Except U.S. companies
pay a lot less taxes
just by moving overseas,
eliminating U.S. jobs
in the process.

With less U.S. jobs
there is less income,
therefore less spending
power for the poor and
middle class.

Here's a link that
explains how the U.S.
subsidizes offshoring
of jobs.

http://www.exponentialimprovement.com/cms/offshoresubsidies.shtml

i am not arguing that and that is not what we were discussing

i understand that and a lot of that comes from the free trade agreements

but we were discussing flat sales tax i thought

and like i said in the other post

NO CORPORATIONS NOR ANY BUSINESS FOR THAT MATTER PAYS TAXES

THEY PASS THEM ON TO THE CONSUMER

In response to government being bad or good, most posters have brought up some good points. The bottom line is that despite what our politicians are doing to our government and the way our country is being run, we are the richest, most powerful country in the world and we are free people. All of our citizens have the right to the Jeffersonian words, "the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness."

Additionally, peoples from all over the world come here for "The American Dream," for our educational system and to see our doctors/hospitals, because of our advances in medicine and technology.

No, our government is not perfect. So, go out and vote and try to engineer change where you see fit. Most of all, enjoy the privilege of being born in a country that God has blessed over and over again.

point is it is not really like this any more

except for the people wanting to come here part

adj4u ....

You said that you disagree with all I posted except for "the people wanting to come here part."

I am not being a wise guy or trying to provoke an on-line battle, but I am curious -- what country do you feel is the richest and most powerful in the world? Also, why do you disagree with my statement that Americans are free people?

Don't you believe in "The American Dream?"

The American Dream:

"The Dow Jones fully recovered by 2004 and U.S. household wealth rose 20 percent to $48 trillion--the number of U.S. millionaires grew from 7.2 million in 2001 to 8.5 million by the end of 2004." - http://www.paulzanepilzer.com/tnm.htm

In three years we have 1.3 more millionaire households in this country? Very impressive.

"Ten million new millionaires will be created between 2006-2016" - http://www.paulzanepilzer.com/tnm.htm

This says it all right here:

"ONE persistent bit of modern business folklore is that a man can no longer make a million, that the day of opportunity in the U.S. is past. The best evidence against such a pessimistic view is the number of new millionaires sprouting up from coast to coast every day." - TIME magazine http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,857937,00.html


The American Dream is alive and well. However, too many Americans are TOO LAZY or feel they are TOO ENTITLED to things and never strive to achieve prosperous lifestyle (which doesn't always mean riches).

Look at this poll:

"According to the Dec. 6-9, 2007, (Gallup) poll, 84% of Americans say they are satisfied with the way things are going in their personal life at this time, while 14% are dissatisfied." - http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2008/01/02/media-myth-exposed-84-percent-americans-happy-lives

Doesn't happiness with ones life essentially equal achieving the American Dream?

EIGHTY-FOUR PERCENT of Americans feel they are currently living the American Dream.

However, that may not be enough to some people, feel that everyone is entitled to it, and such beliefs are ridiculous. Nothing in life is free, work for it, as hard as you must, achieve your happiness on your own terms by your own determined spirit.

The opportunity to do so is very alive and well in the US.

The American Dream is nothing more than appreciating the fact that we have the opportunity and the freedom to make all the choices that affect how we live our life. I think some people tie the concept too closely to money and wealth.

starsailor .... you asked, "Doesn't happiness with one's life essentially equal achieving the American Dream?"

Yes, because "The American Dream" is not tangible, and there is no precise definitiion since "The American Dream" has meant different things to different people. It may be considered to be Frederick Jackson Turner's Frontier, or Horatio Alger's myth of success. In today's world, it can be a college education, love, marriage, children, a home and on and on. It is whatever you want it to be -- To sum it up, our government gave us the promise of "The American Dream" in Jefferson's words, declaring that we have the "right to the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness." So you are more than right when you say that attaining happiness is the achievement of "The American Dream."

Rosy outlooks indeed.

Now for reality.

Reality is that the so-called
'American Dream' is a dead
concept to a lot of Americans.

Proselytize all you want
about how everyone has
the freedom to pursue
happiness, etc..., etc...

blah, blah, blah

But the reality for
those of us living in
the real world is that
the American Dream is
forever beyond reach
for some.

Take someone who
worked for 10-20-30
years, is a loyal
worker, gone above
and beyond what
they've been
expected to do.

Then the company
either downsizes
them (lays them off),
moves overseas, or
otherwise finds a
way to can their ass.

American Dream?

I don't think so.

mnhiker...
You paint a dreary picture of America. Noone is forced to dedicate 10, 20, 30 years to a company only to get canned. They chose to do that. They could have made different choices and had different results. What matters is in America we have those choices to make. The "American Dream" is still alive and well. If you disagree then it is because of your own bad decisions.

I find it funny that people say stuff like. Bush running things into the ground. Do people realize that the president just can't do what he wants. It has to pass in the other sections of government too. Thats why we have a House of Rep. and a Senate. I don't think our country would be in much better shape with any other politician. The problem is that to run for president costs too much money and so people need people to fund their campaign and are held to certain "obligations" for their contributions.

Well, how quick you
are to judge me, mrtxstar.

How smug, self-satisfied
and sanctimonious.

If you don't know what
these words mean, you
can look them up.

I suppose you've never
made any bad decisions
in your life.

Maybe the American Dream
is real if you were born
with a silver spoon in
your mouth and had
everything handed
to you since birth.

The point is that,
for some people,
the American Dream
is out of reach.

Any if you don't
agree then you're
living in some
kind of a fantasy
world.

I live in the real world, I think the American dream is very much alive.

Good for you.

Wait until you get older.

I've already seen my father live out the American dream, I don't need to get older to see that it is possible.

Good for him.

It doesn't happen
to everyone.

And it's not
always their
own fault
despite what
anyone says.

mnhiker.... Re-read my post to understand what "The American Dream" is because you do not understand that it is the pursuit of happiness. It is a person's hopes and dreams. Those dreams can be education, a career, money, a family, a house,an expensive sport's car, a vacation, and on and on.

There is a story about a young boy who asked a wise man a question. The query to the wise man was, "When do we die -- is it when body functions cease, or is it when the soul leaves the body?" The wise man answered, "We die when we no longer have hopes and dreams."

Considering the above, you are nothing but a walking dead man. I feel sorry for you.

Mnhiker...
If life has kicked you in the nadds, I'm sorry bro. But don't blame America. I am living the American dream and my children are living the American dream. You only speak for yourself so don't make absolute statements like "the American Dream is dead". It may be dead for you but don't include others in that statement.

Nope, some people are not ever going to get where they want to go, for various reasons. That doesn't mean the American Dream is dead, that means that reality is greater than fiction.

I wasn't talking
just about myself.

I was talking about
people in general.

And you're misinterpreting
what I wrote.

I wrote that the American Dream
is a dead concept to a lot of Americans.

A 'lot of Americans'
doesn't mean all Americans.

If I would have written
that it was dead for
all Americans I would
have written that.

Do you understand that?