gee...guess you havn't heard of the suicide bombers who go after soft targets, being the common citizen of Iraq. The terrorists have caused so much destruction they are now being pointed out by the Iraqi people. Sorry if that isn't what you wanted to hear...

Watch who?

No but the big bad boogyman may not come zooming over at the gazillion miles an hour your government has led you to believe they might.

And if we are going to bring up the Twin Towers... ask yourself, how did they manage that, with the gazillions spent on military intel, to match the paranoia?

I find it funny Nrthn Yanke, that you are in Canada, and you have such a bug up your butt, about any other opinion, that may be different from yours?

I am only sharing my perspective... a different one...

you really are naive...well it's lucky that there are men and women who protect people like you even though your oblivious to the real world around you...and as far as me being in Canada the threat of the terrorists don't stop at borders and I kinda like the western world as it is and would put my life on the line to protect it.....

Isn't that a socialist outlook?

::

wow...you get socialism out of that?...it's not at all...what the world needs is a united front against the terrorists...the terrorists rely on allies like yourself who can't understand the implications of your criticism but keep on babbling...

One persons perspective of babble is just the other side of the mirror...

You do a pretty great job yourself...

I speak from my own experiences. The insurgents TARGETED civilians. Many is the time i would be out on a mission and have to pull security or help clean up messes from suicide bombers. I spent more time outside" the wire" and inside, which means i was usually within hearing range of a radio. Whenever a bomb went off we knew it. And, once again we would often pull security while intelligence investigated. I know in the main areas the most of the insurgents would target civilians because 80% of the attacks that were even close to U.S. troops happened so quick the troops had no time to retaliate. We used air support twice to take out enemy mortar teams and in each case there were 0 yes 0 noncombatant casualties. We were VERY concious about what we did around the civilian populace because part of our mission was to try to "win them over" so they would be more cooperative with us about who and where the insurgents were. Granted this was in 2004 and 2005 so unless something has drastically changed i wouldn't believe anyone that told me american troops were killing many civilians at all. I would agree that some do get caught in a crossfire, which can be expected when fighting an enemy that looks just like the civilians. This happened more rarely than you would think. And most of these "innocents" you speak of were usually driving the vehicle that the insurgents were shooting from (while they were shooting).

Couldnt we have just bought Iraq for 3 trillion?

maybe I do but at least I'm not supporting the terrorists like your type..

what is your hardhat protecting?

The figures in this article refer solely to Iraqi civilians reported killed by direct US fire.
The Price of Loss
How the West values civilian lives in Iraq

Comment by Lily Hamourtziadou

12 November 2007

The American military has expressed regret “that civilians are hurt or killed while coalition forces search to rid Iraq of terrorism,” after the 11 October killing of 15 women (one pregnant) and children in an air raid near lake Thar Thar.1 The civilian death toll by US fire was 96 in October, with 23 children among them, while in September US forces and contractors killed 108 Iraqi civilians, including 7 children. In August US troops killed 103 civilians, 16 of them children, and in July they killed 196. In fact, during the last five months US forces in Iraq have killed over 600 Iraqi civilians. Regrettably, as always.

It is the ‘price to pay’, the ‘sacrifice’ that has to be made as we fight terrorism, the ‘cost’ of this war against evil forces. That is what we say to justify these killings. But those of us who speak of this price to be paid, this sacrifice to be made, do not pay this price, do not make this sacrifice. Our own country is not being destroyed, attacked, occupied. Our own children are not being blown up, our civilians are not becoming homeless by the millions. Those who speak of the necessity of this sacrifice, would they be prepared to pay such a price? In their own country? With the blood of their own families?

1 Iraq strike 'kills 15 civilians' BBC, 12 Oct 2007. IBC record k7704

2 'Army Bates 550 - 554' 13 Feb 2006 (via ACLU) IBC record d1910

3 'Army Bates 762' 18 Feb 2006 (via ACLU) IBC record d1908

4 'Army Bates 342 - 343' 1 Jan 2006 (via ACLU) IBC record d1904

5 'Army Bates 1149 - 1152' 1 Jan 2006 (via ACLU) IBC record d1905

6 Knowing the enemy difficult in Iraq Katarina Kratovac, AP, 7 Oct 2007. IBC record k7615

How much easier it is to sacrifice others, to let others pay with their lives. The value of those lives is hardly high enough to trouble us. It is nothing our military cannot afford. Here is an example:

“A fisherman was fishing in the Tigris river in the early morning, when a Coalition Forces (CF) helicopter flew over and shone a spotlight on him. The fisherman began to shout in English, ‘Fish! Fish!’ while pointing to his catch. A patrol of Humvees arrived, and as the deceased bent down to turn off the boat’s motor, CF shot and killed him. CF did not secure the boat, which drifted off and was never retrieved.” Compensation for death denied due to combat exemption; compensation for boat granted: $3,500 US.2

The US Army paid $7,500 to two children whose mother they killed inside a taxi that ran a checkpoint — both children were also in the taxi, and were shot and injured; they also paid $6,000 for killing a child looking out of the window, while a raid was on-going in the house across the street.3 4 They refused, as they do in the majority of cases, to compensate the child whose father they killed as he drove home, but agreed to make a ‘condolence payment’ of $1,500.5 More recently, the US military is reported to have paid $2,500 to each family of the three men they killed near Abu Lukah, as they guarded their village.6

There are more:
Al Matasan Street, Samarra, Iraq

Claim on behalf of Iraqi [Redacted] by son. [Redacted], who was deaf, was shot and killed by US forces near the Samarra museum. Two eyewitnesses corroborated the story. Finding: denied for lack of evidence and combat exception. Condolence payment granted: $500 US.7
Samarra, Iraq

7 'Army Bates 0952 - 0958' 4 Nov 2005 (via ACLU) IBC record d3353

8 'Army Bates 588 - 591' 28 Apr 2005 (via ACLU) IBC record d3352

9 'Army Bates 889 - 892' 27 May 2005 (via ACLU) IBC record d3348

Claim on behalf of Iraqi [Redacted] by parent. [Redacted], a four year-old girl, was playing in her front yard when she was killed by Coalition Forces’ (CF) fire. The CF and a Humvee were trying to cross the road and they shot to clear the traffic. A bullet ricocheted off of a wall and hit [Redacted]. Army memo: “A SIGACTS investigation revealed no activity meeting” the incident’s description, and “the claim is too old to verify.” Finding: denied due to lack of evidence. Condolence payment of $2,500 US granted.8
Tikrit, Iraq

Claim on behalf of Iraqi [Redacted], an ambulance driver. [Redacted] was on his way to the scene of an accident with an IED when he was shot and killed by a US soldier. Finding: negligent fire; Compensation: $2,500 US.9

Reading through the Army compensation reports, it is fairly clear just what the value of an Iraqi life is, of how the loss of a beloved child, parent and sibling is valued, priced. A few thousand dollars (if that) is how much they are worth, and no more. Their loss covered by a shockingly low monetary compensation. No further consequences, punishment, no further accountability.

Those of us who opposed this war and the long occupation that followed hold our political leaders responsible for the horrors of Iraq. We sometimes blame our soldiers. We always blame the terrorists. But we are reluctant to blame our nation or ourselves. “We can continue to blame the Bush administration,” writes Frank Rich, “but we must also examine our own responsibility for the hideous acts committed in our name in a war where we have now fought longer than we did in the one that put Verschärfte Vernehmung on the map.” We cannot simply ‘look the other way.’10

10 The 'Good Germans' Among Us Frank Rich, New York Times, 14 Oct 2007.

We, who have lost very little, who have sacrificed very little, who have paid very little, we ‘turn the page,’ to use Rich’s phrase, and we continue to speak of ‘our’ war, of ‘our’ fight against the terrorists, ‘our’ ideals, ‘our’ kindness, ‘our’ courage; things that we value far more than the lives of millions of others, people whose deaths do not hurt us, whose loss does not affect us, and whose sacrifice we do not see bloodying our own hands.


http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/beyond/the-price-of-loss/

Im sorry, that really was funny, true, sad, but funny.

Large bombings claim ever more lives
2007 sees the worst bombings ever – and more of them

4 Oct 2007

Iraq Body Count’s research shows that 27,000 civilian deaths from violence were reported in 2006. This represents a huge increase compared to preceding years: 14,000 killed in 2005, 10,500 in 2004 and just under 12,000 in 2003 (7,000 during the actual war/invasion, and another 5,000 during the ‘peace’ that followed).

Early indications are that roughly 20,000 violent civilian deaths will be recorded for the first 9 months of 2007. By year’s end, 2007 looks to be the second-worst calendar year for violence in Iraq since the 2003 invasion, trailing only behind 2006, and still almost twice as deadly for civilians as the first year.

One measure by which 2007 quickly exceeded 2006 was in major ground-based bombing attacks which killed more than 50 civilians (and sometimes far more). Throughout all of 2006 there were 12 such attacks. Between January and April 2007 there were already 13. As of this writing, there have been 20 such attacks in 2007, claiming well over 2,000 civilian lives, with the worst-ever of these attacks occurring in August and killing over 500.

Altogether, there have been 49 of these attacks since 2003, killing 4,454 to 4,632 civilians, and probably more.

The death tolls from these large-scale incidents are well-reported: on average, each of the incidents listed here received 33 independent media reports, including updates to the death toll, ranging up to 92 reports for the largest incident. Even so, these attacks leave many wounded, some of whom may have died from their injuries after the last of these reports were collected. This makes it likely that more civilians may have died from them than the 4,454 to 4,362 recorded here.

The following table charts the 49 incidents recorded between March 2003 and September 2007:
2003 Total 83–95
k1100 Aug 29: 83–95 at Imam Ali mosque, Najaf
2004 Total 608–611
k021 Feb 01: 107–109 by suicide bombers in party offices in Irbil
k013 Feb 10: 55 killed by truck bomb in Iskandariyah
k022 Mar 02: 121 by suicide bombers in Karbala
k023 Mar 02: 67 by suicide bombers, Kazimiya, Baghdad
k136 Apr 21: 74 in bombings in Basra and Zubair
k251 Jun 24: 61 in multiple bombings in Mosul
k314 Jul 28: 70 by suicide car bomb in Baqouba
k707 Dec 19: 53–54 in suicide car bomb attack in Najaf
2005 Total 631–701
k991 Feb 28 : 125–136 by suicide car bomb in Hilla
k1023 Mar 10: 50–51 by suicide bomber in Mosul
k1260 May 04: 45–60 by suicide bomb, Arbil
k1618 Jul 16: 98 by suicide bomber near tanker, Musayyib
k1903 Sep 14: 111–114 by suicide bomb, Kadhimiya, Baghdad
k1981 Sep 29: 99–102 by car bombs in Balad
k2170 Nov 18: 74–90 by suicide car bombs in Khanaqin
k2172 Nov 19: 19–50 by suicide car bomb, Abu Sayda
2006 Total 918–977
k2381 Jan 05: 49–60 by suicide bomber in Karbala
k2382 Jan 05: 55–80 by suicide bomber in Ramadi
k2690 Mar 12: 57–58 by car bombs, mortars, Sadr City, Baghdad
k2860 Apr 07: 87–90 at Baratha mosque, northern Baghdad
k3358 Jul 01: 68 by car bomb in Sadr City, Baghdad
k3456 Jul 17: 60–72 in attack on market, Mahmudiya
k3458 Jul 18: 58–59 by suicide car bomb in Kufa
k3659 Aug 13: 72–76 in multiple attacks, Zaafaraniya, Baghdad
k3823 Aug 31: 67 killed in multiple incidents, east Baghdad
k4710 Nov 23: 215 by bombs, mortars in Sadr City, Baghdad
k4750 Dec 02: 61 in 3 car bomb attacks, Sadriya, Baghdad
k4851 Dec 12: 69–71 by suicide car bombs, Tayeran Square, Baghdad
2007 Total 2218–2248 (to end September )
k5154 Jan 16: 69–70 by car bombs and suicide bomber, Mustansiriya University, Baghdad
k5222 Jan 22: 88 by car bombs, Bab al-Sharji, Baghdad
k5337 Feb 01: 73 by suicide bombers in Hilla market
k5356 Feb 03: 136–137 by suicide truck bomb in market, Sadriya, Baghdad
k5457 Feb 12: 81–90 by several bombs, Shorja market, Baghdad
k5508 Feb 18: 62–63 by car bombs in market, New Baghdad
k5554 Feb 24: 56 by truck bomb in Habaniya
k5659 Mar 06: 118–120 Shiite pilgrims by suicide bombers in Hilla
k5897 Mar 27: 152 by truck bombs in market, Tal Afar
k5922 Mar 29: 53 by car bombs in Khalis
k5923 Mar 29: 80–82 by suicide bombers in market, Shaab, north Baghdad
k6112 Apr 18: 140 by car bomb, Sadriya food market, Baghdad
k6218 Apr 28: 73–74 by suicide car bomb in Kerbala
k6382 May 13: 49–50 by suicide truck bomb, Makhmour, near Arbil
k6733 Jun 19: 86–87 by suicide truck bomb, near Khillani Shiite mosque, Sinak, Baghdad
k6891 Jul 07: 159-160 by suicide truck bomb in market, Amerli, near Tuz Khurmato
k6985 Jul 16: 84–86 in three bombings in Kirkuk
k7080 Jul 26: 92 by truck bomb in market, Saba Qsour intersection, Karrada, Baghdad
k7132 Aug 01: 49–50 by suicide fuel tanker bomb, Mansour, west Baghdad
k7225 Aug 14: 516–525 by suicide fuel tanker bombs in Yasidi villages, Sinjar area

To be fair, unlike some, who prefer only their version, this supports some of what you are saying Drivenmenutz...

From the same site.

Isn't that just about what the democratic candidates are proposing for universal health care, tax revbates to the poor, and college tuition aid? Per year that is

cmon. body counts went out with macnamara in the vietnam war.
if we expend x number of bullets.... we are expected to kill y amount of folks.... its bad math that dont add up.
war aint pretty, as we see by your numbers.... but compared with ww2, for example, the numbers of civillians are far lower now for a variety of reasons. it will never be zero however,,,, its just the way war is. i dont like it either but its reality. Im still glad the fight is there instead of here.

The Baghdad ‘surge’ and civilian casualties
What effect is the increase in US troop deployment to Baghdad having on violence against civilians?

The graphs below show selected monthly trends in violent civilian deaths recorded by IBC for the period from Jan 1 2007. The figures indicate deaths from shootings and executions versus bombs, by location (within the Baghdad governorate versus the rest of Iraq), and with the timeline divided into the period before (brown) and after (orange) the first US troop deployment of the ‘surge’ on 14 Feb 2007.

The graphs on this page are dynamic and will update as new data are analysed and added; data for the more recent periods are usually less complete and likely to show the greatest future rise.



You will need to go to the link, for the charts....

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/numbers/baghdad-surge/




Iraq Body Count is aware that official reports are imminent concerning the progress of the US Government’s New Security Plan or ‘surge.’ However, IBC’s work is not linked to the political calendar, and the charts above are not intended to be directly comparable to data which may be supplied from official sources.

These charts sometimes indicate a modest improvement in the security situation for ordinary Iraqis post-surge, and this is not disputed. But these charts will tend to under-represent reported violence for the more recent periods, for the reasons stated above. The observed downward trend in these charts will likely become less marked as data still in the pipeline is added (see Recent Events for as yet unprocessed data).

It is important to place the events of 2007 in context. Levels of violence reached an all-time high in the last six months of 2006. Only in comparison to that could the first half of 2007 be regarded as an improvement. Despite any efforts put into the surge, the first six months of 2007 was still the most deadly first six months for civilians of any year since the invasion.

thats not at all what the returning vets are saying. Ill believe them over you so called source.... they were there. This doom gloom pull out now mentality is simply based on flawed media reports like this one.

Gosh you're right, never looked at it that way. Guess we got it really good huh?

Is it possible the numbers came from body counts, and first hand information, from credible sources, THAT WERE THERE ALSO?

Just remotely possible????