Sometimes X's are a lot like pets... you can't let them anywhere near your favorite things, they s@*t all over everything, and demand to be praised for the smallest thing.


Mmm... catburger. Well that's one way to eat... well, nevermind.

... and I thought we were going to see something about obese felines.

It seems that I don't speak the same kind of English as everyone else... Also, people have these things called feelings, and I apparently don't relate to that very well.

I love apocalypse pony!

Reminds me that I need to catch up on my Robot Chicken clips.

All the time. Do you think it's true?

Finally finished the Dark Tower series a couple months back, then read a few other random Steven King.

Reading Red Mars right now.

Used to read a lot of fantasy, then got kind of sick of it. Terry Pratchett is a brilliant satirist... Disc World novels are in the fantasy vein but are definitely a humorous take on modern problems.

Any Barry Saddler fans? Casca the time traveling mercenary is always a fun listen (get em on tape or cd for road trips... dunno if I would want to actually sit and read them), if you are into that old-school pulp novel sort of thing.

depends on the Christian... I know many that have no love and plenty of fear.

Pray tell, what would the point be of giving people "free will" setting them up to "sin" and then masking your existence, and condemning them to hell if they choose to deny you?

Sounds like a cranky *****y girlfriend more than any worthy deity too me.

It seems to me that as it is right now people believe more out of fear of punishment than actual informed or reasoned choice.

Don't pull it whatever you do.

You are jumping to a conclusion that is not inherent in my post. There certainly ARE benevolent humans, but there are just as many malevolent ones, and quite a large number of ambivalent ones as well.

The statement I made refers too the conditions of ill-fortune, disease, starvation, plague, and any other sort of suffering that comes too mind.

If there were in fact an all powerful benevolent entity guiding and creating the universe, then why would it (being the ultimate power) allow for suffering in the first place?

Either there is an entity of limited power, or an uncaring one. Why does God not cure cancer, or regrow lost body parts?

Pray, and pray, and pray... I have never once heard of an amputee every getting a limb to grow back, and I grew up around some very faithful and devout believers.

Yeah, me too.... Smell Bad!!!

Essentially yes... but more to the point; the (non)existance of any deity is irrelevant. The world goes on its way without divine guidance. If there is some sort of divine hand, it is either inept, or uncaring at best.

A benevolent entity would not tolerate the conditions here.

Well, this case has been ongoing for nearly a decade... No need for the penicillin though. Until "Sky-daddy" decides to answer for their failings in person, I have no need/desire for his/her/its salvation.

You can never prove too me that there is no God, nor can you prove to me that there isn't.

Thanks to science I have the Schrodinger hypothesis to guide my (lack of) faith.... fnord to all of you!

Oh... whether (s)he does or does not exits, God is irrelevant.

Miles:
I think we are on the same track and misunderstand each other.

I won't offer proof that man existed at point near the extinction event. There is no evidence either geological/archeological, nor anecdotal from any religious text that is was so.

I happen to believe that man developed into the creature he is today from ancestor species that survived that event... there is proof that some creatures did in fact survive this.


Funches, and all:
Why not then just consider me your savior, and I will save you the time and anguish and tell you right now you are a good person?

Response to 'Trout:
So is saving the world something an omnipotent and
omniscient God actually cannot do?

If God knows all that ever was and ever will be, then why would he make a devil, and by proxy be responsible for death and evil unless he intended it?

If in fact God has intended this (and so far passed the validity test) then both "good" and "evil" are facets of the divine and part of God's plan. Therefor the concept of salvation is irrelevant as no matter what path in life you choose you are participating in the divine plan and doing the will of God.

Any other conclusion necessarily infers that God is either not Omnipotent, not Omniscient, or at best insane and malevolent, else why would a divine entity create the setting for harm and suffering to befall his creation in a universe he supposedly has absolute control over?


Response to Miles:
Point well taken. There is quite an amount of confabulated doctrine that people take as scripture when it is merely the conjecture of men who claim to know.

Having grown up in (and obviously departed from) a rather fundamentalist denomination I was also taught that the age of the earth, Biblical literalism, and church doctrine were unarguable facts and truth.

It's pretty bad the denomination consensus is that even other denominations in the same protestant tradition are all hell-bound because they don't believe the truth.

Most Christians rely far far too much on faith, and by that I mean faith that the sermons that the Pastor orates is well founded, and that the quoted scripture is contextually intact.

When you critically read the Bible you find many of the traditional views are not valid. It does not invalidate the entire book; there are still many good points in it, and it has a profound historical lesson when properly examined.

In no way does it contain information which is a substitute for fact or reason, nor is it meant too.

You cannot state that the Bible is the literal truth and then selectively tell me which parts are allegories and fables and which can be substituted for scientific understanding.

You can state that it is a collection of traditions, stories, and wisdom passed down through the ages, perhaps divinely inspired that influence your outlook on life, and that's fine with me.

Blatantly state that it is the absolute truth and flawless and prepare to be laughed at.

Well said Abra.

certainly... that's a cheap shot, but given I think in the same vein as those who dole out quoted verse and scripture in lieu of a genuine answer to a legitimate question.

It has a number of contradictory passages, just as the Christian Bible, or any other religious text that adheres to the concept of a "Sky Daddy" rather than philosophical rationalization of existence (Taoist Philosophy for example).

Islam does a much better job of handling this however. Since it is generally a linear and intact document (as opposed to the Christian texts which are composites and not chronologically delineated), latter doctrine is said to override the former, as "Allah reveals his wisdom in stages".

You can review the scripture taken most often as the source of Islam's violent tendencies- Surah 9:5. Keep well in mind that there are any number of chapters and verses in the Bible that admonish one to stone victims of rape, dash babies against stones, and describe instances in which Yahweh ordered the complete genocide of heathen tribes. It all depends on the greater context and ends up being a pot, kettle, black routine.

Religion, like nuclear weapons, and plague is a weapon of mass coercion that needs to be carefully held in check, lest the devious use it against weaker minds to accomplish their own ends.

Christians are welcome to post in any thread they feel inclined to do so, they are not welcome however, to expect that their views are recognized and accepted as truth and fact. Those Christians who can engage in a real discussion about their beliefs without dishonestly obfuscating their logical fallacies, or resorting to quoted scripture as if it were universally accepted truth will find it difficult to bear witness or make their points.

You can hold any faith you choose, and if you honestly admit that any inconsistency in reason is a choice you have made and will stand by, I won't argue (as it would be fruitless), and won't insult you for that...

It is unfortunate that so many are so weak in their understanding of their beliefs that they cannot face even the most minor challenge, preferring to wither behind a wall of self made lies.

QS, you seem to presume that you are bearing witness to those who haven't heard the word... There are plenty that have heard it and just don't buy it.

So what right do you have to say that we can't share our own varieties of faith (or lack thereof)?

AND, if you cannot bear to relate your position with those who are here to discuss from a different perspective, then just how strong IS your faith? Apparently not enough to disregard the jibes.

If you cannot debate with those who question you, then how good of a witness are you for the faith you champion? Surely the Holy Word of God is inherently right and undeniable...

The problem with blind faith, or any sort of faith is that your particular garden variety works for you, but certainly doesn't work for everyone, not even everyone raised in the same tradition.

Unless you are a mentally disturbed person, there are logical inconsistencies that you have to rationalize (lie to yourself about), or omit from your thinking (white-lie to yourself about), or you can question and refute the discrepancy.

If thinking critically about the nature of your beliefs is wrong then your very God who gave you free will gave you something that forces you to sin. How then to you rationalize that?

It is admirable to hold to a belief in the face of uncertainty, but foolish to do so in the face of fact.