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| Topic: Do We Have Free Will? | |
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As far as religion is concerned where the Will is concerned, from what I have learned talking to ministers, they seem to separate God's will and man's will as being two separate things.
Exactly. This is what I was taught to believe when I was growing up. I no longer believe this anymore. Now I am in total agreement with the view that you are expressing. I only wish I had been taught this view as a child. That would have drastically changed the way I applied my free will. In short, it’s hard to view your will as being ‘free’ when you are taught that you are ultimately supposed to bow down to the ‘will’ of another. You can’t simultaneously have ‘free will’ and serve under the ‘will’ of another. If you are serving under the will of another then you are forfeiting your own free will for the sake of appeasing the will of another. That’s exactly my point. 
Amen! 
Jeannie |
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As far as religion is concerned where the Will is concerned, from what I have learned talking to ministers, they seem to separate God's will and man's will as being two separate things.
Exactly. This is what I was taught to believe when I was growing up. I no longer believe this anymore. Now I am in total agreement with the view that you are expressing. I only wish I had been taught this view as a child. That would have drastically changed the way I applied my free will. In short, it’s hard to view your will as being ‘free’ when you are taught that you are ultimately supposed to bow down to the ‘will’ of another. You can’t simultaneously have ‘free will’ and serve under the ‘will’ of another. If you are serving under the will of another then you are forfeiting your own free will for the sake of appeasing the will of another. That’s exactly my point.
Every time you bend to the will of another, it is from a conscience decision to do so. Therefore, bending to the will of another is free will. You can’t simultaneously have ‘free will’ and serve under the ‘will’ of another. You absolutely can, as I explained above. |
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You absolutely can, as I explained above.
All you're saying is that you have the free will to forfeit your free will. I can't argue with that. You certainly can do that. I'm just saying that in making that choice you are indeed choosing to forfeit your free will to appease the will of another. The fact that you did it freely doesn't change the outcome. |
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Edited by
Spidercmb
on
Tue 02/19/08 11:48 AM
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You absolutely can, as I explained above.
All you're saying is that you have the free will to forfeit your free will. I can't argue with that. You certainly can do that. I'm just saying that in making that choice you are indeed choosing to forfeit your free will to appease the will of another. The fact that you did it freely doesn't change the outcome. Abracadabra, One cannot give up ones free will. Each act of obedience to another's will is a choice. You can't surrender your free will through a single decision, because you can't surrender your free will at all. So long as one can think, one exercises free will. |
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Some people will give up their free will because they have been told that to do otherwise would mean that they would go to hell.
Some people will give up their free will under the false belief that they are not capable of knowing and choosing right from wrong. You can freely give up your Will or your can be forced to comply. No person would want to be a slave that is in touch with the true self. The true self wants freedom in the end. You can choose to be a slave if you want. One who chooses to be a slave is one who does not want the responsibility of taking care of themself. Their master takes care of them. If you serve your God faithfully, you are told, you will be rewarded. You will come to live in his house.... to serve him forever.... and you will be taken care of. You will have no worries, no pain, etc. You are still a slave, no matter how well your master takes care of you. Jeannie |
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Some people will give up their free will because they have been told that to do otherwise would mean that they would go to hell. Some people will give up their free will under the false belief that they are not capable of knowing and choosing right from wrong. You can freely give up your Will or your can be forced to comply. No person would want to be a slave that is in touch with the true self. The true self wants freedom in the end. You can choose to be a slave if you want. One who chooses to be a slave is one who does not want the responsibility of taking care of themself. Their master takes care of them. If you serve your God faithfully, you are told, you will be rewarded. You will come to live in his house.... to serve him forever.... and you will be taken care of. You will have no worries, no pain, etc. You are still a slave, no matter how well your master takes care of you. Jeannie You can't freely give up your will and you cannot be forced to comply. It's simply not possible. As long as there is intelligent thought, one has free will. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Tue 02/19/08 12:06 PM
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In order to make the most of your "free will" it is necessary to accept total responsibility for your actions, and for your life.
If you understand the law of attraction, you know that everything that happens to you is of your own making. You will stop blaming others. If a person is trapped in a cult or religion and has been programed to believe he must submit to some one else's doctrine, it takes the Will of that person to break free. If it were not for his Will, he would never break free. He would be forever a programed robot with no power to re-program himself. You cannot free a programed robot from his life of slavery. He must make use of his will and free himself. Jeannie edit: correction: A real robot has no will. A person does. A real robot could never break free. A person can. |
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You can't freely give up your will and you cannot be forced to comply. It's simply not possible. As long as there is intelligent thought, one has free will.
I agree. Once you decide to live under the will of another, you can always change your mind. If you did not have any will at all, you would not be able to change your mind. You would be like a robot with no ability to change your mind. You can always choose to take back your power. Jeannie |
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You can always choose to take back your power.
After all, Abra did!
Jeannie |
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It is true that everyone always maintains their free will.
What is free will anyway, but God's will within us? There is always the potential to use or ignore your free will. There is always the choice to dominate the will of another or let another dominate your will. There is always the chance that you will decide to use your free will and take back your power. Jeannie |
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Free will is intrinsic to all thinking beings. You cannot ignore your free will. You cannot give up your free will. You cannot "take back your power". You can freely decide to serve another's will, but at any moment choose not to. You can serve another's will occationally and your own sometimes.
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Edited by
Chazster
on
Tue 02/19/08 12:22 PM
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Free will does not address only a choice of what action we might take, it is about how we choose to feel, think, act, and what we choose to look at, place our attention on etc. It is the power of self direction.
I agree, but I still say that the very knowledge of what is available to us necessarily places limitations on our power of self-direction (and therefore our free will, by your definition). You simply can’t choose to move in directions that you aren’t aware exist, or that you don’t believe are available to you. I’m quite passionate about this because in my childhood I was not aware of the choices available to me, nor was a fully aware of my power of self-direction. I personally attribute this to poor mentorship in the society in which I was raised. Although, that certainly wasn’t the only factor. They may have been mental disorders in the mix too such a A.D.D. (Attention Deficit Disorder). These things can definitely restrict a person’s ability to make ‘good choices’, simply by blinding the person to the choices that are genuinely available, therefore their free will (or power of self-direction) is also limited. In other words, even if the universe innately gave you the ‘power’ of free will, if you aren’t knowledgeable of what choices are truly available, then your free will is quite limited. This is all I’m saying. Free will is ultimately dependent on knowledge and wisdom. An unwise person does not have the free will to make wise decisions, for example. They just don’t have the tools to do it! They can only make the wisest decisions within their realm of capability. This doesn’t mean that they have no free will, but it certainly implies that their free will is limited with respect to the free will of someone who has the wisdom to make better choices. I guess what I’m really trying to say is that everyone does not have the same level of free will because of this limiting factor of not being able to choose from things we aren’t even aware exist, or that we have come to believe are beyond our reach. No your free will is never limited. Your choices may be limited, but your capacity to make that choice is not. I may have 1000 options or I may have 2, either way I still have the ability to chose. That ability belongs to me and me alone. That ability is free will, not the options. The act of choosing and the choices are different. |
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You absolutely can, as I explained above.
All you're saying is that you have the free will to forfeit your free will. I can't argue with that. You certainly can do that. I'm just saying that in making that choice you are indeed choosing to forfeit your free will to appease the will of another. The fact that you did it freely doesn't change the outcome. You do not have to forfeit your free will to obey another. Example- you mother tells you to do your homework. You can either do it or not, but you know if you don't you will be punished. You decide you would rather do your homework and not get punished so you can hang out with your friends later. You obeyed your parents, but you freely chose to do so because the outcome would have been better for yourself. |
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God's will is your free will. Same difference.
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People ignore their free will a lot. I can't tell you how many times I have heard a person proclaim:
"I had no choice." (That is of course, never true.) I have also heard many people proclaim: "I wish I could do that, but it is against the rules of my religion. or : it is a sin, or: it is not allowed." Here they have given over their power to an outside authority willingly. They are ignoring their free will for selfish reasons. What are those selfish reasons? They want to belong and be accepted by the group. Or they are afraid. There is punishment involved for disobedience. But they are ignoring that Will inside of them that really wants to be a topless dancer... or They are ignoring the will inside of them that wants to dance... (Some religions forbid dancing as they claim it leads to sexual acts) The worst example of ignoring your free will is to reject new information or refuse to even consider it because it might conflict with your religious core belief system. You turn your back on knowledge, science etc. Some cults even forbid the reading of information about different spiritual paths. The Church forbids occult studies and condemns them. They teach their flock that these things are "evil." Their flock follows. Their flock believes and gives over their power to gain new knowledge. Yes they do this willingly, but they do this under duress, threats, or promises. What ever reason, they deprive themselves and they block their free will, which amounts to the blocking of their connection to GOD. Why is it that some Christians dislike being called sheep? They themselves claim that Jesus is their Shepard and that they are his "Flock." Is it that they do not like being called blind? They love being called the "flock" at the Assembly of God Church in my town. If they are not blind, why do they follow without question? Or do they? Jeannie |
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Some religions forbid dancing as they claim it leads to sexual acts i love to dance.... 
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on Blindness of free will. Yahshua gave us the answer. Search the scriptures for in them you believe you have eternal life.....Blessings..Miles
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I thought this was interesting:
It is from the book "Power of Will" It basically states that Will is Free (if it exists.) FREEDOM Moreover, the phrase "freedom of will" is tautology, and the phrase "bondage of will" is contradiction of terms. To speak of the freedom of the Will is simply to speak of the Will's existence. A person without power to decide what he shall do is not a complete organism. Will may not exist, but if there is any Will in mind, it is free. Will may be weak, but within the limitations of weakness, freedom nevertheless obtains. No bondage exists in the power of person to will somewhat. Bondage may obtain in the man, by reason of physical disorders, or of mental incapacity, or of moral perversion, or perhaps, of environment. For the Will "does not sensate: that is done by the senses; it does not cognize: that is done by the intellect; it does not crave or loathe an object of choice: that is done by the affections; it does not judge of the nature, or value, or qualities of an object: that is done by the intellect; it does not moralize on the right or wrong of an object, or of an act of choice: that is done by the conscience (loosely speaking): it does not select the object to be chosen or to be refused, and set it out distinct and defined. known and discriminated from all others, and thus made ready, after passing under the review of all the other faculties, to be chosen or refused by the Will: for this act of selecting has already been done by the intellect." |
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Edited by
Abracadabra
on
Tue 02/19/08 03:32 PM
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on Blindness of free will. Yahshua gave us the answer. Search the scriptures for in them you believe you have eternal life.....Blessings..Miles Lust for a promised gift is the only reason to believe. Either that or fear of reprisal if you don't believe. What kind of a God is so desperate to be worshiped that the only way he can get people to love him is to promise them extreme gifts if they do, and threaten them with extreme punishment if they don’t? A God who’s sole purpose is to be the King of his own creation, and have every knee bow to him and every tongue confess that he is their Lord, is a seriously hopeless case. If a human were to behave in such a manner we would consider that person to be seriously mentally ill. Why should a God be any differnet? Simply because he is so powerful that no one can challenge him? A demon could claim that role! The mistake that the authors of the Bible made was making God too arrogant. If they hadn’t demanded that the God be worshiped they might have had a believable story. If they had offered eternal life without any fear of reprisal, other than a simple peaceful death if you aren’t interested, they might have had a believable story. They simply made God out to be way too arrogant forcing the issue with the threat of eternal damnation. The simple fact that they invented the idea that you would be punished for not believing in this God is where they made their fatal mistake. That was a tactic to scare people into being afraid of rejecting their religion. A religion they were using to control people. No genuinely loving God would have made that fatal error. Because, to be like that, would no longer be a loving God, but instead it beomes a demon who demands to be loved or else he'll punish you! Only a demon would make such a threat. Or, mortal men with an agenda. The idea of a loving God who threatens to punish those who don’t love him is ludicrous. That was their fatal error. This is what gave the Bible away as having been written by arrogant controlling male chauvinist pigs. There’s no way that a genuinely loving God could be so arrogant. Love Me! Or Go to Hell! That’s not a loving God!!! 
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Love Me! Or Go to Hell!
That’s not a loving God!!! noway No, actually that sounds like my X husband. 
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