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And people call my belief in eternal undisturbed sleep--odd?
:) Drew |
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Doesn't matter if we believe we were born guilty or not. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin, after all? What matters is what we believe, and do, after that. The question is what we will do, not if we're born guilty or not. I just want God to know me when I stand up before him some day. What is he gonna say, you know? If you read the manual, and get a litle help, you kind of can figure out how things go. But being "born in sin" is the entire premise of your faith. It is not how many angels can dance on pinheads, it is central to your faith. -Drew |
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Hebrews 9 and Hebrews 10 KJV No, I get that the Bible tells us that. But does that make sense--common sense (which was supposedly given by our creator) that we were born guilty. I was born crying and hungry but guilty for hanging a Savior on a cross.....please!!! -Drew |
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Creativesoul, I liked your explanation of the whole thing a few posts back. Not quite like the Bible or the church might phrase it, but basically, you got the picture. And it wasn't so much buying us back from Satan but paying the price of our own actions and disobedience so we wouldn't have to pay the price of spiritual death and separation from God. What actions? I was guilty before I was born for a crime I was not alive to commit. In any other realm of life you would reject such logic. (Imagine the bank you go to for a car loan saying to you something like: "Gee, your credit is great, you have a great relationship with us, but because Jon "sinned" and defaulted, we are not going to extend to you a loan.") Unless perfection is the goal and then I guess we can cast banks our with Saviors. I'm not being a jerk, I am really trying to understand. Born guilty?? Really?? -Drew |
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'God' bought us back from Satan? Whattaya figure Satan paid for us to begin with? Do you believe we depreciated or appreciated in value? That whole thing makes no sense to me... 
I don't get it either, CS. I really don't. I have always resented the fableistic nature of dogma. And my resentment comes from having spent more than a fair amount of time fully baptized in their teachings. I don't know--to me it always has come down to a father and sending a son to eternal hell. That is beyond common sense and nature. To make that work you have to embrace myth incarnate. -Drew |
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I have a theory that might actually hold water. 
The Christians won’t like it of course,… It suggests that Jesus was just a highly compassionate man. It goes as follows,… Jesus was born into an oppressed society. He saw the hopelessness in the faces of everyone he met. He was a very bright boy at a very young age and become interested in religion. He wanted to instill hope in the hearts of his brothers. So he began to teach from the existing doctrine, and he spoke with authority, so much so that his own kinfolk accused him of blaspheme. He finally left the area, and went to the far east to study with the Zen Buddhist Priests. He learned the ways of Buddha and of the oneness of all humankind. All the while, he also studied the religious doctrines of his own culture, and learned them well. He could see that there was a prophesy of the coming of a savior to save his people from their plight of oppression. When he returned to his homeland at about the age of 30, he saw that there were many rumors that the Savior predicted in their doctrine was coming (just like there are rumors today that the end days are coming). He also saw that no one was stepping up to the plate to fulfill that prophecy, everyone was merely preaching of the ‘coming’ of the messiah, but no one was actually claiming to be the messiah. So he stepped up to the plate to fulfill the prophecy for his brethren. He didn’t do this in malice. On the contrary he did it out of pure love. He saw that his people were desperately oppressed and in dire need of new hope. So he gave them precisely what they were seeking. I realize that many Christians will bulk at this hypothesis, and even claim that such a deed would have been fraud and evil. But I don’t think Jesus would have seen it that way at all. After all, he was about to give his very life for the cause, and the cause was to give his brethren hope – something to believe in – something to lift their spirits from the abyss of total hopelessness and unfulfilled expectations. He claimed to be the messiah, in very subtle ways at first. And much of what he said was, in fact, not a lie at all. He merely allowed his brothers to believe that he was the messiah for their sake, and encouraged their belief, because it bright light to their eyes and spirit to their hearts. Keep in mind that he understood the pantheistic view, and may have even seen reflections of that in the Old Testaments that he had studied. So tying all his beliefs and understandings of these religious doctrines together he could easily have claimed to be “God” without it feelings as a lie to him in the slightest. In fact, Jesus even said, “Ye are also gods”, and that is the pantheistic view! Jesus could even use the Old Testament to support this view. However, he knew that to fulfill the prophecy he would need to be publicly crucified. His death was no accident. After he had preached to the masses what he needed to preach (most of which is more in line with the 12 laws of Karma than with what the Old Testament had taught), he knew it was time to become the religious martyr that his people so desperately needed. A fate that no other rabbi was willing to sacrifice for his people. Jesus went to the Roman temple and made a spectacle of himself, knowing full well that the Romans would need to confront him. They could not allow a Jew to get away with what he did. So they arrested him, and probably did give him an opportunity to denounce that he was the “King of the Jews”. They knew of his religious claims because he had been preaching them from the mountaintops. His ministry was well-known. However, it was Jesus mission to fulfill the prophecy so that his brethren would have their Savior and their faith in their God would be rekindled. So Jesus refused to denounce the claims that he was in fact the messiah. He did it in such a way that he didn’t even have to lie. He never claimed to be the messiah, he merely refused to denounce the claims that he was the messiah. So the Romans had no choice but to crucify him publicly. And in this way Jesus gave his life so that other’s may be born again in spirit. For me, this is a very plausible scenario. And if this is in fact the truth, then I admire the man greatly for what he had done. Ironically there are very popular Christian ministers who have claimed that if this was indeed the truth, then Jesus was a fraud and a liar, and they would have him crucified themselves for such an act of fraud. But to me that’s totally missing the point. The man gave his life so that his brethren could be born again in spirit. Nothing could be more valiant. In fact for me, I think I would actually revere him more if he was just a mortal man who did indeed give his life for the spiritual well-being of his brethren, rather than being an incarnation of the very God who demands blood sacrifices. This latter scenario makes absolutely no sense to me at all. It reeks of the kind of fantasies that pervades Greek Mythology. Like I say, the Christians won’t like it. And the reason they won’t like it, is because they need the very faith that Jesus gave his life to inspire within them! They need a Savior! Just look at how powerful the concept is! Jesus was no fool. He knew the power that a belief in a Savior would bring to his people! What he probably didn’t have a clue about is that people would still be leaning on him for spiritual support even 2000 years into the future of a modern technological civilization! Wow! What a rush! All from the LOVE of a mortal man who was willing to give his life so that others may believe! He is the ultimate martyr in all of humanity. But only if he was indeed just a mortal man. If he was actually an incarnation of God that came specifically to appease his own thirst for blood sacrifices, the whole scenario suddenly becomes an extremely demented picture of a bloodthirsty God who is at war with a fallen angel.
I actually prefer the image of Jesus as a mortal man myself. But then I don’t need someone to be nailed to a cross just so I can have faith in a God. I already have faith in God without that. That is pretty thoughtful stuff, Abra. No attack, no vitriolic persuasion, just a well thought out post. Nice work! |
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Topic:
Is Jesus for war
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yes he is. look at the crusades a "holy" war or what about the Inquisiton? THAT was man's doing...NOT God's (or women's lol) Drew...to me Love thy neighbor doesn't mean you can't be pissed. i love my mom, but she drives me batty and we get into it My friend--your mom being a bit "batty" isn't an enemy. She might get under your skin from time to time (we all have that capacity)--no, what I'm talking about are your enemies. I think to love them is immoral. I don't think getting wrapped up in hate is healthy either so I don't feel angry. I just think to love them is asking us to do that which is unnatural. -Drew |
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Topic:
Is Jesus for war
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"Loving thy enemies" is as vulgar as it is immoral. If someone hurts my family, breaks into my home, hurts someone close to me--I'm supposed to "love them?"
Please. -Drew |
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Topic:
IRS Stimulus Payments :)
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Anyone feeling a strong sense of indignation over taking the money--please feel free to e-mail with a note indicating as much and I'll be happy to take it off of your hands. But we know that won't happen--spend it and smile or spend it and complain but we know that everyone will spend it. -Drew Rob--you don't know a thing about me. You don't know what I make or what I pay but I will share only that I pay a great deal. I pay my share of taxes and that of a few other people. That I am going to get some of what I paid back is fine with me. I am single with no kids and earn a good living so I'm fine with getting back some of what I personally paid in. My head is not in the sand (nor did you imply that mine was peronsonally) but I'm fine with this. And you know if people don't want it--give it away--send it back, burn it. I don't give a F. Me, I'll pay down what small debt I have. -Drew |
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Topic:
EXTERNAL HARD DRIVES
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For what it is worth--I love the idea of an EX-HD. When I converted from a PC to a Mac I purchased a 320G EX-HD and loaded everything on it then turned and put it on my Mac. I had not used one prior to this and that it was tied to nothing but a USB cable made the trasfer nice. Now I use it as a backup drive and it works perfectly. I wish you well as you move your things but now, more than ever, there is no reason to not have documents backed up. It is just too easy and too cheap not to have backups for everything.
-Drew |
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Topic:
Why
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Maybe there are no reasons--perhaps it is something that can be attributed to a diety "somewhere" but these are questions that are asked and asked and asked again--and rarely answered. And that is not glib. I am sorry for your loss and I am sorry that you've lost so much in such a short period of time.
When I lost my dad 13 years ago (I'm 36 now) I asked a lot of questions. Why? Why did a man who gave his whole life to defense of this nation pass away one year after retirement? But no answers came then and none have since. I stopped looking to God not because I blamed God but because I figured there wasn't much point in blaming what was not there. I'm not angry--not a bitter individual. I am at times cynical and I am aware of that, but I would not spend a lot of time looking to the sky. It might help and perhaps it will help you--but if it does not, just honor their memeories by remembering the best of times with them--and try to remember the gift that was; knowing them. My best, Drew |
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Topic:
Any Info
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Anybody Have The Lg Voyager. Info Please And Pros and cons. Much Apperciated I own one (have now for several months) and I really like it. The touch screen scroll takes a bit of getting used to (at first you'll most likely go to a contact as opposed to moving past it but with time it gets easier to navigate.) The V-Cast Web is not as good as real web but it will take you to places like Yahoo and Gmail (both of which come loaded) and it is 15 bucks a month as opposed to almost 50 bucks a month like a lot of packages cost. The screen is clear and bright and the full keyboard allows for pretty quick texting. The battery life is respectable if you are not blasting music all the time (that drains the battery pretty fast) and the Navigator is a pretty cool feature. It is not a high-powered business phone and it won't sync to Outlook for addresses but if you are looking for a good multi-media phone with a ton of features, I think you'll be happy. Hope this helps. -Drew |
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Topic:
IRS Stimulus Payments :)
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Anyone feeling a strong sense of indignation over taking the money--please feel free to e-mail with a note indicating as much and I'll be happy to take it off of your hands. But we know that won't happen--spend it and smile or spend it and complain but we know that everyone will spend it.
-Drew |
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Topic:
is capital punishment wrong
Edited by
Drew07_2
on
Sun 04/27/08 10:39 PM
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CP is a tough issue not only because of the emotional nature that the discussion can't help but bring forth but also because of the way it is administered. My issue with CP has nothing at all to do with a soft spot for people who commit premeditated murder or because of some misguided belief that such people can be rehabilitated. I don't and they can't (at least not to the extent where their reintroduction into society is a good idea) so feeling "bad" for people who earn themselves a cell on death row is not an issue in the least.
What I have an issue with is the standard that a jury has to reach in order to impose CP. It's not that the standard is too strict but that it is in fact not strict enough. Consider for a moment the primary way by which one can be put to death by way of the state. A jury must convict the person "beyond a reasonable doubt and to a moral certainty." Great, but that is not good enough. CP imposes an absolute punishment. Nothing is more absolute than death. There is no going back, no "oops, we screwed up," there is either alive or dead. When a person is convicted of capital murder they evidence may or may not be absolute. But in order to stick a needle in a man's arm to cause his death--it should, hell, MUST be. In the case of someone like Ted Bundy there was absolute proof. Not only did we have his perfectly matched dental records that confirmed bite marks left on his last victims but we had his own confession (a pathetic attempt to buy more time as he attempted to trade information of where he disposed of missing women in an effort to manipulate and play games with both the authorities and his victim's families) for many of the crimes for which he was charged and convicted. In 1989 in Florida, Ted was put to death. It was both well deserved and appropriate but only because we knew he was guilty. That is the point. We need to have more than beyond a reasonable doubt to impose a perfect punishment that cannot be undone. Absolute punishment must have as a prerequisite--absolute proof. Without it there is a chance that the state could take the life of someone innocent of the crime for which they were sentenced to death. So, imagine you are picked up for, charged with, and convicted of a capital crime. You aren't wealthy so as a result you are "issued" and overworked, inexperienced and underpaid public defender who is handling fifteen cases; you make sixteen. Everything is at stake. Any mistakes could mean your life and you are now playing Russian Roulette with the legal system. You had better hope that your attorney isn't fighting with his girlfriend the night before opening (or perhaps even more frightening; closing) arguments. You had better hope that your attorney gives a damn and is going to go all the way to block the state's attempts to prove your guilt. You had better hope that he is perfectly absolute in his defense of you. If found guilty and as a result you are sentenced to death it is likely that you will linger for many years if not a few decades during which time you'll be able to file appeals. But criminal conviction appeals are not often overturned so it should go without saying that it's much better not to be found guilty in the first place. But the point here is that CP is too arbitrary as it is applied and administered now. Green River Killer Gary Ridgeway was stupidly given a life sentence as opposed to CP which sets the standard. If Ridgeway's crimes (he killed more than sixty women) aren't worth CP then where is the bar? So there are issues and mine are based simply on the moral argument that absolute proof must be found prior to absolute punishment. And I realize that a person's life could be ruined by sitting in prison for life for a crime not committed and that is a weakness to my position. But while in prison (if wrongly convicted) you are still alive--and as long as one is still alive the fight can continue. It is now my sincere hope that some of what I wrote made at least some sense. If not, apologize--sometimes it makes more sense in my mind than it does when I lamely attempt to put word to thought. -Drew |
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Topic:
Geo-faith
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Did I mention... Drew, you have stated what may be painfully obvious to some, but is most probably quite meaningless to those who should notice the wisdom behind what you have just said. Blinded by sheer will. Ahhh, you did, my friend and I caught it--and so with that in mind I don't suppose there is much more that I can do here--at least to that end. It's not that I mind the honest disagreements nor do I consider my opinions worth more than the next person's opinion. So, with that in mind I'll fade to the back of the room on this one. :) -Drew |
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Topic:
Geo-faith
Edited by
Drew07_2
on
Sun 04/27/08 02:59 PM
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Drew...in the soul of every man is a hunger for God...that God planted there. .and God WILL somehow make himself known to all man. God WILL give man that chance. God is a merciful God..and will even reach into the back side of a desert , to reach man. Jesus is for all....once more, Christianity is not a religion...yes we believe the Bible is the Word of God..but still christianity is a lifestyle....about a relationship....not a religion . Man did that. Abra...I never said it is ok to take Jesus out of the Bible and just discard the bible, like you are misunderstanding here. I just said that Christianity is a lifestyle...and the bible is our guide..our roadmap.and every word of that Bible is true. Jesus is the Word. That Bible is the Word of God. I have shared here only as the Holy Spirit has led. I am trusting now , that God, thru His Holy Spriit ,will do the rest now. There is no need to say more. Be Blessed Everyone.....Praying for all....and l Love you all  
And Jesus Loves You All, Too.....
MorningSong--with due respect I think it tough not to consider Christianity a religion. In fact it is one of the biggest monotheistic religions the world has ever seen. Religion is defined as: re·li·gion Audio Help /rɪˈlɪdʒən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ri-lij-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1.a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. 2.a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion. 3.the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions. I'll grant you that the definition above is just one definition and I will also grant you that there is an element of the "personal" in every faith. That you see Christianity as a relationship is more than your right but strictly speaking, it is a religion. Whether it gets to every heart of every man is not clear. What is clear is that according to the Bible there is but one God, and only one way to partake in the enjoyment of heaven. It is not vague nor does it account for faiths that stray from it's Word. All of this brings me back to the initial point which centered around how God holds responsible those who have with them nothing but a Qur'an and have never picked up a Bible? I guess you are right in that there is not much of a point left in beating this up. I guess I just sometimes feel like when people dig (not disrespectfully, but to question) elements of the Christian faith there reaches a point (all too often I feel) where the practitioner of Christianity falls back to, "God loves us all." I just wish that offered me even a small bit of confidence or comfort. -Drew |
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Topic:
Add a famous movie quote :)
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I have an M.D. from Harvard, I am board certified in cardio-thoracic medicine and trauma surgery, I have been awarded citations from seven different medical boards in New England, and I am never, ever sick at sea. So I ask you; when someone goes into that chapel and they fall on their knees and they pray to God that their wife doesn't miscarry or that their daughter doesn't bleed to death or that their mother doesn't suffer acute neural trauma from postoperative shock, who do you think they're praying to? Now, go ahead and read your Bible, _Dennis_, and you go to your church, and, with any luck, you might win the annual raffle, but if you're looking for God, he was in operating room number two on November 17, and he doesn't like to be second guessed. You ask me if I have a God complex. Let me tell you something: I am God.
-Alec Baldwin as Dr. Jed Hill in "Malice" 1993. |
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Topic:
Christianity and atheism
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If the Christian god can do anything, can he make a rock so heavy even he can't pick it up? -Kerry O. There is nothing the Christian God cannot do.....Faith can move mountains remember that......mountains are pretty heavy hug...
IMO, that's one of those 'stop thinking here' type platitudes thrown about when someone wants to give that in which they believe credit for all the good things that happen in the world while at the same time shirking any of the blame. My ancestors had a rather different, grittier saying: "Wish in one hand and **** in the other and see which fills up first." Example: World Peace. -Kerry O. Kerry--we don't agree one bit on politics or the nature of that animal but we agree on this issue. Your assessment of what sometimes come off as glib responses to serious questions is dead on accurate. I asked a Christian friend not long ago about birth/life/death similarities of Osiris-Dionysus and how it almost matched perfectly with the story of Jesus's birth/life/death and the response I got was just sad: "Well, Satan is crafty in that way and even though they were born before Christ, Satan created the similarities in advance in order to confuse the soon to come followers of Christ." 2400 years before Christ (in Osiris's case) and the Devil went back in time to create a future scam? That might be the worst bit of logic I've ever heard. -Drew I know what you mean. I have asked these questions and this is the kind of dumb answers that I have gotten too. Thats how I realized that only a few people understand religion. Most people dont know anything they are talking about.
OMG Mirror, we agree on something. This cannot be--there must be a mistake--wait--OK, I'm coming to my senses--we are supposed to argue about everything. OK, so maybe not and thanks for the response! -Drew |
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Topic:
Iraq
Edited by
Drew07_2
on
Sun 04/27/08 11:01 AM
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Just bring them home : live and let live is a wise motto . Wars are human failures to solve any problem according to wisdom , love and compassion .  .
Sam--you would do Neville Chamberlain proud!! -Drew WOW, that's a bit harsh don't ya think. Ya i guess we can make the relation between Bush, who's (supposed) false war has killed a few hundred thousand people (total body count) to Hitler's concentration camps, taking over many countries and killing millions upon millions of people in attempt for world domination. Sure i see where they must be the same entities... 
Don't worry about it too much Drivin. When Madison runs out of things to copy and paste he tends to revert to comparing Bush to Hitler--an unoriginal charge meant to get a reaction. Madison, please keep up the good work--you do more good than you could possibly know. -Drew |
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Topic:
Ubuntu 8.04
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Why the yawn? New OS's are cool--OK, maybe not "cool" but when it is free and it works, that's not such a bad day. When install goes well it makes it even better. 
Drew |
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