So how does the sacrifice of an animal (or a god) atone for the sins of mankind?

Do you realize that pagans have been doing this for a very long time? Even before the story of Jesus?

Do you know how many god-men were sacrificed for man-kind's sins?

This is a very old pagan ritual.

And who is this sacrifice for? What god demands this sacrifice?

None of that makes a lick of sense.

Morningsong you are very nice. And you say things like "You can't understand unless you are "Born again."

Hey ~~ if being born again means that you loose all of your reasoning and common sense, and are put into some trance where this story makes sense to you, like you are on some kind of drug, or cloud ~ then I would rather not go there.

I would rather think clearly.

(I think people have been told this story for so long and for some many times, they are hypnotized completely into accepting it as truth. )

JB

Jeannie....

none other sacrifice made before,was for ALL mankind...
and none other ROSE from the dead....except Jesus Christ .

And what Jesus did on the cross was the last sacrifice that ended all blood sacrifices...none more were nessessary..God thru Jesus paid it all....

and now...

all to Him I owe....

Jesus loved us that much Jeannie..to take our place, and to bear allll our sins on that cross...

That is a deep deep deep love God has shown for us ....and continues to show

This is not true. There have been at least 16 crucified saviors of mankind in mythology.

As for raising from the dead after three days, I know of two people still living today who did that very thing. One guy is living in Texas and is a preacher. Before it happened to him, he was an atheist. He spent three days dead and came back to life on a slab just about to be cut open for an autopsy.

Nobody called him a God for that.




It was supposed to be the last blood sacrifice, but it wasn't. The practice is still done to this day with lambs and goats and even humans. You just don't hear about it that much. I had a very good friend who was an Iranian nurse where I worked. She was having a party at her house. I declined the invitation because they were killing a goat in the ritual, which is a tradition and it is part of their culture.

These are the facts as I know them.




I have taken responsibility for all of my own actions and I would not allow someone else to die for me today or back then.

If I killed someone do you think I would allow some innocent person to be executed in my place? No I would not. If I did, I would bare the guilt of that act.

The Church has always placed tremendous guilt on its people for that story.

They were saying "Shame on you, look who had to die for your sins. You owe your life and your worship to this..."

I do not accept that guilt or that fabrication. You can if you like.

JB

Just for fun, here's a few other resurrections:

Dumuzi (Tammuz) - Sumerian (Hebrew) - Died, descended to Underworld, trapped, intercession by wife (Innana) grants 6mos of life/yr. Probable earliest known source for most resurrection myths.

Osiris - Egyptian Deity - Killed by brother Set, first by suffocation (resurrected), by dismemberment (14pcs), resurrected (reassembled, except for phallus) after 3 days.

Attis - Phrygian Deity - Self-sacrificed (tied to a wooden stake) - Reincarnated after 1 day into an incorruptible new body (the Evergreen Pine). St. Augustine was disturbed by the obvious similarities between this much more ancient religious tale & the Christian resurrection story.

Adonis - Syrian Deity (probable inherit from Attis) - Died, rose from the dead after 3 days, upsetting mourning women nearby.

Dionysus - Greek Deity - Virgin birth, torn to death by Titans and resurrected by his mother after 3 days.

Mithras - Died, buried (in a rock tomb), rose from the dead after 3 days.

Manabozho - Hero (parallels Gilgamesh) - Native American Algonquin sacred lore - Swallowed by giant fish (Jonah parallel); entombed within it's corpse for 3 days (travelled to Underworld), before emerging alive.

Ok...let me rephrase that...

None other rose from the dead and ascended into heaven ......and is seated on the right hand of the Father...none other but Jesus Christ.

Lazaurus rose from the dead in the bible...and I have also heard of other people rising from the dead also, in some ministry revivals not very long ago.

But.... only ONE died for ALL our SINS...and rose again from the dead.....and then ascended into heaven....and still lives..and is seated on the right hand of the Father..yet is also One with the Father.
Only One did this.....His Name is Jesus.

In other words, Only Jesus bore ALL the sins for ALL mankind...died and rose again....and still lives and reigns on High......and is coming back again.

Any other sacrifice before and after, does not save us... only Jesus Saves..no one else.

Jesus was the sacrificial Lamb...that ended all sacrifices for mankind's salvation....

Sure other sacrifices still go on, but not for all mankind's sins.
Jesus ended it all..and paid it all.
Already.

In Full.

Oops! Forgot one:

Heracles (Hercules) - Greek Demigod - Death by poison & self-immolation - Sacrificed himself for humanity countless times - Ascended to Heaven on a cloud (apotheosis compliments of Zeus).


Add Krishna too...Didn't die, but did ascend after a job well done (according to the Brahma).

Morningsong,

I realize you believe this, but I have to wonder why you believe such a story.

I don't believe the story. I don't believe in blood sacrifice. It sounds too much like some unholy cult to me.

JB

wrapped in the Christian belief is a propitiation for the error of Adam in Eve, who are one flesh, and had altered their course through obedience to a second inspiration.

This propitiation held culpability and remedy in the form of overcoming the obstacle to the Creator for man by the duplicitous inspiration imposed and usurped upon man.

This is a spiritual battle among angelic entities mentioned in the Old testament.

One of these adversaries is the one that took the form of flesh and visited man as man and overcame the measure of the obstacle blocking man from the Creator in fellowship and right relationship and quieted the accusations against man and gained pre-eminence among angelic entities for the good of man and God in remedy of the breach.

The breach of promise became that which will not be remembered in judgement. There exists, by faith in the promise fullfilled, no place for that which is a breach happened upon man should man accept that such a breach exists and has been removed and not held to man's account by faith.

Some men shall be justified by faith now, yet all shall be justified through faith at the judgement of man subsequent to mortal death of the body of each man and the breach then shall be established paid for by the corruption of the body of man and not the soul of man.

The judgement is deemed by the presence of faith ,in man, that the righteousness of God is just and that God's righteousness is true, even though we have experienced conscionable awareness of breaching such righteousness. The breach is not held against us, but the recognization of God's righteousness is our advocacy in conscience at the judgement and is become our propitiation, ultimately.

Romans 4:3-10.
"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as Daviv also described the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
(saying), Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose errors are covered.
Blessed (is) the man to whom the Lord will not impute error (sin).
(Cometh) this blessedness then upon the circumcision(only), or upon the uncircumcision also?
for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

The Paul goes on to say this.
He staggered not at the promises of God through unbelief; but wasa strong in faith giving glory to God;
And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able to perform.
And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it is imputed to him;
but for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised up for our justification.

Got promises?

It comes down to whether one believes that Jesus was the one talking to Adam or not, and that Jesus is the only one that can remove the breach that was perpetrated against Adam by Satan.

Satan messed with Adam's head and Jesus took it upon himself to come up through judgement as a man, being found wrapped in flesh as a man, and overcome judgement in righteousness and be made judge of man.

No longer is the consequence of Adam's plight on Adam, but on Satan, who would be God, but is now forever reduced to a by word.

What is left to man since that time is the residual effect of the battle tha RAGED but has been won, yet man is still passing on to man's children through social interaction the very stain of that battle and wrong judgements are influencing man's content and character through the violence of the learned deception and deceiy itself.

It is deceit that jades and cynicism that that cautions man.

But the same cautious and jaded cynicism still haunts man with doubts and unbelief because man cannot be trusted with the things of God.

Who can blame any man for having doubts and unbeliefs when such violence upon man has left a mess to clean up,within each man, ever so slowly and completely?

Well the bottom line is that if God designed a universe where appeasements are made by spilling blood and guts, and then God gets himself into a situation where he gets caught up in his own design and has to sacrifice himself to appease himself, wouldn’t that be almost hilarious?

I mean if other God’s were watching this God design this universe surely they’d be laughing their heads off at how this God entrapped himself in his own creation and ended up having to shoot himself in his own foot in an attempt to save his creation.

Seriously, this God would be the laughing stock of the Gods. He created a universe where he has no choice but to appease himself by slaughtering himself to save his creation.

The whole scenario makes absolutely no sense at all especially considering that this God is supposed to be all-wise, all-loving, and all-knowing. This is a picture of a God who’s creation got away from him and he had to take desperate measures to salvage it.

Moreover, none of these blood and guts solutions ever seem to work.

The first time he tried to salvage his creation he poured water on it to drown out all but a single family that he thought might be a good seed to start over with.

That didn’t work, so then he sends his son to be slaughtered on a pole.

That didn’t work either, so what’s he going to try next?

He seems to be experimenting with violent solutions that never seem to do any good.

Maybe he’ll send his Only Begotten Daughter the next time. Maybe she can finally solve the problem without violence and prove that God was wrong all along in being a male-chauvinistic pig. Maybe God’s big mistake was putting men in charge in the first place.

Where's Mrs. God in all of this?

We seem to be at the mercy of a lunatic.

You just don't get it...and you never will I am afraid......nothing else to say on the matter

On the contrary, I fully understand what the fairytale claims.

It's no different from going to a movie Feral. Just because you come away from the movie realizing that it was just a fairytale doesn’t mean that you didn’t understand it. I know that you’re supposed to be looking at it from the point of view that “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, in an act of love, to save mankind from sin”.

That’s the movie. But then after the movie is over you need to ask. Did it really make any sense? Who was paid? Who was appeased by the act?

The only entity that needs to be appeased for the sins of man is God. Does it really make any sense for God to appease himself for the sins of man? No, it doesn’t.

Hey,… It's great movie if you enjoy violence! By the plot makes no sense!

there are not other gods, only other angels influencing man, and in contrast to the intention upon man.

Man has always enjoyed the distinction in the mind of the Creator as being made lower than the angels, but to be exlted above them, ultimately.

Angels were intended to be the servants of the Creator and to serve man's best interests, not their own. And that in obedience to their construct.

That some angels would envy such a lowly beginning as man enjoys speaks to the promise in man and for man by God, the Creator, and not jealously and covetously attempted to be held back from man is another story within the story.


But the violence done to man becomes a god to the man that does not apprehend the difference. That is an idol in the heart that prevents that man from receiving his fullness of joy and right mind accessing the wisdom of God.

The violated become the violater in adopting the same envy and jealousy as the angels which have perpetrated the deception.

The deception is only complete in the deceived, but there is still hope for the deceived and angry and confused.

It is called the Judgement.

I, personally, did not elect to wait for such a time to come where I would find myself saying, "Now I believe."

Why waste a life that might become less than intended?

Were it but an intellectual neccesity, it would not embolden or empassion me.

The experience of meeting God , given the Holy Spirit, opened the beginning of the wisdom of God to me.

Now I understand that which I know and only because of the revelation of knowledge given me to pursue through faith, confidence, that I should be answered, and that not from myself to judge but given me to judge for myself from God and not man, though it is man that gave the awareness of the offer to receive more from God.

I am thankful for their unselfishness.

The excuses wrapped in abhorrance of violence and abuse are only symptomatic of irrational fears by abused and tainted and violated men offended in their souls by men, and not God.

Man cannot be trusted to understand his own heart, let alone God's.

Angels fear and quake the foolishness of usurping God's intentions, but man snuffs at neither in his abused and confused state of being until such time as he, the man, chooses otherwise for himself.

That is not a license to ignore one's own better judgement, but an opportunity to better understand one's self.

At some point, and in every man's life there is this point, within the time frame of one's own life, to face the fact that man is the violated and perpetrates the violence further by embracing filters to absorb absolution.

Wherever one finds it, it is found. Only one's conscience really knows whether or not that absolution is immaculate and without rebuke.

We teach what we know, assuming that we know what we believe.

But what we teach is works.

And no man is justified by his works.

But God's work is justified, no matter how it is viewed by man in his ignorance or nescience.

Man is God's creation, not man's own creation. The seed within is but a seed of that created tree, and procreation is not creation but sowing and reaping within the Garden where the tree is planted.

There are weeds in the Garden choking the roots of the trees and usurping the waters of life necessary for the tree's health.

Whining to God that the weeds are choking the tree will get the attention of the gardener. But blaming the gardener for the weeds is to deny that the weeds have a right to the waters of life as well.

All things in their right place.

Even in the heart that rejects what it will.

If that’s you vision of God more power to you.

I don’t believe that God is a taskmaster who creates slaves to be servants.

If that story is true then we’re all living in a horror flick that has become reality.

Maybe it is true. Who knows? Anything could be true.

In the meantime I prefer to believe in a more loving picture of a God that has truly unconditional love to offer. After all, if you’re going to believe in fairytales why not go all the way? Why not believe that God truly is perfect instead of merely believing that God is a fascist dictator who creates slaves and desires to be worshiped and served by them?

If you’re going to believe in magic go all the way. Believe in a truly loving God. A God that has more love to offer than you can even possibly imagine. A God that is truly beyond your comprehension. A truly perfectly magical entity.

Why taint your picture of a God with all the egotistical limitations of men?

If you’re going to dream, dream big!

Imagine a God that really can be perfect in every way!

Truly believe that,... “With God All Things Are Possible”. That should squelch any thoughts about God being dependant upon any need of any servants. The idea of an all-powerful God needing servants in the first place is an oxymoron. That would imply that the all-powerful God needs HELP.

Let’s at least try to keep the dreams consistent. If God is all-powerful then he shouldn’t need any slaves or servants to bow down and worship him. That’s a dream of men, not of God.

I agree with you on this point, Abra.

God IS as you say here. We see eye to eye.

Not to discard the point having been made throughout the history of man, accepting that Adam is a beginning for a reference point's sake.

God serves our needs too, Abra.

Is he our servant? Are we his servant?

Are you your friend's servant, and he yours?

I don't believe God to be a taskmaster either, nor do I expect that such a thing has been revealed to me about his love, content and character. Nor has God answered my heart with anything but love and encouragement and strength for embracing the good in life. God has never set me such a place as doing anything against my will, even though I am always challenged by God, as my own heart might consider it a challenge, but rather affords me opportunities to reflect on being participaotry to a greater good for others sake around me in my daily life. The reward always shows a benefit to the warmth generated in my love for giving of myself to others thinking for nothing in return.

The moral of God's personal guidance in my own life leads to that observation of God's intentions by that which bears such fruit in my heart.

I suppose the same can be said for that which you embrace as well. In the end, we are but God's children with slightly different addresses at the least in the city made for our fullness of joy.

I dream big, just by being concretely aware that life in the flesh is only the beginning of greater joys when freed from this temporal house in the midst of so much moral terpitude.

Certainly we all see that. Believers and non-believers and athiests alike, perhaps about this life in particular. It is what we make of it.


As for God not needing us to worship him, Abra, I agree with you as I have already said.

But wow! God is getting such from me because of the joy God has delivered to my heart, and continues to nurture in a healthy way. It makes for certain overzealousness at times, but it is joy unspeakable and very much filled with love and adoration that even friendships deserve standing up for when slighted.

My own dependency is not a compulsion but a privelege I am afforded to myself. I am always mindul not to overstep that same dependency as subservience and conditional on my adherence to duty. It is simply a pleasure to be so gifted with treasures incorruptibly beyond the temptation and risk of human theft.

Worship is a shout out in love and freely offered as a thanksgiving for being so graced.

I am grateful and blessed and calmly at peace with life and made abundanlty aware of the difference between my youth and my present apprehensions.

Surely that is an appreciable virtue that I hope you can understand.

peace

So beautifully said Wouldee.......You took what is in alot of our hearts and put it down for people to understand in the most simplistic way....Just when I thought I could not adore you anymore.......I do....God Bless you my sweet friend.

Appreciation and thankfulness are wonderful attributes... indeed...

I would still like an answer from Morningsong. Or anyone I guess. Would someone please tell me WHY you would believe such an illogical unproven story?

People believe things for a reason. Why would you believe the story that a man, said to be the son of God, was crucified, and why would that pay for the sins of mankind?

Where is the smallest bit of logic or reasoning in this? To what God or force are we making this sacrifice?

What is the meaning of the ritual of drinking the blood and eating the flesh of the sacrifice?

I would just like someone to explain this to me in plain english, no jargon or scripture or statements like "You have to be born again to understand."

That kind of answer is meaningless. Just answer the question. Why do you believe this story and how does it make sense to you?

JB

Don't say it in such a way as to try to convince me to believe as you do, just tell me truthfully WHY YOU BELIEVE THIS.

That's all I want to know.

Of course I do Wouldee.

I have no problem with God. God is great!

I’ve never said anything bad about God in my entire life.

This is what people get so confused about.

All I’m saying that the Bible is manmade mythology. That’s all.

It’s no different from Greek Mythology.

When I appear to say bad things about God I’m only saying those things within the context of the biblical mythological picture of God.

It’s no different that talking about Zeus or some other mythical God.

I don’t believe that God ordered people to do all the terrible things written in the Bible.

I don’t believe that God sent his son to be butchered on a pole.

I don’t believe that God is at war with a fallen Angel he can’t control

I don’t believe that God wants to walk the earth and have every man bow and confess that he is the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings.

Those are all biblical notions.

They have nothing at all to do with God.

God isn’t interested in any of those things. Those are all manmade concepts.

I’m addressing false mythologies and the bad things they instill in men.

Like causing men to point fingers at each other claiming that they are all sinners and they are inherently evil.

And using the bible to pass judgments on other men even if it it’s only to judge them as so-called “non-
believers” Not to mention the proselytizing wars that are currently escalating between Christianity and Islam, both of which are based on basically the same underlying mythologies.

Look at how many Christians call me a “non-believer” simply because I denounce the Bible.

I don’t denounce God.

Yet they claim that I am denouncing God because for them the Bible is their God.

They worship a book. And call that God.

As far as I’m concerned it’s idol worship. They worship an ancient mythology.

A mythology where God has often condoned wars conducted in his name!

That’s the real lesson people take from that Book.

It’s ok to be a war with other people as long as you’re on God’s side.

There are too many lessons in the bible that are learned subconsciously. Like violence is the solution to all problems.