in an act of self defense!!!! Seriously. I suppose it happens all the time that people attack backwards.

Why would he need immunity if everything that happened was legal and above board?

Hamas Leader Khaled Mash’al: Our Proposal for Tahdiah ("Calm") is Tactical

Posted by thebosun on April 29, 2008

Courtesy of MEMRI

Following is an interview with Hamas leader Khaled Mash’al, which aired on Al-Jazeera TV on April 25, 2008:

To view this clip on MEMRI TV, visit

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1750.htm
.
To view MEMRI TV’s page on Khaled Mash’al, visit

http://www.memritv.org/subject/en/507.htm .

“If The Siege Is Not Lifted… We Will Explode In The Face Of Everybody”

Khaled Mash’al: “Our only real motive for seeking tahdiah ['calm'] and for our willingness to deal with the Egyptians efforts, which were generated in order to achieve a tahdiah, with full knowledge of the Americans, of Rice, and David Welch, and through the efforts Egypt has exerted vis-à-vis the Israeli side, is to put an end to the aggression against our people in Gaza and the West Bank, and to get the siege lifted and the border crossings opened.
“Let me tell you that without all this, all options will be available for us. When the [Egyptian] minister Omar Sleiman comes, he will meet with the other factions, in order to develop a general Palestinian position. Then he will move on to the Israeli occupation, and if they accept [the tahdiah], we are ready, but if the Israelis reject it, then it was not us who offered them this tahdiah to begin with, and the Israeli rejection will be vis-à-vis Egypt.
“Egypt bears the responsibility, and no one in the world will be able to blame us when we take two measures: We will defend our people and our land in the face of the Israeli aggression, and we [will carry out] the explosion in Gaza, of which we have warned. Yes, if the siege is not lifted, the Gaza Strip will explode in the face of all those besieging it.”

Interviewer: “Including the Egyptians?”

Khaled Mash’al: “No, we don’t blame the Egyptians for this. We will explode in the face of everybody. By ‘explosion,’ I mean that the Palestinian people will choose its own options.” [...]

“The Tahdiah is a Tactical Means; It Is a Step Within the Resistance, And Is Not Detached From It”

“People should not assume that in the management of this conflict, we are moving from a phase of resistance and battles to a phase of calm. No.

According to our concept of the management of this conflict, the tahdiah is a tactical means. It is a step within the resistance and is not detached from it

“It is only natural for any resistance movement, which cares about the interests of its people, to bear in mind the general Palestinian condition. At times, it generates an escalation, and at times, it withdraws a little. It is a process of ebb and flow, going up and down. This is how you run a battle. Hamas is renowned for this.

“In 2003, we began a tahdiah, and later renewed the operations. The same thing happened following 2005. Hamas conducted resistance from within the government, as well as when it was not in the government. This is a method of conflict management.
[...]
“My brother Muhammad [i.e. the interviewer], if a tahdiah is achieved – the Gaza Strip was, is, and will continue to be part of this homeland. People in Gaza would be able to recover, and the siege would be over. This would be an accomplishment.
[...]
“They are worried that Hamas and the other resistance factions will use the tahdiah to grow stronger, both in terms of weapons and training, and that the people will recover and prepare for the next round of resistance, because we are talking about a tactical tahdiah, within the constraints I have mentioned. But the resistance, in principle, is not directed against the aggression only. In principle, the resistance is directed against the occupation. As long as there is occupation, there must be resistance.”

“In The Face Of Resistance, In The Battlefield, Israel Will Be Forced To [Withdraw]“

Interviewer: “Israel is not so naïve that it would give you what you want, just like that, so that you can recover, and prepare for the next round. What would make Israel do this, notwithstanding all the important things you just said?”

Khaled Mash’al: “Herein lies the important paradox, my brother Muhammad. At the negotiating table, since Israel holds all, or most, of the cards, Israel will not give us anything. It is not naïve, and will not give anything out of generosity. But in the face of resistance, in the battlefield, Israel will be forced to do so. Otherwise, what made Israel reach the April ‘96 understanding with Hizbullah? What made it leave South Lebanon? What made it leave Gaza? It did not withdraw as a result of any understandings. The balance of power on the ground forces Israel to do so.”
[...]
Interviewer: “Carter stated on your behalf – and later you clarified this – that you agree that if President Mahmoud Abbas reaches a settlement, a referendum would be held on it following a national reconciliation. You agree to accept the results of the referendum, even if they do not reflect your views. This was considered a sign of openness and moderation on the part of Hamas.

“However, shortly afterwards, Sami Abu Zuhri said, ‘We are not obliged to accept the results of this referendum.’ There were contradictory statements within Hamas. We would like a clarification.

“If Mahmoud Abbas reaches a settlement, which he himself accepts, and it is preceded by a national reconciliation, and a referendum is held over it among the Palestinian people – will you accept the results, yes or no?”

“[A] Referendum [Over A Settlement Reached By Abbas] Must Include All Our People, At Home And Abroad – Not Just Within [Palestine]“

Khaled Mash’al: “Look, brother Muhammad, everything you said represents different angles of the same issue, and not different positions within Hamas. First of all, negotiations must be held on the basis of the Palestinian rights. Eventually presenting the results for ratification is not enough. From the very beginning, the Palestinian negotiator must adhere to the [2006] National Agreement Document, and must negotiate on the basis of the rights listed in it. Ignoring these rights is tantamount to violating the documents. This document is a complete package deal, and one cannot deal with only parts of it.

“Secondly, as you have said, this must take place following a reconciliation. Today, the negotiations are held in the shadow of division. Moreover, while all the doors are open for negotiations [with Israel], all the doors for [Palestinian] reconciliation are closed. You saw what happened following the San’a Declaration. When the U.S. and Israel threatened the Palestinian president, the [Fatah] withdrew from what they had signed in San’a.
[...]
“Thirdly, the referendum must include all our people, home and abroad – not just within [Palestine].”

Interviewer: “Or else there should be new election for the Palestinian National Council.”

Khaled Mash’al: “Yes. When all these terms are met, nobody in Hamas – or any Palestinian leader – will have any concern. We will have confidence in the choices of the Palestinian people.”

Interviewer: “Even if you disagree with them?”

Khaled Mash’al: “Yes. Brother Muhammad, I will accept the will of the Palestinian people, as reflected in free elections to the Palestinian National Council, according to terms on which we will agree, or in a free referendum, home and abroad. I respect and accept the rules of the democratic game.”
[...]
Interviewer: “You say: We are ready to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, within a certain settlement, but we will not recognize Israel.

To tell you the truth, it is difficult to accept such a formula. Israel is not likely to give you – whether to Hamas or to the Palestinian leadership, since this is the situation right now – a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, with Jerusalem at its capital, and allow the return of the refugees, while you say to Israel: Bye-bye, I won’t recognize you.

“Why should Israel do this? After all, it is not a charity association. Why should Israel give you all this, and I say ‘give you,’ because this is the situation right now…”

“The Formula Of Recognizing Israel In Advance, Which Was Adopted By Some Palestinians And Arabs – What Results Did It Yield?”

Khaled Mash’al: “This is a logical question in these difficult times, when things are confused. Brother Muhammad, all the formulas are difficult. The formula of recognizing Israel in advance, which was adopted by some Palestinians and Arabs – what results did it yield? Some people recognized Israel, and discussed normalization of relations, coexistence, and so on.

What was the result when we turned to this formula, which seems easier? Did it unravel the secrets of the conflict? Did it drive Israel to respect the Palestinian and Arab will? Did Israel give Yasser Arafat a state, or did it kill him? They killed Yasser Arafat just because he maneuvered between the negotiations game and the game of the Intifada and resistance.

“Now, Mr. Mahmoud Abbas is proceeding along a single highway – negotiations. He recognized Israel and everything, but what was the result? Nothing.”




http://thebosun.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/hamas-leader-khaled-mashal-our-proposal-for-tahdiah-calm-is-tactical/?referer=sphere_related_content/




Sounds like they took lessons from the "Little Red Book" of Mao Tse Tung.


It certainly did explode. With the world watching mounting civilian casualty figures. Planned?


Like all his conditions will ever be met. Hamas has already fought with Fatah because Fatah wanted peace. Hamas not interested.


A result of nothing because the rockets and mortars are still flying over the border maybe?


Hamas has repeatedly shown that it has no interest in Peace. Cease-fire and truce ..... sure, re-arm and regroup. But the fight will start again.

Took some digging but found some interesting information about Hamas and civilian casualties.
This beats repeating Israel's same old rhetoric about defense against rockets or just saying that Israel was careful.

Nothing says it better than the wolf howling about his own presence and actions.


.........................................................


Which is worse: Hamas using Palestinian children as suicide bombers...?
or Hamas using Palestinian children as human shields?

According to the Coalition to Stop the Use of Child Soldiers "2004 Global Report on the Use of Child Soldiers", there were at least nine documented suicide attacks involving Palestinian children between October 2000 and March 2004

According to the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group, in the al-Aqsa Intifada, Palestinian military folk have used children as "messengers and couriers, and in some cases as fighters and suicide bombers in attacks on Israeli soldiers and civilians

The issue was first brought to world attention after a widely televised incident in which a mentally handicapped Palestinian teenager, Hussam Abdo, was disarmed at an Israeli checkpoint

In the Palestinian territories, there currently exists a "cult of martyrdom". From a very young age children are socialized into a group consciousness that honors "martyrs", including human bombers who have given their lives for the fight against what is perceived by Palestinians to be the unjust occupation of their lands. Young children are told stories of "martyrs". Many young people wear necklaces venerating particular "martyrs", posters decorate the walls of towns and rock and music videos extol the virtues of bombers. Each act of suicide terrorism is also marked by a last testament and video, which are prepared ahead of time by the "martyr" who can later reach great popularity when the video is played on television.

Umm Nidal, who sent three of her sons, including one 17 year old, on suicide attacks, said "I love my children, but as Muslims we pressure ourselves and sacrifice our emotions for the interest of the homeland. The greater interest takes precedence to the personal interest." She was later elected to the Palestinian legislature on the Hamas ticket.[10] According to Human Rights Watch,

During a search done on 29 June 2002, of a house belonging to a Hamas militant in the town of Hebron[12], The IDF found a photo showing a Palestinian infant dressed as a Hamas terrorist wearing a suicide bomber's harness.

Excerpts from a speech by Hamas MP Fathi Hammad, broadcast on Al-Aqsa TV on February 29, 2008:
Fathi Hammad: [The enemies of Allah] do not know that the Palestinian people has developed its [methods] of death and death-seeking. For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: "We desire death like you desire life." (THIS IS THE MOST MORALLY BANKRUPT STATEMENT I HAVE EVER HEARD!!)

Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV called upon children to form a human shield at the home of Abu al-Hatal of the a-Shouqaf quarter of Sajaiyeh in order to protect the building from an anticipated IDF airstrike.

Gazan women were used as human shields to allow besieged Hamas gunmen to flee from Israeli forces in Beit Hanun.

The IAF warned Muhammad Weil Baroud, responsible for firing Kassam rockets at Israel, to evacuate his home in Beit Lahiya in advance of an air strike. Instead, hundreds of locals, mostly women and children, were recruited to Baroud's house. Israel suspended the air strike, lest these human shields be harmed. In response to the incident, Hamas crowed: "We won. From now on we will form human chains around every house threatened with demolition."



http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090117035753AA3ziPo

I remember that one from the news here.

The IAF called off the air strike to avoid hitting the civilians.

Though it still raises the question..recruited willingly? Judging from the context of the article and speech one would have to say yes.

Video of the speech on Al-Aqsa TV

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y



Now I will look at Israel and IDF going up a few notches in my mind.

So I have you to thank for this!!!

You could have kept it. I really wouldn't have minded one bit.

If not for Plan Dalet at the outset of Israel they may not have the problems they face now. Again...created their own enemies.





Again..... I have never stated that Hamas was not guilty.


However I believe Israel to to be equally guilty of committing war crimes. Who will have the political cajones to bring them before Tribunal?

I wonder if you you even looked at this previously.

So then this man is dreaming, in technicolor even. He didn't actually find any official Israeli sources and there was no Plan Dalet.


http://www.agenceglobal.com/article.asp?id=1329


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4706543509678082810


Purpose of Plan Dalet

The introduction states:
:'' a) The objective of this plan is to gain control of the areas of the Hebrew state and defend its borders. It also aims at gaining control of the areas of Jewish settlements and concentration which are (1) located outside the borders (of the Hebrew state) against regular, semi-regular, and small forces operating from bases outside or inside the state.''
This passage has been interpreted to mean that Plan Dalet was not really of defensive nature, and that the founders of the Jewish state intended to disregard the 1947 UN Partition plan and secure positions outside the partition plans borders. The Jewish historian Ilan Pappe found confirmation of this in the diaries of Ben Gurion. In his book 'The ethnic Cleansing of Palestine' he quotes Ben Gurion writing the commanders of the Haganah Brigades on 11 May 1948 that 'the cleansing of Palestine remaines the prime objective of Plan Dalet'.
The Plan states :''"Generally, the aim of this plan is not an operation of occupation outside the borders of the Hebrew state. However,color=green] concerning enemy bases lying directly close to the borders which may be used as springboards for infiltration into the territory of the state, these must be temporarily occupied and searched for hostiles according to the above guidelines, and they must then be incorporated into our defensive system until operations cease."
However, in Section 3b4 the plan proscribes offensive operations to be carried out to consolidate the defensive system:
:''Mounting operations against enemy population centers located inside or near our defensive system in order to prevent them from being used as bases by an active armed force. These operations can be divided into the following categories:''
::''Destruction of villages (setting fire to, blowing up, and planting mines in the debris), especially those population centers which are difficult to control continuously.''
::''Mounting search and control operations according to the following guidelines: encirclement of the village and conducting a search7 inside it. In the event of resistance, the armed force must be destroyed and the population must be expelled outside the borders of the state[color].
:''The villages which are emptied in the manner described above must be included in the fixed defensive system and must be fortified as necessary.''
:''In the absence of resistance, garrison troops will enter the village and take up positions in it or in locations which enable complete tactical control. The officer in command of the unit will confiscate all weapons, wireless devices, and motor vehicles in the village. In addition, he will detain all politically suspect individuals.''
Depending on the interpretation of 'near our defensive system' section 3b4 can either be interpreted as defensive or, since 90 percent of Palestine lay within 30 km of the Jewish Mandate area, as extremely offensive. Furthermore the measures to be taken in the absence of resistance could easily provoke resistance, providing an excuse for expulsion. So the actual purpose of Plan Dalet depended on the interpretation of the plan by the Jewish leadership. It is left to the reader, bearing in mind that the war resulted in 78% of Palestine in Jewish hands and an estimated 711,000 Palestinian refugees[1], to judge how the Jewish leadership interpreted the plan.
Walid Khalidi (General Secretary of the Institute for Palestine Studies) offered this interpretation in an address to the American Committee on Jerusalem:
:''As is witnessed by the Haganah's Plan Dalet, the Jewish leadership was determined to link the envisaged Jewish state with the Jerusalem corpus separatum. But the corpus separatum lay deep in Arab territory, in the middle of the envisaged Palestinian state, so this linking up could only be done militarily.''


http://tripatlas.com/Plan_Dalet#Purpose%20of%20Plan%20Dalet



If they resist blow the hell out of them and throw them out. If they don't resist give them a reason to and blow the hell out of them then throw them out.

(1) You are absolutely right nothing wrong there. Take what is not Israel's and make it Israel's in the name of defense.


And if operations never cease well then the IDF just stays there, on land that's not theirs, expropriated illegally against the Geneva Convention.


Sorry but the more I read and learn the less Israel looks like a poor victim. The less respect I have for them. IDF is just Haganah and Irgun with bigger and better toys to play with and eager to try them.



International Law does not specify 'humanitarian blockade'. A blockade is an act of war.



It is just as obvious that Israel is guilty and should also appear before a War Crimes Tribunal.

I started out this thread asking only what the chances were that EITHER SIDE would face a tribunal if war crimes were found to have been committed. It got turned into a "Israel does no wrong".

Do you even read what is posted? 800,000 Palestinians forced from their homes, 512 villages destroyed and 11 urban neighborhoods cleared of inhabitants just to create the State of Israel!! Ethnic cleansing to say that there was no one there when they moved in!!

The methods of Israel haven't changed much over the years. The IDF gets to play with all its toys in exactly the same..we don't care what the world thinks, laws say etc attitude. They are guilty of war crimes.

Israel can maintain what it choses about the casualties. Other organizations like the Red Cross, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty are finding that the numbers don't match. And finding that weapons were used improperly, contrary to International Laws around civilians.

They say that god has given them Israel. This is the same Old Testament god from the Bible. The one whose 'word' is taught, spread by the same Rabbi's who tell, what I thought were professional soldiers, that it is alright to kill civilians! There are no innocents!

Israel needs to face a War Crime Tribunal. It's government representatives, religious representatives and its military.
..It needs to be pushed to 1967 border and kept there.
..Forced to compensate those that it pushed out.
..Forced to compensate / help rebuild Gaza.
..Have restrictions placed on its military as to material permitted and actions allowed.
..Forced to sign and adhere to the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative.



The blockade around Gaza itself is an act of war under International Law.




I don't respect those that have no respect for human life. The use of weapons in a civilian environment not meant for that use, not allowing medical aid to get to areas that need it, attacks on UN building continuing, with WP, after stating that the attack would end.

There was no resolution to the conflict. There is a cease-fire. Not the same by a long shot.

The IDF might gain a small amount of respect when they have a right to it and earn it.