But we are not talking about Turks or Siberians or Armenians or
Chinese or Blackfeet.

The topic of this thread relates to Israel which relates to the
the Jews. As HotRodD says - this is just an attempt to derail the
conversation.

The systematic killing of the Jews in WWII was the reason why so many
Jewish refugees desperately were seeking a safe haven where they could
live without being further persecuted.

From NYT article - Amid Euphoria Over U.N. Vote, Palestinians Still Face Familiar Challenges

By ISABEL KERSHNER
Published: December 2, 2012


At least in the short term, with Israeli elections scheduled for January, things are likely to get tougher for the Palestinians before they get better.

In Jerusalem on Sunday, the Israeli government unanimously rejected the General Assembly’s decision to upgrade the status of Palestine to a nonmember observer state of the United Nations. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu described the Palestinian move as “a gross violation of the agreements that have been signed with the State of Israel.”

In its latest response, Israel said it would not transfer tax revenues it collected on behalf of the Palestinian Authority last month, instead using the money, about $100 million, to pay off about half the debt run up by the authority to the Israel Electric Corporation.

The Palestinian Authority has already been suffering through a financial crisis, often unable to pay the salaries of its employees on time. Palestinian officials said that Arab countries had promised to donate funds and make up for any losses caused by punitive Israeli actions, though it was a shortfall in donor money, largely from Arab nations, that caused the financial crisis in the first place.

Israel’s financial sanctions followed a government decision to build 3,000 previously planned housing units in contested areas of Jerusalem and in parts of the West Bank that Israel intends to keep under any future arrangement with the Palestinians. The Palestinians have long refused to return to the negotiating table unless Israel halts the construction of settlements.

The government has also decided to continue planning and zoning work for the development of a particularly contentious area of East Jerusalem known as E1, a project long condemned by Washington because it would harm the prospects for a contiguous Palestinian state, though privately, Israeli and Palestinian officials said that this last decision could be easily reversed.

Mr. Abbas, for his part, was expected to hold meetings with the members of his leadership to discuss how to begin to translate the Palestinians’ new status into practical steps.

“We are celebrating our dignity,” said Xavier Abu Eid, a Palestinian spokesman. “Our small nation withstood a lot of pressure for something that is our right.”

But the way forward may be fraught with legal obstacles as the Palestinians try to balance their diplomatic victory with the demands of their previous, more concrete achievements.

Israel signed its agreements with the Palestine Liberation Organization, which resulted in the creation of an interim self-rule body, the Palestinian Authority. Asked whether the Palestinian Authority would remain the Palestinian Authority in name, Mr. Abu Eid said: “That requires a decision of the leadership. I think it will not be changed in a day.”

Palestinian officials have insisted that they will not give up the option of seeking to join the International Criminal Court and pursuing claims against Israel, and some Palestinians now expect their leaders to take legal action against the Israelis’ settlement building.

Letters of application for membership in various United Nations bodies and international agencies have been signed “The State of Palestine.”

But the Palestinians may not rush to change the name on the front of their passports to Palestine. Even Mr. Abbas is dependent on Israel’s good graces to be allowed to travel through checkpoints and across borders.

Many Palestinians were hoping that Mr. Abbas would now seek genuine reconciliation with his rivals in Hamas, the Islamic militant group that controls Gaza.

“Unity is the most important step,” said Malik Barghouti, an employee of the authority’s Finance Ministry in Ramallah. “We are one people.”

But if there is no tangible change on the ground, some Palestinians warned, the celebrations could eventually be eclipsed by frustration.

“Most people here think we now have lots of rights,” said Mahmoud Mansour, 22, a student of electrical engineering from Jenin in the northern West Bank, who attended the welcome rally. “When they realize that nothing has changed, they will be angry.”

Well I still don't think I got a straight answer.

I can't see how you can say with a straight face that the extremely
well documented evidence of the Holocaust - the genocide of the
Jews in WWII is in any way like the sun revolving around the earth.

Especially for someone who abhors violence.

With all due respect your figures of 70 million killed by Mao
and 60 million killed by Stalin and 30 million killed by Americans
are not merely exaggerated but are completely unjustifiable
exaggerations. It is never a good idea to cite the highest numbers
you can find on the internet for anything.

The Jews killed by Hitler stands on it own. It is quite simply one
of the worst instances in recorded history of genocide and it was
based purely on religious hatred. It is extremely well documented
and it is no wonder why Jews are concerned and wary of anyone who
tries to minimize it, explain it or justify it.

There is no valid comparison between Germany rounding up every Jew
they could find and sending them to death factories and Palestinians
initiating wars with Israel and being killed in the resulting battles.

There is no comparison between checkpoints and mass killings.

Now back to the UN vote.

Well, there is no doubt that there have been a lot of needless
deaths over the years.

There are multiple inaccuracies in your list above however.

Where in the world do you get the numbers for Mao and Stalin?

I don't know of any credible historical analysis which
would give 70 million killings to Mao or 60 million killings
to Stalin or 30 million killings to the American Indian wars.

I don't know of anyone who would credibly compare war combat deaths
with mass exterminations of civilians in concentration camps
either.

In particular, in your list you seem to be trying to justify the
mass murder of the Jews by the Nazis by citing war casualties and
drastically exaggerated death tolls from other dictatorial regimes
or the Indian wars Why?

There were no mass killings of Iraqis by the Americans, no concentration camps to work them to death under armed guards.
There never was any round up of Palestinians for execution or
any way to compare those killed during warfare launched by
the Palestinians and Arab neighbors against Israel with the Armenian genocide
or the Killing Fields or the Nazi extermination of European Jews
purely on the basis of their religion.

If Israel had not been attacked, in the many wars initiated against
them by their Palestinian/Arab neighbors then there would have been
no Palestinian deaths. If Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad had not
launched rocket attacks, bus bombings and cafe bombings on Israeli
citizens then Israel would never have been forced to go in and
stop it and there would have been no Palestinians injured from those
conflicts either... So... Back to your original argument,
you compare the Nazi genocide of the Jews to pre-Copernican
incorrect views of the solar system.

Do you really believe that?

Didn't get an answer on this one yet...

Don't be ridiculous. If you blow up the images large enough you can
tell that the "flames" look exactly like burning marshmallows.

Palestine UN vote creates nothing but trouble

http://www.humanevents.com/2012/12/03/palestine-un-vote-creates-nothing-but-trouble/



By: Robert Maginnis
12/3/2012 12:12 PM

Last week the United Nations awarded the Palestinian authority a Pyrrhic victory in its quest for statehood. The Authority’s new observer status at the world body creates significant obstacles and unacceptable solutions, and it should move the United States to reconsider its investment in the intractable Israeli-Palestinian dispute.

On Nov. 29th the UN General Assembly approved the de facto recognition of a sovereign Palestinian state which President Mahmoud Abbas labeled its long overdue “birth certificate.” But the UN’s vote has little practical consequence other than to set back the stalled Israeli-Palestinian peace process.

That is the view of the Obama administration. Before the UN elevated the Palestinian Authority to “non-member state” status by a lopsided vote, U.S. Ambassador Susan Rice warned “Today’s unfortunate and counterproductive resolution places further obstacles to peace.” “No resolution can create a state where none exists.”

Ambassador Rice is right about the UN vote creating more obstacles to the peace process. At this point it is unlikely that there will ever be a Palestinian state. Frankly, there are too many obstacles to reach the much ballyhooed goal of independent Palestinian and Israeli states living side by side in peace.

A major obstacle to peace negotiations is the lack of a representative Palestinian peace partner because of the divisive Palestinian political climate. President Abbas consistently fails to offer concrete peace gestures in part because he has no authority over the half of Palestinians who live in the Gaza strip. Those Palestinians are under the heel of Hamas, a U.S.-designated terrorist group, which recently assaulted Israel with hundreds of rockets.

Another obstacle is the animosity average Palestinians share for Israelis. A cursory examination of Palestinian school materials and media reveals a visceral hatred for Jews. No wonder the Islamic Jihad Movement in Palestine easily recruits suicide bombers to kill innocent Israelis and launch rockets at Jewish population centers.

Tens of thousands of Jews live in the West Bank settlements which the Palestinian Authority labels illegal, another obstacle to peace. Last Friday, the day after the UN vote, Israeli officials announced their intention to build 3,000 new Jewish homes in the West Bank. Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat told the Associated Press that Israel was “insisting on destroying the two-state solution.” Besides, Abbas has “refused to negotiate with Israel while settlement construction continues in occupied territories.”

The reintegration of Palestinians who fled Israel during the 1948 war is another obstacle. The Palestinians consistently call for the right of return of millions of refugees as part of any peace agreement. Their return would skew Israel’s population in favor of the Arabs, creating a demographic catastrophe for the Jews.

Further, Israel’s Arab Muslim population is growing at a rate almost double the annual growth of the Jewish population. Right now Israel’s population is about 75% Jewish, which excludes the millions of Palestinians living in Gaza and West Bank. Dr. Wahid Abd al-Magid, editor of al-Ahram’s Arab Strategic Report, predicts Arabs may become a majority in Israel in 2035, which explains former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert’s warning of “a [coming] demographic battle, drowned in blood and tears.”

There is also the matter of the pre-1967 borders. The Palestinians insist Israel return to its pre-1967 borders which for the Jews is a serious security obstacle. That would position Palestinians only a few kilometers from Israel’s economic hub, Tel Aviv. Returning to those borders would also put much of East Jerusalem under Palestinian control, which is unacceptable for most Jews.

Israel’s experience abandoning the Gaza Strip is especially instructive here. In 2005 the Israelis turned over Gaza to the Palestinians and since that time Gaza has become an Iranian outpost, a platform for thousands of rockets launched into Israel, and part of a terrorist arms network stretching across the Sinai to Sudan to Tehran.

There are only a few solutions that might work given these obstacles.

The first two solutions require one of the parties to abandon the land. Specifically, the Palestinians could relocate to Jordan and/or Egypt, vacating Israel much as the Israelis left Gaza. Keep in mind most of the people now living in western Jordan are Palestinian and Egypt previously ruled Gaza’s population.

Alternatively, the six million Jews could vacate the land for one free of such obstacles. After all, Israel became a new nation in 1948 and beforehand the Jews were scattered across the world. The UN established the Jewish nation via the 1947 Resolution 181 and could do the same again in a location elsewhere.

Of course both parties have deep roots in Israel, which makes abandonment unlikely. The Jews trace their history in the land back 3,670 years to Abraham, who, as stated in Genesis 12, was granted the land by God: “To your descendants will I give this land….” The Palestinians trace their heritage back thousands of years in the land as well. But there was never a “Palestinian Arab” nation and no entity called Palestine previously existed.

Another option is to partition Israel into a Jewish state and Palestinian state separated by international peacekeepers. The international community would guarantee security by carefully monitoring the flow of personnel and goods. The other obstacles to peace like the right of return would be tossed.

But a permanent peacekeeper force may not be sustainable and/or effective. The history of international peacekeepers in the Middle East is one of failure. Consider the UN Interim Force in Lebanon: It failed to keep Iran’s proxy terrorist group Hezbollah from rearming after the 34-day war with Israel in 2006 , a war the same peacekeepers failed to stop.

The collection of obstacles and the unacceptable solutions leaves the status quo — a costly, intractable dispute. That is why the United States ought to pursue three primary interests and let the parties spend eternity resolving their differences.

First, America shares a security interest with Israel. The Mideast is the epicenter of global hatred for America fueled by Islamists, some of whom are Palestinian. We should cooperate with Israel to limit transnational Islamist terrorism.

Iran’s role as an exporter of transnational terrorism and its nuclear program threaten Israel and American interests. Therefore, we should help Israel counter hegemonic Iran through mutual defense treaties and provide aid for programs like Israel’s anti-rocket Iron Dome.

Second, America has trade interests with Israel and across the region, especially vis-à-vis oil products, which must be nurtured. The Palestinians are an insignificant trade partner. Their influence comes from Arab oil producing countries that push an anti-Israel agenda as a proxy distraction from their domestic mismanagement. America should focus on securing our Mideast markets and ignore the distractions.

Finally, given our poor track record, we should be realistic about promoting our values. Specifically, we removed the Iraqi dictator to install a democratic government and now Baghdad is under the sway of our arch rival Iran. We advocated democracy and human rights in Egypt and our former ally became an Islamist state which persecutes Coptic Christians.

The Israeli-Palestinian dispute is intractable and the recent UN vote is more fool’s gold. With the ever increasing chance for a major Mideast war, the U.S. needs to confine its efforts to only serve our legitimate national interests which, bluntly, are oil and the survival of Israel.

Nope no fire during the WTC bombings. The flames were photoshopped.
Probably no fuel in the planes.

I heard it was all actually a papermache miniature model that they used
just like when they faked the moon landing.

There are some very serious issues with how we deliver healthcare in
this country and especially when the health care corporations have
incentives to maximize profit this does not always coincide with best
patient care or most efficient treatment delivery.

60 minutes also had a very powerful expose on suits filed against HMA
for essentially having institutionalized coercion of doctors to admit
billable patients needlessly to boost profit.

See it here: CBS 60 minutes - The Cost of Admission

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50136261n

http://books.google.com/books?id=xPR69tBYyWkC&pg=PA84&lpg=PA84&dq=churchill+wahabis&source=bl&ots=gSdek31Mf3&sig=47c4Vu2tfgfUMJzjCRDFnHgxSdc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KK-8UPSFJNHW0gGEk4DIDw&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=churchill%20wahabis&f=false

Never Give In!: The Best of Winston Churchill's Speeches
By Winston S. Churchill

See page 84

Pages displayed by permission of Hyperion. Copyright.

Actually, Zionism is inherently religious. Zionism is defined as
the return of members of a specific religion - Jews - to return
to their ancestral homeland state. How could Zionism possibly have nothing
to do with religion?



Zionism is based in part on prayers said daily by Jews which ask
God to speed a return to the land of Israel.

It is disturbing to say the least.

Dukky, do you really believe that the official history of the
Holocaust is as incorrect as the idea that our solar system
revolved around the Earth?

Are you a Holocaust denier?

Here is how it should really be seen:

1) There was no Arab State or nation called "Palestine" in the Middle East in 1948 or before.

This is true.

2) There was no Palestinian nation to steal.

We find that Palestine was in fact composed of primarily Arab nations with all religions present Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.

3) There was no Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria etc. in the Ottoman empire.

Right there was only the Ottoman empire. The point is that there
was never any independent entity called Palestine.

4) They were all created out of the ruins of the Turkish empire.

Yep. Palestine did not exist as a separate part of the Turkish
empire.

5) The Jews lived in in the region called Israel continuously for 3700 years.

The Canaanites they descended from did and the Jews of course. There were never any other native states there.

6) The Jews were a majority of the population of Jerusalem since the 19th century.

True.

I won't touch the Holocaust stuff in his video, as his assertions are the "official truth". OK.

Horowitz asserts that Churchill unfairly gave 80 percent of the Palestine mandate to the Arabs and implies that the remaining 20% should rightly have been the Jewish homeland promised in the Balfour Declaration. He asserts that the 1948 division broke what was left into two parts, one for Arabs and one for Jews.

This is accurate. The point of the division in 1948 was to have
two states created, Arab and Jewish to live peacefully side by side
and the Jews accepted this but the Arabs did not and instead
attacked the Jews immediately with all the military might they could
muster from all sides. Of course the history is that the Arabs were
defeated and the state of Israel was refounded in 1948.

I do appreciate the sincerity of the response and the effort to
clarify the point of view, definitions and the effort to avoid
a simple ad hominem rejection.

As far as the origin and meaning of the name "Palestine", the
Wiki is a reasonable place to start:

Palestine (Arabic: فلسطين‎ Filasṭīn, Falasṭīn, Filisṭīn; Greek: Παλαιστίνη, Palaistinē; Latin: Palaestina; Hebrew: פלשתינה Palestina) is a conventional name, among others, for the geographic region in Western Asia between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, and various adjoining lands.[1][2][3][4][5][6] The region is also known as the Land of Israel (Hebrew: ארץ־ישראל Eretz-Yisra'el),[7] the Holy Land and the Southern Levant,[8] and historically has been known by other names including Canaan, Southern Syria and Outremer.

The boundaries of the region have changed throughout history, and were last defined in modern times by the Franco-British boundary agreement (1920) and the Transjordan memorandum of 16 September 1922, during the mandate period.[9] Today, the region comprises the State of Israel and the Palestinian territories.[10]

And everyone can read a well documented history of Israel
and the region here!



http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/mftoc.html

Give it your best shot. Stick to the video though - not the usual
ad hominem fallacious argument stuff that is often seen on the
forums. All cogent and accurate counterarguments are encouraged.

So far though most of what I see in the Israel bashing threads
is emotional thinly supported or unsupported claims about Israel
rather than carefully reasoned logic.

Nonetheless, if you can address the points made in the video and
say why they are not accurate it might be more interesting than
the usual regurgitated Israel-bashing propaganda....

Don't forget the link I cited too!
http://youtu.be/dnIKRse86GU

1. We is "everybody". Another way of stating it would be this is
how the situation stands today.

2. The Palestinians are not like the American Indians and can't
reasonably be compared to them. The Palestinians are not indigenous
people. The Palestinians never governed the region with tribes or
any other type of governance (until after the Oslo accords)...
There was never "Palestinian land" and Israel never destroyed it.

3. As indicated above, Israel never "stole" anyone's land and Israel
did not force them out. Israelis bought a lot of land and Israel
captured a lot of land as a result of defensive wars which they
never wanted in the first place. They have returned/evacuated the
vast majority of the land they captured. Sinai was returned to
Egypt and Gaza was evacuated. The Palestinians are all formerly
Jordanians and Egyptians who were never resettled after the 67
war by Jordan or Egypt. The are ethnically diverse and most
Palestinians arrived in the region during the same time the Israelis
arrived in the region.

4. Begin and Sharon were not directly responsible for massacres and
were never prosecuted despite accusations against them. The King
David hotel was a military installation at the time of that incident
- not civilians. The Sabra/Shatila massacres were not carried
out by Israelis but by Lebanese. The accusation is that Israelis
allowed it to happen but it is never been clear or decided that
there was anything the Israelis could have done to prevent it for
certain. So just more slander and misrepresentation on your part.
As you say it is pretty obvious that the USS Liberty accident was
a mistake. There was never any reason for the Israelis to attack
their best and most trusted ally.

5. Finally, I am familiar with the parliamentary process and it is
not exactly the same as bus bombings.



The rest of your comments I find hard to take seriously.

War crimes? Hamas bus bombings, cafe bombings, rocket attacks.

Elections does not mean a functional government when Hamas,
Fatah and Islamic Jihad ignore the elections and settle their
disputes with extrajudicial beatings and killings.

Israeli borders? Look it up anywhere or see this link...

http://youtu.be/dnIKRse86GU