Kerry--we don't agree one bit on politics or the nature of that animal but we agree on this issue. Your assessment of what sometimes come off as glib responses to serious questions is dead on accurate.

I asked a Christian friend not long ago about birth/life/death similarities of Osiris-Dionysus and how it almost matched perfectly with the story of Jesus's birth/life/death and the response I got was just sad: "Well, Satan is crafty in that way and even though they were born before Christ, Satan created the similarities in advance in order to confuse the soon to come followers of Christ." 2400 years before Christ (in Osiris's case) and the Devil went back in time to create a future scam? That might be the worst bit of logic I've ever heard.


-Drew

Sam--you would do Neville Chamberlain proud!!

-Drew

MorningSong: The problem here is not an insignificant one. This is a bigger subject than this thread (and has me thinking about another) but you have somewhat ignored the question in my OP. I am actually not arguing at all that "all religions are the same," but rather that they are not. What I was asking is how one reconciles the fact that in certain parts of the world Christ's word is not taught, incorporated into the lives of its inhabitants, or in some cases even legal to teach--and how that squares with sending someone to an eternal hell, not so much because they did not know but because they could not have known.

It is called a "veil of ignorance" and it's not a shot at you in any way but basically it is a premise that argues---"You know nothing about your life, nothing about how much money you'll make or how successful you'll be. You know nothing about the land you will possess or about industry or resources." Now, create a fair tax code. Tough to do because you have no information.

I believe that the same hold true with a number or religions; especially Christianity and Islam. You are asking a person in Saudi Arabia to accept Jesus as his/her personal savior but they are under that veil of ignorance in that they just don't know. They'll never have the resources in a lifetime to study Christianity as you have in your living room with nothing more than a cold drink and a Google search bar.

So, that is really the question--not so much about what the Bible says (though that creates more problems than it solves in this particular situation) but basically about how in a modern age can we expect someone unexposed to "truth" to be found guilty of believing a lie. It is a moral contradiction of the worst kind.


-Drew

This topic really wasn't about "the war" per se but rather about whether or not it was appropriate for a teacher to walk her students into a rather cynical view without context or the addressing of the complexities that all conflicts center around.

The issues around the war are brought up to 9 year olds how about something a little more balanced--at least to the extent that such is possible.

Fanta--there are many threads out there about the war in a more general sense--maybe this thread should be more about the issue at hand--which in this case was whether or not it was appropriate for the teacher to put this subject out there to young kids in such a loaded way?

-Drew

Abra--no worries--and you did not hijack the thread. I understand that conversations are going to drift and at times wander and if they bring up new points and topics along the way, who am I to complain? Thanks for the note though--appreciated. -Drew

Thanks to all who have responded. I am also pleased that it came across as thoughtful (to whatever extent) in that it was not my intention at all to start an argument. A debate of ideas--yes, but not something that would create unproductive conversational issues.

I don't know how to reconcile the claims made by Christianity and those made by followers of Islam. I picked those two religions because they are both monotheistic, but one could very easily substitute another belief system and use the same premise.

So the basic question that I have to those who believe in God is whether or not a person can be a Christian and another a Muslim and both--based on cultural circumstance--enjoy the promises of eternity that both religions claim are exclusive?

If not, how does one reconcile that with God?

I realize that we cannot "know" anything in that the only true way to know is to perish. I'm not stepping up to volunteer for that (and I hope none of you are either--at least right now) but I think it would be the epitome of smallness and cruelty if millions of people spent eternity in hell simply because they were exposed to and taught "truth" that does not level with or agree with the claims made by other faiths.

I think it would be tough for someone to die, reach the gates of eternity and have "God" say---"Well, I saw to it that you were born in a country where nearly everyone was Muslim, where from the time of your birth you were taught nothing but Islam, and in a place where practicing Christianity was just short of illegal but still, I hold you responsible for not practicing faith that includes giving yourself to my Son." The same could be reversed for a person born in Dallas, TX--who reached the same gates but was instead treated in a similar fashion by Allah.

Logic dictates that there is just know way a loving father could ever make that statement. And if that is true, if we agree to some extent on that then how can any one religion make claims that are exclusive, calling all others--wrong?

-Drew

I was reading a book last night by Sam Harris entitled "Letter to a Christian Nation" and part of the first half of the book really got me thinking about religion in a geographical context.

If you are a Christian and were born in the US (regardless of preciously where) I think it a fairly safe assumption that from the time of your birth you had access to or were brought up by biblical books/influences. Following that path you become a Christian and adopt some set of Christian beliefs. It's not that you aren't aware of other religions only that you believe Christianity and the claims of Jesus to be true. As such, you are skeptical (if not outright intolerant) of Islam. Considering you believe in the exclusive claims made in the Bible (primarily that the only road to salvation is through accepting Jesus and the sacrifice made on your behalf) you reject (even if passively) the claims made by the Qur'an.

Now, imagine that you are born in Saudi Arabia--move nothing else in your mind except for your place of birth. Instead of the Bible you are brought up on the teachings of the Qur'an. Again, and because you believe what you are reading you come to accept the teachings of the Qur'an and consider its exclusive claims to be sufficient to build a life around.

This hypothetical isn't hypothetical at all. It happens all the time. In the first case you have been born in a more Western culture. In the second, you are born in an area rich in Islamic teachings.

Now, this is not a post about extremes. This isn't one about Islamic suicide pilots or about Christians who, thinking that life is massively valuable, blow up abortion clinics. This is just about belief as it relates to culture and location.

What I find so interesting about it is that for the most part, Christians are atheists when it comes to Islam. Most do not believe in Allah (at least to the extent that the Qur'an denies Christ as the Son of the one "true" God.) Likewise, Muslims feel the same about Christianity. Furthermore, as a Christian, you feel as strongly that your view of God is correct as a Muslim does his/her own.

So, are beliefs based on truth (use this cased for the reference) or is truth based on being brought up with the teachings of one dogma to the exclusion of all others?

If Pat Robertson had been born in Syria, isn't it reasonable to believe that he would today be a vocal supporter of Islam? Would he have been exposed to Christianity in Syria in anything more than a cursory manner? Conversely if a Muslim cleric practicing Islam in Syria right now had been born in Dallas, TX, is there any reason to believe that he would not have adopted faith in Christ if he in fact had a propensity for faith to begin with?

Clearly here in America one can practice any number of religions. But the US is roughly 75% Christian. In Saudi Arabia the number of people who profess Islam is near 100%. They believe their religion to be true. You believe yours to be true. Both cannot be true as they contradict each other in massively important ways. One of the groups is going to heaven (according to the teachings) and one is going somewhere far less pleasant.

Is this really how God works? From a Christian perspective, is it really fair or reasonable to ask people who from birth have been exposed to nothing more than the Qur'an to accept Jesus as a personal savior?

Just curious.

-Drew

I don't know but it seems that our teeth are duel purpose--front teeth for tearing and molars for grinding/chewing which would seem more like something adapted for animal consumption. I also think it is fairly simple in that protein is generally found in animal products (as are fats) both of which we need some of to live in a healthy way. That is not to say that one cannot live vegetarian or vegan (though I am not sure about the Vegan part as most Vegans I've met always look as if they are bout five days away from Christopher McCandless land) but regardless, it seems somewhat logical that we were designed/evolved to eat animals. Besides, outside of milk, hamburger, and baseball gloves, can anyone tell me what the hell a cow is good for?

-Drew

No, it's all good. I'm not anti-PC--used XP for years with not much in the way of an issue but I decided to try a Mac and it works. At work I use my PC and have no problems. I just know that a lot of folks are not all that thrilled with Vista. Some of that was partner drivers not being ready but some of it had to do with the complexity of the OS and the fact that people were having to add significant RAM to see it work right. But like I mentioned--I use both and both serve their purpose.

-Drew

If she is your friend and you've told her how you feel then it sounds like she needs to respect your wishes and beliefs (or lack thereof.) If that does not work just tell her that you denied the holy spirit--committed the unforgivable sin and that should do the trick. Freedom of religion is akin to freedom from religion for those who do not believe.

-Drew

This type of story is irksome to the extent that the children are nine. At that age (and some more than others) they might be able to grasp some of the concepts of "war" but for the most part I think I would prefer that teachers spend more time preparing young kids for their future; teaching them things like reading, writing, and let me see, how about math. There is nothing wrong with teaching kids about the world in which we live. What bothers me about this story is that the teacher isn't teaching as much as he/she is editorializing.

There are complexities involved that I don't think it reasonable to expect a 9 year old to understand. I am not suggesting they be separated entirely from things that drive the decisions that can and will affect their lives. That stated, I think it might have been a better use of class time to allow kids to share their thoughts on the subject without bending to the utterly simplistic. The problem here is that the teacher isn't exactly lying--just failing to paint the entire picture.

-Drew

Hey, don't you hate it when you can tell someone is VERY judgmental by determining looks based first on clothes, hair and makeup while listing personality last?


-Drew

This song cracks me up--the sarcasm couldn't be any more obvious.


"I Want To Conquer The World" by Bad Religion

Hey Brother Christian with your high and mighty errand,
Your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.
Hey Sister Bleeding Heart with all of your compassion,
Your labors soothe the hurt but can't assuage temptation.
Hey man of science with your perfect rules of measure,
Can you improve this place with the data that you gather?
Hey Mother Mercy can your loins bear fruit forever?
Is your fecundity a trammel or a treasure?

And I want to conquer the world,
Give all the idiots a brand new religion,
Put an end to poverty, uncleanliness and toil,
Promote equality in all my decisions
With a quick wink of the eye
And a "God you must be joking!"

Hey Mr. Diplomat with your worldly aspirations,
Did you see your children cry when you left them at the station?
Hey moral soldier you've got righteous proclamation,
And precious tomes to fuel your pulpy conflagrations.

And I want to conquer the world,
Give all the idiots a brand new religion,
Put an end to poverty, uncleanliness and toil,
Promote equality in all of my decisions

I want to conquer the world,
Expose the culprits and feed them to the children,
I'll do away with air pollution and then all save the whales,
We'll have peace on earth and global communion.
I want to conquer the world! [x4]

While hardly conclusive--several of my friends are running Vista but with 4 gigs of RAM. They have shared that with 4 it is running OK--so who knows with two, though that is sad considering I run OSX with 1 gig of RAM with zero issues.

-Drew

Bad Religion (at least to me) has one of the most extensive history of great poli-social song lyrics.

-Drew

MorningSong--I am sorry to hear about the loss of your friend. I hope that you are left with nothing but the best memories and that those memories help you through the difficulty of your loss.

I read the article you posted and noted the reference to Apple. Having just purchased my first Mac (my PC friends told me--the not so literate computer guy that the learning curve would make my Mac so entirely frustrating that I would soon come back to PC. Yeah, plug in, turn on, have fun really was tough) I can understand the frustration a lot of people are having with Vista. It has been a mess. And that is not bias. That is working for a company whose own IT manager stated when asked if the company would be converting to Vista anytime soon, "Are you F'n crazy--I would like to keep my job."

Five years in R&D and it's an OS most won't run and some cannot run.

No words indeed.

-Drew

Oh, I'd investigate that. With my last PC I had a sound that sounded like a sick fan and in fact, it was a sick motherboard chipset fan. That little bast*rd was dying and dying fast. Problem was, it was a crappy MB and so finding a fan for it was not easy.

Anyway--I would not ignore sounds like that. If your MB goes you'll be in a for a bad day.

-Drew

You can learn (eh hem) more about Bilderberg by going here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1070329053600562261&hl=en

This thread was also started on the political side but to be fair it covers both politics and religion so I doubt our moderators will object.

I watched the entire video and all I can say is--that is an hour and a half of my life I'll never get back.

-Drew

Madison--in that you've invoked a spiritual dimension to your latest tome I trust you'll not hold against me if I should decide to pray that you go back to posting the thoughts of others?

-Drew