Milesoftheusa,

Well you seem to have it all figured out. I'm sure you believe all that. Peace be with you.

Jeannie

It is history. Search the web and see what it says..Miles

The Poor Men of Lyons were such a threat to the catholic church because they could not deny what they said. They went out 2 by 2 preaching. Everyone of them being able to recite from heart the whole New Testament.. Thier were not many bibles then. Try finding another group in history that even come close to that kind of knowledge. The Spirit of Yahweh had to be with them..No other way could they of done what they did..Shalom..Miles

History too, was written and embellished by men. Every religion, every country, who has written their history wrote it from their point of view in the way they wanted others to view it. There is no accuracy in history, maybe a little but not much. Truth mixed with fiction and some out right lies.

The tendency (and this has been proven) for people to believe the written word and the power of the written word throughout history, is staggering.

Before the printing press, written scripts were taken for truth by the simple reason that someone took the time to write it. Why would it be written if it were not the truth?

After the printing press was invented, books were so powerful, they were often banned in some countries. Information was dangerous to the powerful men in charge.

History is written, but that does not mean that it is accurate.
People need to wake up and realize that lies have been told throughout time, and are still being told and sold.

Jeannie

This is true. But I would believe what happened to The Poor Men of Lyons. Not only did other people write of them because of thier faith in the fase of death but Loyalo University has Records of the sermons in the french language and translated to English. These have been published side by side what they were saying. T After the demise of the sect some went to the south of France and have built a Museum in it's founders recongnition. Petra Waldo. His writings are thier. The Methodists church at least over in France and I know a sect came to the states later as Methodists claiming the Poor Men of Lyons as thier Founding fathers. The problem is what they teach and what they preach contradict each other. many events have been exagerated and you can have freewill and believe as you wish. But to many languages/people across Europe have written about this sect and they all agree in thier zeal and work they did. But not all that was left traded in the faith once delivered to go along with the Catholism doctrine which we all know all these religions broke from. We are all over the world in small groups and are finding each other as Daniel fortold we would when the knowledge explosion happened when man would turn to the idea's of Satan believing they know longer needed Yahweh. The Tower of Babel all over again. To smart for our own good that we start to believe we are g-ds. Which you and many others around here prove is comming true over and over. I look foward when I can visit the South of France and see what is thier for myself.. Blessings...Miles

I do not go around proclaiming that I am god in the sense that you think I do. It is my belief (and many others) that God is one being and that we are all part of that being. This I believe theologians call "pantheism." My reason for this belief is just as valid as your reasons for your belief. I will hold this conclusion until information is received that presents a different picture. The reality in which we live is holographic in nature in that it is made up of light and vibration. This has been proven by quantum science. There are many truths and many realities.

Jeannie

I apologize if that is not how you believe. The term I Am from somebody in the way it seemed to me you were using it throws up a great big red flag in front of me.. Now you see prophesy says what i believed you were saying would happen. And it is. We are a me,me,me society running at such a pace to have all we desire that knowing what is around the corner people are blinded and have become conplacent to it. They believe the prophecies are just made up stories. All this has been fortold. I may sound harsh sometimes but I am trying to warn whats comming..I have written about forced democracy in the 3rd horseman would happen followed by severe worldwide hunger as the rich get richer. This I will say again as i have before. Ethonal is nothing but a smoke screen for people to get rich. We hit 100 dollars abarrel today when thier is no reason for it. These things will happen as chaos will happen when we can not feed ourselves in favor of Ethanol who is only for the few of the richests families in America. Middle class they do not want. All fortold in the scriptures that the churches are lost about because they have decieved themselves.I could go on about what we are going to see but most would rather turn a blind eye and believe all is great. Just look at the last 7 years and you should see what Peter spoke of when he said men in High places would be our enemy. But i am off on a tangent I know. It is not easy when noone wants to listen even over the years what I have said on the forums have come true. It has always been like that though. Nothing new. Shalom and take a good look at the world and see what you see.. Blessings...Miles

I don’t know how to tell you this Miles, but most of the people who are running around with the ‘me, me, me’ attitude are actually Christians!

The power to proceed “freely” at any given moment in our lives is totally, utterly dependent on the functions of the brain. There is only one thing that allows us to have a sense of self identity even, subjective, self awareness means little if self identity is not present. What provides this? Memory, long term memory and not only the ability of the brain to store long term memory but the ability of the brain to access and utilize those memories cognitively. It is only through these functions that we even have the ability to make ‘decisions’, apart from instinct or implicit learning, at all.

There are any numbers of situations that can interfere with the proper functions of the brain, in these capacities. Those who suffer from any one of the possible dysfunctions, as Abra has stated, are proceeding with various ‘limited’ levels of free will. A great many are simply born this way, many suffer from diseases, and some have suffered accidents and all these things put limitations on our ability to proceed in accordance with the definition of “free will” that seems to be present in this thread.

Other factors that directly affect our ability to proceed freely include the emotions or “passions” that are ‘genetically’ encoded into our being. Each of us is predisposed to certain personality traits which affect the intrinsic nature of our emotions.

Also, in our make-up, is the instinctual pattern of all animals; that of survival. Survival, for humans, as well as many other animals, is inextricably linked to the instinct of socialization. We require a social unit and as such we have had to create the ‘laws’ that will maintain civil order. The patterns that allow us to remain civil are encoded as implicit memory. Implicit memory being the repeated patterns of our life that we no longer need to maintain in our long term memory.

Destroy the areas of the brain that allow long term memory to exist and be accessed, at any pint in our lives, and we will still maintain, and act on, the implicit memory that has previously been embedded.

All this means; is that ‘free-will’ is not an equal opportunity concept; in fact it’s virtually impossibility. Although behavior modification can be used to re-direct or change some implicit memory, there is no way that anyone would be able to determine what memories would need to be modified or changed.

So from the stand point of science, there simply is no free will.

you, you, you, you and you!

i don't feel like i'm under the old Jedi mind-trick....

I understand that well, Miles. In the recent past I spent three years looking around at the world and seeing what you see and it is distressing indeed.

But since then, I have learned that we are all responsible for our creations. All that we see are things that we, as a world consciousness have created, and to focus on the bad things only gives them more power to continue to persist.

To give it thought gives it being, because we manifest what we think about. This is the law of attraction and manifestation and we are the creators within the body of God. We, meaning all of mankind.

Prophecy is nothing more than self fulfilled events, manifested by people who focus on them, and work to bring them to pass by thinking about them. Some consciously work on fulfilling so-called prophecies. (Zionism is a good example of that.)

We create our reality with our thoughts, and with our beliefs.

People who focus on sin perpetuate it. People who focus on poverty perpetuate it. You will draw unto you, by power of attraction and attention that which you think about.

You will probably not believe any of this. I have been where you are, although not in the same religious group.

I too used to rant about the sad state of affairs and try to get people to see the bad things in the world. I told them they were turning a blind eye to the truth. I thought they wer all in La La land.

I know about the evil ones who seek power and seek to control the world. I know things that go on in this world that would give you nightmares and make you sick and very paranoid.

But what would I have them to do? Go to war? Seek the evil ones and destroy them? Destroy governments? Hide in their basements? Look for someone to save them? There is nothing I could tell them to do. I was wrong to try to enlist their help or getting them to focus on this wickedness thus giving it more power.

My time here in this life is limited. I seek not to change the world. I can only live in the present moment the best I know how. And that I will do.

I am.
Jeannie

And so do you speak for all scientists?

If the Will is the power of self direction, and there were no will at all, there would be no science.

You either have a Will or you don't.
If you have it, you either use it well or you don't.

But to have no Will, means you are not alive, you are a machine.
All Will is free. That is its natural state.

Jeannie

It seems that many religions put a lot of store in the concept of free will. The idea being that their god created humans with the ability to “decide” for themselves to believe in a creator or not.

There is one thing that those of any religion cannot deny. If free will is a “god-given” trait, then that god has not fairly distributed the ability to utilize it.

The fact that we require the level of social and civil order, that we do, automatically sets limitations on our ability to act freely.

Also, to be considered, are those people who, due to birth defects, disease and accidents, are denied the free will to decide for themselves if they WANT TO believe in god or not.

If god simply decides that those affected, in this manner, will be given the ultimate prize, than god has usurped that which others claim is a gods gift to man – free will. Catch 22, don’t you think?

I have found that many religions are a little annoyed with the idea of "free will" and would rather people hand over their will to them.



Will is always "free." But you are right. The ability to use it is not even amongst all creatures or beings, human or otherwise. One has to earn the awareness that it takes to use it.




Free will is not about what we are allowed to do. It is our ability to direct ourselves. We decide what to think, what to look at, how to feel, what to believe, how to act.



The Will has little to do with the conscious decision of whether or not to believe in God. It is about the power to direct self. Even those people you mention above have that power although it may be weak, unrealized or not used.



The way I believe is that God lives and has Its being in all things. It (he) does not decide such things. God simply manifests through all things and is eternal. Individuals live and die and live and die again. (Reincarnate) I am sure not all have this belief.

Jeannie

“God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can; and the wisdom to know the difference” - Reinhold Niebuhr

This was writen by a Christian to be used in a sermon. A wise man!

Worrying about the condition of the world is not our job as individuals. We can only be responsible for our place in the world.

The only individuals who really need to be concerned with how they are running the world are those who have chosen to be the world’s leaders. They are the ones who are leading the masses. And currently, in the USA, we have a Christian leader, Miles. And look at the mess he made!

Yea, pretty much, at least in as much as science has determined to this point. The study of the brain is complicated and we are learning all the time.



The power of self-direction, does not come from will. A human can be directed by instinct and can “act” from implicit memory. Neither of those things gives one a sense of ‘self’ or self identity.

When we make decisions, we are utilizing a combination of long term memory, cognisece and on some occasions, implicit memory and instinct as well. So we are not always “free” to proceed as we “will”.

This is one of the greatest errors that Christians make when they pray “and God’s will be done”. Where is the free will in that statement, sounds like it all belongs to God anyway?




It’s really not that simple. Many of us have the ability to make decisions, it the information we are using to make those determinations that we don't have control over.



What you call will, well done, is what? Someone whose life is always wonderful? Someone who “decided” to make choices YOU think are good? Someone whose choices always make them happy? Someone whose choices always serve the greater good?

What then, do you think should drive the decisions we make?



Our brain, as you have said before, is much like a computer. In fact, there is current work underway to create a computer neural net using specific human DNA that will emulate the way the brains nervous system works.

What gives us the ability to make decisions, at all, is the proper functioning of the brain. There can be no self-identity, and no decisions to make if we could not “remember” the past.

So if “free will” exists ONLY because we have the capability of remembering the past, than it can not exist perfectly. The reason it can’t is because we can NEVER remember the past, exactly as it occured, and so our decisions are based on erroneous information.

As far as the religious aspect of free will - How can a god make us responsible for the faulty equipment bestowed upon us?

This is simply not true IMO. Besides, memory resides not only "in the brain" but in every cell of the body.

Jeannie

You don't get it at all.

Free will does not exist ONLY because we have capability of remembering the past. Who ever proved that theory?

Even a small child with no past at all has a will. That will is free. That small child chooses what to look at and other things.

A person with global amnesia, no memory at all, still can choose to direct their life in the present moment.

A person with Alzheimer's disease lives in the moment and choses where to place his attention etc.

These examples may be people with weak will or hardly used will but Will just the same.

Not learning fast enough apparently. They are still locked inside a very small box.

A brain can be functioning properly and be kept in a jar. It does not make choices.

The question to ask is: is it conscious?

Does it qualify as life?

Does it think?

Does it have a will?

How can one tell if it did or not?

I certainly don't know the answer to these questions.

But I know the difference between a computer and a human's ability to use the Will.

But then I believe consciousness exists outside of the brain. Scientist's don't.

I think scientist's are not keeping up with quantum physics. You should read the book "The Holographic Universe.