my unit 200

3 soldiers died

14 wounded in some form (2 seriously)

150-200 insurgents killed/captured (most were captured)

Iraqi National Guard Unit working with us at times about 150

somewhere between 30 and 50 were killed

civilians killed by us

2 ; they were in vehicles and we used progression of force by the book. (Tell them to stop in their language while using hand gestures(also in their way), point a weapon, fire a warning shot, they made no attempt to stop (one stepped on the gas) we would not have engauged if we had not felt threatened. these incidences were also reported.

iraqi civilians killed by sucide bombers/car bombs / IED's

150 to 200

number wounded unknown (but at least twice that)

this is just what i have witnessed in the course of about a year. CNN and any other news organization can bite me. That was the truth from when i was there. Now mind you i was not there during the initial invasion. They did use bigger guns.
Public relations got so full of crap we werent even allowed to shoot back if they were shooting at us from a mosque. But i guess the news doesn't report that.

I don't watch the news... I dont trust the media moguls who own them... I do however look through the reams of information from credible sources, military, World Health Orgaisations... the impartial versions.

the liberals biggest scare is coming true with the war is going better...I don't bother reading the stats on deaths since it is known that both sides twist the numbers....like yourself I rely on the men and women that have been over there to tell us like it is.

So can someone explain what a socialist liberal commie is, I am so confused... how many hats is that?

Oh and is Naive a political persuasion too?

I am so confused with all the labels flying around here, I have no clue which one I am apparently.

I'm sorry, it might not be appropriate, but I just had to laugh.

Do they get Johnny Carson over there?

No , hence my response...

How does liberalism differ from conservatism?
Liberals and conservatives generally share the same political principles, differing only on their degree. For example, both believe in a public and private sector, but liberals call for a larger government, conservatives a smaller one. Similarly, both parties generally believe in all the tenets listed below; this list simply shows which end of the spectrum each resides on.

Liberals Conservatives
--------------------------------
Collectivism Individualism
Change Tradition
Science Religion
Inclusiveness Exclusiveness
Democracy Constitutionalism
Equality Merit
Public Sector Private Sector
Pacifism Armed Deterrence
They also represent their own special interest groups:

Liberals Conservatives
--------------------------------
Workers Business management and owners
The Poor The Rich
Women Men
Minorities Whites
Academics Christians
Environmentalists Industry
Artists Police and Military
Gun control Gun owners
advocates

Liberals Conservatives
--------------------------------
Collectivism
Change
Inclusiveness
Democracy
Equality
Public Sector
Pacifism



Workers Business management and owners
The Poor
Women Men

Academics
Environmentalists
Artists
Gun control
advocates


So if I identify with these, I am a socialist liberal Naive commie?

Can't just be me?

So....

there has been the same kind of dialogue on here that we have all come to expect and deserve.

COIN, is a military accronym, look it up and try to understand it.

Let me say that insurgencies or guerilla war if you would rather work based on a couple of proven methods..... first is to scare or terrorized the civilian community so much so that they fear anything but what the insurgents have to offer, it is basically extortion- so when the community starts to soften on the side of the government then it is the civilians who are targeted if for no other reason than to just get them back in line. It worked for Mao in china, the cong in vietnam, hell it even worked for the germans in places like france. Truth be known it worked for the US during the indian wars as well.... I dont want to go off on a diatribe o I will stop now about this particular topic and go now to the 7 trillion dollar one in the original posting....

I really dont have any facts here just sumpasition and a couple of questions.

Ok, I will agree that we have spent more on this war than on say a totally not funded health care system(should we keep it private or government ran is another topic) but the healthcare sysem is not ran by the federal government as much as some people would like--- the government is not the be all know all of everything, after all this is the same government that allows illegals to get government funded grants, and free education, and free healthcare, the list goes on- but what it failed to do was admit that while it is giving this to these illegals for free you and I are paying the bill. So do we really want to let the government run everything? you think it is bad now with the legal wiretapping you should wait, before to long it would be like the old eastern germany and we all know how that turned out.

I would venture to say that the cost of this war is still less than that of, social security, welfare, medicare, and the rest of the "entitlements" that all types of american receive.

In the long term (if we can allow our minds to forward think for a minute) will the region over there be more stable or more fragile than it is currently? I suspect more stable but then again Im not a doom sayer. Will American and t5he rest of the world benefit from the actions taken place by this administration in the future? I suspect that it will, after all, we all felt the benefits of the Reagan era all the way until the Clintons final year in office (which he promptly took credit for). It is not an instant breakfast mentality when dealing with war folks, its more like baking from scratch - it takes time, patients and skill to mix the ingredients correctly or else your bisciuts will look and taste like a hockey puck (no offense to the hockey crowd)

not that it matters but thats how i see it.... as it is written so shall it be done.

Doc

Hey Doc!

Hope you are keeping that clever head of yours down!

Sorry madisonman, but I don't think it breaks down quite so easily.

People are on different spectrums of the political wavelength.

I am neither Democrat or Republican.

I consider myself an Independent Progressive who leans toward liberal social policies but conservative economic policies.

I guess that would make me more of a moderate.

There are also social policies where I am more conservative.

I can either vote for a Republican or a Democrat, it all depends on who I think will do the best job.

There are a lot of moderates like me in this country who can't be easily categorized.

It interesting to me how all these service people rationalize there sacrafices over there. In my small town most are against the war since our economy isnt based on oil, war production, or a military base nearby. Its interesting how people tend to agree with whatever vested interests they have on this. Me I am just a simple tax payer who is discusted with this war and its waste. You can spin your logic all day on this and it wont bring one wasted life back.

Liberals Conservatives
--------------------------------
Collectivism Individualism - are you serious about this,, so lets justdo away with individual rights then.

Change Tradition - change for the sake of change is stupid,, lets change the laws about freedom of speech then since it seems what you say now can get you into trouble.

Science Religion - Really? are you stupid or niave? Im not religious but thanks for the stereotyping which is not inclusive to your collective way of thinking as you previously stated.

Inclusiveness Exclusiveness - inclussive only if you are in their crowd or way of thinking, other wise they will bash and hate on you like its going out of stlye.

Democracy Constitutionalism - well lets see here for a second, the country was founded as a republic based on democracy as dictated by a constitutio, and they are the first ones to say when something violates their constitutional rights.

Equality Merit - of course we shouldnt base anything off of merit should we, just give some clown a job who cant do the job - kind of sounds like what we have in the federal government and city jobs now---- hows that working for you?

Public Sector Private Sector - there wouldnt be a public sector without the private sector, glad to know we are taking care of you, you are welcome.

Pacifism Armed Deterrence - you only have two cheeks to turn, sometimes it just takes one punch to knock a man out, would you rather defend against that one time or wit and see, then decide- you know sometimes when something happens it to late to go back and try to stop it.

They also represent their own special interest groups: what like the libs dont have interest groups? tell the truth the whole truth,,, or be called out for what you are!

Liberals Conservatives
--------------------------------
Workers Business management and owners - so only liberals work in this country, that explains why its so messed up,,, jack a$$

The Poor The Rich - thats why the biggest campaign donors are liberals right? im not rich!!!

Women Men - BS, no other word for it. more women are registered republicans than democrats!

Minorities Whites - really? more BS, lib is only for a minority if it suits their agendas, a conserbative by nature is more apt to help minorities than a lib..... look at the records, who emancipated slaves, who allowed for the passage of a womans right to vote, who has funded more minority programs? conservations.

Academics Christians - so your smarter is what your saying? I'll put my IQ up against yours any day. did i mention Im not religious? Some of our greatest leaders in technology and arts where conservatives, i give you the founding fathers, hell ben franklin alone could take out the entire liberal movement.


Environmentalists Industry,,,,, oh yes, its the environment stupid conversation.... the spotted owl and global warming!!! hog wash!!!

Artists Police and Military - hmmmm, you a painter or something, what good will art do you in a defense of a nation, if you sing pretty enough they will love you?

Gun control Gun owners - well well well, gues we dont need to sy anything about this topic, you are correct FINALLY, you guys want to leave people defenseless and in the streets singing and painting while watching the carnage of yet another toppled government falls, like in other places in the world- kenya, cambodia, jafar, kosovo, just to name a couple of recent ones.

advocates -- what are you advocating? except us or face the consequences? screw that.... get a clue, i heard you can buy one on ebay.

Hi back atcha Jess-, yeah Im good babydoll, thanks for thinking of me.



D

According to the Washington Post:

To better understand the difficulty of the fighting in Iraq, consider not just the current body count but the combat intensity of previous wars. During World War II, the United States lost an average of 300 military personnel per day. The daily figure in Vietnam was about 15. Compared with two per day so far in Iraq, the daily grinds of those earlier conflicts were worse than what our forces are currently experiencing.

On the other hand, improved body armor, field medical procedures and medevac capabilities are allowing wounded soldiers to survive injuries that would have killed them in earlier wars. In World War II there were 1.7 wounded for every fatality, and 2.6 in Vietnam; in Iraq the ratio of wounded to killed is 7.6. This means that if our wounded today had the same chances of survival as their fathers did in Vietnam, we would probably now have more than 3,500 deaths in the Iraq war.


Moreover, we fought those wars with much larger militaries than we currently field. The United States had 12 million active-duty personnel at the end of World War II and 3.5 million at the height of the Vietnam War, compared with just 1.4 million today. Adjusted for the size of the armed forces, the average daily number of killed and wounded was 4.8 times as many in World War II than in Iraq, but it was only 0.25 times greater in Vietnam -- or one-fourth more.
In other words, while the absolute numbers make it appear as though things are much better in Iraq than they were in Vietnam or WWII, the relative numbers — numbers that take into account the ways in which things have improved in terms of saving lives — tell a much different story. Yes, things are still better, but not by nearly as much as people say.

Thus, the mission for soldiers in Iraq is nearly as difficult as the mission was for soldiers in Vietnam. In that earlier war, however, the enemy had "the support and patronage of a superpower such as the Soviet Union," not to mention artillery and armor.

sorry your wasteing your life over there bro but its not my fault

And Happy Birthday Doc, I hope you got more than a sandcake for it...

“We don’t do body counts”
General Tommy Franks
Iraq Body CountDocumented civilian deaths from violence
81,525 – 88,991