Ancient lineage? As I pointed out, Oliver, a currently living Chimp, is a biped. What evidence is there that "Lucy" doesn't share the same mutation as Oliver? None. So if anyone believes Lucy to be a human ancestor, they must take that at faith. The fact of the matter is that science today can prove that a chimp can have a mutation that allows the chimp to walk upright and at the same time still be a chimp. The proof is living in Texas and named Oliver.

I would love to see the existing fossils of Lucy compared to the living counterparts in Oliver. I would bet dollars to donuts that scientists would discover the two are very similar to the point of being identical.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=379134&in_page_id=1770

Here is a family with five children who all walk on all fours. So supposedly, the children have devolved past Lucy and towards some lemur like ancestor? How about the obvious answer, they are inbred, mentally retarded and suffer from other mental and physical disabilities that result in their being unable to walk upright? The automatic assumption is that humans can devolve! The same thing happened with Oliver and Lucy, "These chimps can walk upright...it's the missing link!" An assumption is being made and all evidence is categorized as supporting the assumption. Then when we discover that Oliver is just a normal chimp, suddenly, everyone says "I knew that". But then we continue to pretend that Lucy is a missing link. How much faith does it take to look at one animal which is mutated and the very similar skeleton of another animal and say "Oliver is a mutant, but Lucy is definitely a missing like."?

Yep that’s precisely what it is, - MORALLY AND ETHICALLY 'DECEITFUL'.

Truly disgraceful. The epitome of hypocrisy.

Let's see Olivers pelvis and some proof that he hadn't been trained to walk upright, history suggests that may have been the case. A preferance to walk upright & having a body made for walking upright are two differant things, and as you can see Lucy didn't have a chimps pelvis but rather one much more like ours. But of course, you know better than every anthropologist who's examined Lucy's 3 million year old remains..lol;^]

I know enough to know that she doesn't have a pelvis. I have seen pictures of the skeleton and my po' feeble fundamentalist brain can see that two peices of a full pelvis is all we have.

As far as Oliver...he's a real biped chimp. If you didn't want to read the link I posted, you could look for yourself.

I already know about Oliver, he was introduced as an attraction indicating he may have been trained that way, who btw nolonger walks upright in his old age. I just gave you a link discussing Lucy's pelvis, what we have is enough to show it not a common chimp pelvis, but one made for walking upright, same with the knee joints. As I said, you know better than all the anthropologists who've examined Lucy..lol;^]

Must be a record.

Ummm....When did I say that Lucy wasn't bipedal? Can you show me that? Sorry, I just burned up your little strawman there, but I'm sure you can make another. The truth is, I said she could be a mutant like Oliver. I stated several posts back that I would like to see a comparison done between what little we have of Lucy and Oliver. Did you know that sarcasm and strawman arguments don't mean that you are right?

Strawman? DNA tests were down a few years back proving Oliver was no mutant but a regular chimp who had apparently been trained to walk upright. You said we didn't have Lucy's pelvis, which we do & is almost an exact match to a human pelvis, sounds like you're the one reaching at straws, claiming to be more knowladgable on the subject than all the anthropologists who've examined pre human species, namely Lucy in this case. But, you can ignore the evidance if you want, some actualy believe ignorance is bliss;^]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/humans/riddle/move.html

http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa022800a.htm

Not true. Oliver has 48 chromosomes, that is all the DNA testing proved. Oliver is obviously not a normal chimp, that can be seen clearly from looking at him.



We don't have her pelvis, we have parts of the pelvis as I have said several times.

Look at her skeleton here. http://www.physorg.com/newman/gfx/news/lucyfossilap.jpg

We have the left hip bone and the sacral area of the pelvis. We are missing most of the pelvis, we have around 25% of the pelvis.

And for your strawmen...

I have never said I know more about Lucy than anyone, but I did suggest that I am being more open-minded on the subject. That's the simple truth. Lucy is a chimp like hominid, according to science. The same science that once believed Oliver to be a human-chimp hybrid or missing link.

I'm not ignoring evidence, I'm looking at more evidence. Oliver is very similar to what the living Lucy is described as looking like. He is a deformed / mutated chimp. She might have easily been a deformed / mutated chimp. I have called for a comparison to be done between the two, to see if I'm correct. I'm being open-minded and calling for all of the evidence to be examined, but you are insisting "She is a missing link...la la la la...I can't hear you...la la la la". Shouldn't we be sure that she's not just a mutant before we run around claiming to have found the missing link? Isn't that good science? Should we ignore some of the evidence because of personal bias or ignorance of the fact? If Oliver was taught to walk upright, was he also taught to not smell like a chimp, have a hairless head and have a flat face?

Turtlepoet78,

Thank you for the two links with absolutely no explaination of what point you made that the links supposedly support. It's very helpful when someone offers random links and pretends that they support his/her point.

How does a mutant have the same chromozones? That kinda contradicts the whole notion of mutation. Oliver is not deformed either, he merely was trained to walk upright and no longer does so, science has proven Oliver to be just a chimp. Here you are, despite all athropologists agreeing over Lucy while saying otherwise, the remains show a pelvis and knee joints designed for walking upright. Oliver was a chimp trained to walk upright inorder to make money as an attraction, Lucy was designed by nature to walk upright in a time when forests had given way to open plains. But, keep denouncing evolution if you like, you may not change your views despite the hard evidance, not likely you'll change my view based on the hard evidance either;^]

'spider',

What I don't understand is your motivation in arguing your presumably indisputable scientific observations and findings on the religious chat forum of a dating site?!?!?!

I encourage you instead to harness the necessary courage and self-confidence, and present your arguments through the appropriate channels, and to the concerned parties of the scientific community. Who knows, it may result in the 'sidercbm' LAWS OF THE ORIGINS OF LIFE!!!

Please be done with us!!! It is a waste of your precious time, not to speak of the ungracious waste of your presumably indisputable observations on the origins of life itself!!!

We are not worthy 'spider'!!! Please go where worthier beings might be within grasp of the gift to humanity you could turn out to be!!!

And I suggest you seriously consider teaming up with young 'untamed' on your journey of enlightment of the sceintific community. 'untamed' appears to share with you a lot of the 'special talents' which make both of you 'unique'.

A mutant is a creature with a mutation. An albino is a mutant. A dwarf is a mutant. A person born without a limb is possibly a mutant. Are you saying that people with those deformities don't have the normal number of chromosomes?

Show me any evidence that Oliver was simply trained to walk upright. Your own websites contradict your statement.



Your own website says that his "his peculiarities remain a mystery", but you continue to insist that he was merely trained to walk upright in opposition to the facts.

I am willing to be that there are a great many things which you don't understand. The point I'm making being one of them. Poor Turtlepoet78 is very sad that I burned up all of his strawmen, but he continues to clutch their ashes and cry "We have all of her pelvis!", "You think you know more than scientists!" and now the mind-boogling assertion "A mutant can't have the same number of chromosomes as the parent!".

Sorry 'Turtlepoet78',

It's as though 'Dr. Spidercmb' completely ignored my honorable suggestion, and insists on publishing is 'indisputable scientific findings'...

... on a dating site!!!

I hope 'Dr. sidercbm' knows something we unworthy chatters have no clue about?!?!?

He must!!!

:)

Where did the website say he wasn't? He sure doesn't walk upright anymore, his "peculiarities" is to say they don't know why for sure, yet common sense dictates, given his origin to public eye as an entertaining money maker is that he was trained. Lucy's pelvis would not have allowed her to return to a chimp state of walking as Oliver has done in his old age. So, if Oliver was trained or if he was simply mimmicking his human companions, it still wasn't a mutation and there is no hard evidance to say he is a mutant. Yet I was the one called a strawman regardless of your speculation versus the hard evidance. Oh well, you're free to believe, I'll stick with the overall agreemant in the scientific community based on hard evidance in Lucy's remains;^]

Yeah, talk about strawmen, turning my "we have enough of her pelvis to know she was designed for walking upright" to "we have all of". Who are we to argue all knowing spider..lol;^]