Care to elaborate on such teachings?



You say you HAVE experienced.
Yet this statement alone tells me you never have!
DIFFERENT Convenants!


Te narrow gate (and path) just represents the difference between the amount of people saved and the difficult lives they live.

Just look at the persecutions of Christians by the Catholic church before the Catholic church said that all denominations of Christianity are now their "brethren"....hold, just a few hundred years ago if I said "the eucharist is SYMBOLIC" - I would be executed under vatican law.

So is the hard path of the Christian.



I agree; within the CONTEXT of which Ghandi ment --> Same experience as you with the "most Christians" explanation I gave previously.
I agree I DONT like either, because it puts ME in the same box and frames Jesus in a negative light.



I dont see what point you are making here, please clarify.

oh btw

did you fail to read this part..mr..know it all ?

Hello Dragoness

I am sensing anger here but it isn't coming from creative...

He is continually labelled ... assumptions are continually made that are false yet he is the one judged...

Assumptions are made that he doesn't understand Christianity. I've read all his posts and I don't believe anything could be further from the truth. Just because he chooses not to believe in a humanized version of God he is attacked...his character questioned...interesting ...

He asks questions ... well count me in ... this God described in the bible makes no sense to me either ... I don't buy it ... that is God made in man's image not the other way around ...

Wow a classic case of what would Jesus do huh?

This is a travesty...

The Church is not God .... nor is God limited to the Church

"Beware all ye gods who dare to better the lot of mankind,
For yours is the fate of Prometheus...."



I don't know who wrote it - but it comes in handy...

Artgurl, I have read creative a lot on here and he is an intriguing mind to me. I am not as advanced as he and some others are in the philosophy but I enjoy reading all of them. I have yet to see him be intentionally hurtful or angry. Even when he is being attacked at a character level. I think others misunderstand him sometimes. He caters to my feeble attempts at understanding and I appreciate it but I misunderstand him often too. You are a lucky lady with this one, me thinks

Thank you for the affirmation Dragoness ... I have seen creative be exceedingly patient when provoked in the threads. And yes, I think he is misunderstood by some here ... it is a shame really because the dialogue could be quite fascinating. People sometimes assume he has an agenda but he doesn't ... he's just curious and a thinker ... he likes the dialogue that can come of such discussion...




Yes I am

creaative soul my friend.

I am coming once again late to the party. My apologies.

I agree with you in that the gnostics apparently thought to teach the etherereal aspects and not so much the chronologic carnal aspects of spiritual life.

I suppose it often comes down to presenting Christ and letting Christ bring about the personal insights as opposed to conveying the simpler recognitions upon us all.

I wonder which is more coherent sometimes.

But many years ago, I suffered the lack of any awareness of a cognizant view of spiritual truth. It was unapprehended by me and the least of my longings. Certainly the least of my leanings in any coherent and communicable way.

Before I knew the Lord, many people would ask me if I believed in God.

That hasn't happened lately, or in the last twenty years for that matter

I like the words of a friend of mine who parked his heart at room temperature and locked himself in a bathroom and sat on a toilet with the lid down and fully clothed only to be found tthe next day, quite uninhabited, and one who was fond of jokes.

I think he knew he was leaving at that moment and did his best to make it an adventure and a bit of a puzzle to find him as he was.....his sense of humor was as bizarre as mine and quite harmless, but nevertheless......

anywho.....he usedto say, " life is a bowl of cherries, Rich. You pick em and I'll eat em" LOL

Ok...

There are many thoughts I would like to share(express).

I do not have time right now.

Hiya everyone...

Wouldee... my friend, how have you been?

Later peoples, gotta go to work..

I am going to make an attempt to respond here. There have been many things said which I feel I should respond to.

First though, I would like to point to the fact that every time I attempt to start a thread with legitimate and valid questions concerning Christianity, it seems as though the ones who join that do not agree with my questioning and/or my conclusions focus on my person much more than on my questioning.

As a result of how much 'faith' I had in Christianity earlier in my life, I understand that my words may be taken to be personally offensive to some who would rather not hear the questions... No matter how valid any given one may be, know that they are not intended for offensive purposes, more like awareness purposes.

Assumptions have run rampant in this thread...I have tried to overlook and ignore these, however it seems the more tolerant I am with the labelling by using assumptive and suggestive statements, the worse they become.


I have specifically said:



This is a very valid and true statement. I am not alone, I gaurantee...

That is not in any way lumping all Christians together. It specifies most of the ones I have been around. Believe me when I say that I have been around many. Furthermore, my exposure has also been of Christians with a wide variety of educational backgrounds...

I know that all Christians are not judgemental hypocrites...

Nothing could be further from the truth.

I do however recognize the assumptive and judgemental nature being displayed here in this thread. None of us are always completely innocent, myself included. I will, and have apologized in past, if I recognize my words as being 'out of line' or unnecessarily harsh.

I am going to re-direct this thread back to the purpose of displaying how Christianity has made Jesus the Christ. Let it be known that I am not and will not be attacking anything other than what I feel are huge misunderstandings within Christianity and the 'God' of the Bible. If the false assumptions of me continue, I will begin to make them more known...immediately, and then will return to the topic at hand...


Untamed:

Your first post in this thread assumed that I have not experienced Christianity... The entire post was based on false information... It is still false information...

'REAL' Christians? As opposed to make-believe? As opposed to artificial? As opposed to what?

I AM as 'REAL' as it gets my friend, I have grown far beyond the thief teachings which steal one from the essence of the Spirit within... Completely believed all of the teachings while still a 'virgin' Christian... While I read exclusively of the Bible, focusing on the New Testament, I found a new way to view things...MYSELF... and still do quite often.

The are many, many wonderful teachings within that book, and many others as well. There are also teachings contained within the Bible which have been attributed to 'God' that are not of 'God' any more than ones contained within 'The Satanic Bible'. They are words of a man... They are all words of man, some of which ring very true, and some of which do not. Quite obviously are WRONG...

The first step is the recognition of the falsehoods which so many 'belivers' in the Bible hold onto. Mainly the notion of an all-knowing, all-loving, all-good, and all-powerful 'God' who has human understanding and emotion without being human... That is what I call the personification of 'God'.

That notion should be kept in mind, because it relates to Christianity's core... That Jesus Christ is the saviour of mankind, because 'God' made it that way...

That is where I 'lump' Christians together... It is kinda hard to call yourself a Christian without believing that notion...

I no longer believe that 'God' sent his only begotten son to save man... That is false... so false...

Christianity made Jesus the Christ... The Spirit lives within us... in all of us, just as Jesus taught...




Again back to the parable I first used as an example of thief teachings of Christianity...


Here is a fine example of twisting the meaning of a parable...

I have quoted the parable and left the so-called translation out of quotes...





According to Christianity this parable means...


Meditation: This parable speaks of growth and harvest -- a continual process both in the natural sphere as well as the spiritual. A seed cannot bear fruit unless it first dies and is buried in the earth (see John 12:26). While harvest is the culmination or climax of nature's cycle, it also provides seed for future sowing. God's kingdom works in similar fashion. It starts from the smallest of beginnings in the hearts of men and women who are receptive to God's word. And it works unseen and causes a transformation from within. Just as a seed has no power to produce life of itself until it is planted in the earth, so we cannot be born again as a new creation in Christ until God makes us new in the power of his Holy Spirit. In baptism we die with Christ and we are raised as sons and daughters of God. The coming of God's kingdom causes a transformation in life, like the tiny seed which first sprouts, then grows and bears fruit in abundance. In like manner, the hidden life of Christ grows first in the receptive heart of a believer and then transforms that person into a noble and useful vessel of Christ-like holiness and spiritual power (see 2 Cor. 4:7 and 2 Tim. 2:21). Do you seek to be transformed in Christ?





That parable said nothing of the sort!!! Outrageous!!!

It specifically says that man knows not how...

It specifically said that the earth produces of itself(self-sustaining)...

It says NOTHING of being 'transformed in Christ'...

It says nothing of the 'coming of God's kingdom'...

It claims that the kingdom is like the earth... self-sustaining...


Now, If we can stay on topic without attacking me, I will explain throughout this thread where the legitimate questions are, and should be answered...


Wouldee,

My friend it is always good to 'see' you. I feel as though many here assumed me to be a Christian because of the value I still place in the Bible. I never mentioned the questioning that has came as a result of the recognition of the wrongfulness also contained within the text.

It is quite curious to see the change in how many view me which has came as a direct result of voicing the differences of my perspective. I still so love the Spirit, as I know you also do... the essence of our 'God'... within us, found only after we remove all that this worldly fingerprint has put in our way... Christianity does not always help one... unfortunately so... perhaps more often not than so.

Jesus indeed, can be a wonderful place to start, and it has been for me... nearly 12 years ago, my friend, I began to look within myself for what was wrong with me... I found that I had accepted false as truth, and had built a foundation upon masks.
Peeling away the mask of the worldly fingerprint is only done with very invasive self-recognition... It is a shame that so many look to find the answers outside of themself... such a shame...

Again... it is good to 'see' you...

creative soul,

Jesus Christ or Jashua Maeschiac (sic) has a meaning behind the label. It is "salvation is anointing."

That being said, I hold that the world of man changed upon Jesus' of Nazareth's execution.

The age of grace appeared unto all mnkind, not a select few. The apprehension was accomplished in a supercession of accusations against man on a plane not readily observed carnally.

As a result, we all hear from God and have the potential to realize our fullest development of content and character which personifies patient perseverence in abundant joy. What we all do with this is intriguing.

What is offered to us within the pages of the story leading to his life and times and subsequent heritage to us is an unction with the Creator to make a difference in our own lives and the lives of others as intermediaries and intercessors on behalf of a merciful and graceful intervention in circumstance awry in confusion and neglect at the least. But I do not witness this endowment among men but rarely.

Perhaps the grace we all are living under does not equate to ancient realities and is not coherent to but a few who have stepped too far amiss and retrieved the youthful joy later with great relief. Refreshment and repair bring one back to the simple wonder and awe of our youthfulness, be it moments or seasons, and offer perspective rarely experienced by most.

In the end, there are two divergent aspects to Christianity that cause great dissension and debate. A personal intimacy with creation and its fruits, aand on the other hand, a personal intimacy with spiritual truths.

The cohesiveness of the two are polar examples of our condition as autonomous bipedal organisms, but in no wise diminish the other while one is embraced over the other.

I have come to accept that mankind is self absorbed and possesses a prediliction for advantage and privelege enlarged, or abandoned altogether as worthless folly. Neither preference of attention appears to alter the stage, but does color the players and enunciate diversity. The play is a repetitve geneology of the peculiarity known as man and throughout time immemorial may prove the unalterable course of our defined presence.

Ocassionally, one makes a noteworthy difference

no wut i meen?

Creativesoul. You have referred to someone's teaching on the Parable of the sower. Too often interpretation over rides the Bible itself. There are many teaching of men that for the most part make no difference whatsoever in our lives or the outcome of our life, none the less there are fought over to no resolve. Such things as are we saved by works or faith, freewill or predestination, or if the law is still in effect or not. All who enter in to these debate and conflicts have their verses that support their position. Yet it is not the scriptures that are in conflict, but when men take a position on their meaning.

One scripture says we are saved by grace apart from works, another scripture say that without works faith is dead. To me there is no conflict. Maybe it is like oxigen, we need oxigen to be able to live, but I must breathe in order to live. Or we could see that faith is the cause and wroks are the effect. You may say you have faith in a ladder but unless you get on it your faith is useless. Even in this matter I have added to the scripture.

What of predestination or not. Most would say we are not, I would like to think that I am the one who is control of my own decisions, yet if I am not does it change anything what so ever, I will still go on making my decisions according to what seems as free will though it may not be at all. If I am predestined and beleive my actions and decision are predestined and that I am one of the elect, that belief will not change the fact of whether I am or not perdestined. Such things may shape our decisions but have little effect on what is true or the outcome of the truth.

I am not sure ralize the seriousness of your series of questioning the faith of others though. I certainly struggle in my belief at times, do you wish to discourage me and have me to consider forsaking those things that have been sacred to me and by which I have based my life on. For what reason, for what good will you bring to my life, that I am full of false hope and that I have wasted my life in pursuing something that you do not think is real. Does my faith harm others, does it do me harm if I can find peace, purpose and direction in my life. Are not such things within people something that is sacred, and that we should respect and accept within one another. Yet I still claim that though my belief may be different from yours I do not think our path and goals in life are in conflict.

I think it is better to find the good in the teachings of others. Perhaps the Bible has flaws, I do not wish to think of it so, but again my thoughts do not change whether it does or not, yet I know something within it rings true within me and feels like LIFE. I do not hear or find life in the words of many speakers and writers, yet when I do there is something in me that is refreshed and encouraged.

What is the purpose of knowledge, if it does not bring about advancement, progress, growth, transformation, or at least add to the function of things, and assist in problem solving. What is faith based on, something inside of us that may be against all reason and logic. Are we not body, heart, mind and spirit, are there things truly that our mind cannot comprehend yet we understand such things in our spirit. Does love make sense to our mind, yet love is yet as real as logic, and faith as real as love. I know there are many who beleive in witchcraft, and goddesses, and some who choose to believe in nothing. I am not here to make every one as I am, I wish that I would love them and that if in sharing or the LIFE that is in me, I may stir the LIFE that is in them, that we all would walk in love and peace together.

I wish to accept them, I would not question what they beleive but would rather share my faith or the Life that is in Christ with them teaching of love and peace rather than that they are going to hell. I am sure they all have heard this enough.

I find most Christians do little because they are Christians either to be right, or to avoid hell, but such reason do not stir most of them to follow Christ and His teachings. I do not think you should so much look at those who do not follow the teachings of Christ, but instead look at how Christ lived and what He taught us about how we should live. Maybe Christianity is like a fax machine, rather than everyone going back to the original form, it has become copies of copies, and nothing is no longer clear.

Wouldee...

Ah, my friend... One thing I so respect about you is your conviction and your thoroughly studied understanding within yourself... It is indeed a much appreciated and direct reflection...

You are also privy to personal information concerning me which many are not... I suspect this plays a role in the differences between your responses and some others'...

In response to your latest statements:

Yes indeed, I would have to whole heartedly agree that when I took Jesus' words into personal account by judging myself of myself, it was the beginning of the search for the Spirit within... The 'annointing' of the Spirit happened only after my purist desires to be the best that I could be, THAT is ALL I wanted, and still continually strive for... Curiously enough, there were several factors within the church that deflected this intention of the essence of 'God'... The eyes of the Word, are not blind to truth... the divinity that is contained within the Bible rejects the neighboring words which are not... loudly and clearly rejecting that which is not of essence of Spirit.

That recognition ostracized me from the teachings of hypocrisy... A wonderful separation from even more of the thief teaching which coincided with the continued lifting of the worldy fingerprint that had been internalized within me...

I love what the Spirit has done and continues to do within me... Completely nested within us, silently nurturing those things within one which need attention... shining a light on the darkness... the extension of the desire to be the best that one can be... I am reminded to be grateful for that which has been realized...

The deprogramming of that which steals us from peace and love, and the beginning of the acknowledgement of the Spirit within us...

The light will been shown to each who chooses to turn it on... and witness how one looks to themself through the eyes which are not only of us... we are but mere vessels...

So, wouldee... whattaya think... Do I know wut you mean?

Much respect, my friend... I carry much respect for you.





MindOfChrist:

I believe that you may have found things that few can find... that few have found... that most may never find... they are within us, our own recognition of that which we have become, as a result of 'being' that which we are not meant to be...

I realize the seriousness of my questioning. It is not my intent to establish that Christianity is worthless... I would never believe that... It does do wonderful things for so many people... It also however, often creates monsters within those who believe in their being 'special' as a result of it...

The Spirit is misunderstood in my opinion...

The words have more value placed in them than the intent of the words... which is often unrecognized, in my opinion... The religion of Christianity produces far far more judgemental people that it does non-judgemental ones... This, I believe is only due to the mis-use of the message, by those who do not see nor hear what the intent was and is...

And where the 'gift' is found...

I believe that gifts are indeed manifested within one by the Spirit, even though the reasons are not understood, and the understanding I have so often seen used is often skewed beyond my belief.

More in tune to my understanding, I have heard it described as a 'ghost in the machine', an observer... silently watching...

It is my belief that 'faith' is indeed a very powerful tool of essence, the most powerful tool, often wielded as if it were a weapon... It does not require religion... It does not require tangible 'proof'. It only requires an absolute and total belief in that which is possible in reality... It has shown to be the source of miracles... if it were only understood as such, rather than a 'guy in the sky' who is taking a personal interest in one's life, and lending a helping hand. Why would 'God' do that and at the same time allow the unneccesary evil and grotesque things which mankind does to happen?

There is only one reason, as far as I am concerned... 'God' is not like the Bible claims... 'God' cannot stop those things from happening... or 'God' would, if he loved us so much, as the Bible claims... It is an unrealistic portrait... using man's paint... often, it is just the painting of the reflection within the author, attributed to 'God'...

It is the emotional portrait of human misunderstanding... not the portrait of 'God'...

Whatever thoughts one believes and focus on most will indeed birth more of those things... no matter of the moral or ethical quality... thought manifests reality... Spiritual thought manifests wonders of reality... It is all out there, be careful what you focus on...

I hope this clears up my position a little for you...

I do not believe in the personification of 'God'... it quite difficult to convey my intent without applying a little myself... for the reader's furthered understanding...

What is perceived as real becomes reality...

One believes what one creates and one creates what one believes.

Life is what one makes it...

Can you point to any specific morality that Christ taught that was not also taught by other religious leaders, such as say within Buddhism or any other religion?

I often hear people talking about following the teachings of Christ, and that the teachings of Christ are somehow unique yet I fail to see where Christ taught anything that was significantly differnet from other religions.

I’m speaking with respect to how we should morally live our lives.

In other words, what would a Buddhist, for example, need to change in order to follow Christ?

Also, if there are differences between what Buddha taught and what Christ taught, then why would that make Christ’s teachings unique, and not Buddha’s teachings unique?

Remember, we’re talking about morality here, not about believing that someone rose from the dead or paid for our sins on a cross.

I’m asking about following the teachings of Christ and how his teachings differ from the moral values of other religions? What is it that Christ is asking of us morally that other religions do not also claim to have as moral values?

Christ claimed to be the one and only true God who came to suffer, die, and rise again, establishing a unique and everlasting covenant with man.

Buddha is believed to be one of many thatãgata (thus-come-one). The historical Buddha is just one of several thatãgata who come in various ages to teach that life is an illusion and to remove human desires and attachments.


Christ taught that he is "the way, and the truth, and the life." The way to what? "No one comes to the Father," Jesus continues, "but by me" (John 14:6). Jesus comes to reveal the Father, the Creator of all things, so man could have fullness of life.

Buddha taught how man could escape suffering through loss of desire and personality. He held that every person must find his own path to nirvana, or the extinction of self.


Christ preached the reality of sin, the nature of God the Father, and the need for repentance and salvation.

Buddha preached the untenable nature of existence and the means to escape suffering. Buddhism denies the ultimate existence of sin and the necessity of grace.

Christ taught that God is completely other, but he also taught that God wishes to share his divine life, given through the Son by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Buddha taught individuality must perish and that everything is one.

Christ established a Church, with a structure of authority, based on his words and example. He said, "Follow me!"

Buddha left a teaching in which each person must find his own path. He stated, "After my death, the dharma shall be your teacher. Follow the dharma and you will be true to me."

Christ rose from the dead only once and will return as the King of Kings. He revealed his own divinity, saying, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58).

Buddha is a "model," regardless of whether he was a historical person or not. Buddha suggests that "there is no ‘I’; there is no ‘self.’" At his death, when he experienced pari-nirvana ("final extinction"), he stated that the question of the afterlife was "not conducive to edification."

It's not the difference in some parallel moral values. it's the power that's available to confirm the words and back them up. It is perhaps the lack of these experiences that confuse the brains of those who refuse to believe in Christ and not just "know of" Him.

Thanks to both Feral and Nuenjins, but you both seem to have misunderstood the question.

I specifically stated that I am asking what the difference is in the moral values. Period.

That was the question. I think we’re all aware of the specific claims of divinity that Christ supposedly made.

In case you haven’t been paying attention, both Creative and myself have stated on many occasions why we do not believe that Christ ever many any such claims of divinity as you outline them. Those claims were made later by the people who wrote about him. That is our position on that.

So I was asking MindOfChrist what would be the moral differences between following Christ and someone like Buddha. Forget about any supposed consequences of following them.

I’m asking how a person would need to actually behave differently between these two philosophies.

Sorry that you guys misunderstood the question being asked.

Can you point to any specific morality that Christ taught that was not also taught by other religious leaders, such as say within Buddhism or any other religion?



The answers I gave speak or morality also.........you just have selective reading maybe. Jesus Christ and his teaching all of them were specifically regarding morality.....and since you don't believe in the bible.....anything you would ask us is a mute point......since the Bible is full of "our" answers.....

Hi Abracabra,
I always look forward to your insights and wisdom.

I do beleive that the truth is the truth no matter what its source is. It is not so much of who said it, but more of a matter of how we ought to live it. I do choose to be a Christian, yet I am glad to be a follower of Christ and glad to choose to continue to be one, yet I do have the same question that creativesoul puts forth about God. I find it hard to pray for much more than for strength, wisdom, and for forgiveness. I ask for very little else because I am not sure that I really need much more. I know this is not what the Bible teaches yet I often do not understand the events in life that are hard and cruel, yet one thing I still believe is that God always deals with us according to His loving kindness. I choose to beleive this though my mind tells me otherwise or would if I allowed it. Also I focus on how I ought to live my life for surely that is more important than for God to grant me my every wish.

I often think we have turned things around in our minds about God in this way. We are often more concerned about what we want in our lives than what He deisres for us and how He wishes we would live. I can live in a mannner that is according to His teachings and this perhaps is enough to find the secret of true treasures in life. This is why I say those who live according to the truth of their beleifs I feel more akin to being a brother or sister than most of those who are Christians. I think you, creativesoul, are correct in many of your positions about what Chrisitainity is now, today, yet this does not in anyway show what it ought to be.

I beleive there is little that we can do to change this. For Christian's will continue to judge others, even though it is taught against in the scriptures and that whatsoever jusdgment they use toward others they themselves will be judged, it is those who are without sin that have the right to throw stones at others, and of course there are not too many of them. :) If a person truly see their position they would see it does no one any good to cast judgment on another. One must first be above others in order to cast a judgment on them, and I really dont think there is a human who really is in that position. Yet we can watch over each other, enourage each other, assist each other in overcoming obsticles.

I do beleive that God loves and cares for all. I know know the life that He deisres us to live is a life of love, joy, and peace. You shall know them by their fruits; well the fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, meekness, and self-control. These are the qualities that all Christians should diplay, it is sad that that is not as much of the way it ought to be.

Just spreadin' some loooovvve.