Does anybody else see the dichotomy of these two statements being in the same post?

Not to mention... The scientific validity statement and apparent rationalisations.

It is common knowledge that if you throw enough crap against a wall.. some of it is going to stick! Whether you choose to throw it underhand or overhand makes little difference. Really? That is all we are talking about.

We see it here too. There are many types of approaches to both men and women. Some believe that the best way to get their personal needs/ wants met, is to be straight forward. Just come out and say something to the effect of... Hey, I think you're hot. Wanna f*ck? Others are more subtle... Both if they do it enough are bound to find someone it works on. Otherwise, if they had any signs of intelligence, would alter their behavior if they aren't getting laid as a result.

PUA's seem to spend an exorbitant amount of time and energy in their personal pursuits, the study of it.. and by all evidence... the promotion of it. Most of us in the real world.. have lives, which do not allow for that sort of focus on a single aspect. Not to mention, most of us are not so obsessive/ compulsive as all that... We have well rounded, broad bases of interests and relationships. We do not have references in our vocabulary such as the seemingly dreaded 'Friend Zone'. The attitude of being ignored has never really struck us.

The thought of 'how' is not a prevailing one. We just go along as our mood and personalities dictate.

The difference between 'Niceguys/girls' 'Badboys/girls' and 'PUAs' is very little. The goal is apparently the same, in my eye's. Just the delivery is different. One is kind of pitiful in nature. One is forceful or direct in nature... One is analytic and in nature. All are pretty well thought out and designed to play on emotion, manipulate.

They all give way to much intellectual energy to the effort, talk too much about the effort, try too hard in the effort... and, I'm guessing, are mutually dissatisfied in their effort. Either way.. they are not getting enough.. no matter how much or how little... for all the effort.

Then there are the rest of us. Who do not fall into a category... Who live life on life's terms. Enjoying it as it comes... not trying to control it.

Yes but replying gives the children attention they so desire...



And that is a nice category to be in....enjoy each day for what it is...

"The more you learn what to do with yourself, and the more you do for others, the more you will learn to enjoy the abundant life."~William J. H. Boetcker

Jistme, you hit the nail right on the head. When I read these lengthy posts by individuals such as ChiefPUA, I can't help but think of hardcore Christians who have found God and spend every waking moment trying to convince others of their newfound beliefs. If it works for you, fantastic, I wish you the best of luck and congratulate you on your success but it is not THE truth for everyone.

I have found that just being who I am has attracted women. I am not much to look at, probably average to a little above average in the looks department depending on your perspective, but I am the real deal. I don't bull**** you and I don't try and add fluff to make myself look better. Will this "approach" work for everyone? No, but I'm not concerned with trying to "stack" the odds in my favor with manipulation and tactics. That means nothing to me.



I wish people would take this statement that you have posted and print it out and place it around the house and place of employment. Acceptance is such a powerful thing. Not necessarily agreeing with what is happening in your life but looking at it as a learning lesson. Giving thanks for those moments of true happiness and rising to the occasion when obstacles are placed before you. "Going with the flow" as they use to say.

Excellent post, jistme. And by the way, you have one kick ass profile.

The dichotomy isn't there because I have actually tried the nice guy strategy before, and for lengthy periods of time.


In every field of study there are specialists who focus their energies into said field. Without them, the advancements we have made into all these fields would not have been possible. I'm sure there are certain things in your life in which you specialize and excel. I mean...that's how people have jobs, right?

You are wrong about the PUAs being dissatisfied in their efforts. The "Nice guys" and the "Badboys" strategies may oftentimes involve tryhard methods (which is in part the reason they fail), but the "PUA strategies" involve not trying harder, but trying smarter, which is why PUAs achieve success in their endeavors.

So, I will say again that if this stuff aint for you, it aint for you. Plenty of people are happy without it. You are obviously one of them and I for one am happy for you. I'm not being a "hardcore Christian" trying to convert everyone into PUAs; I just think that I have something useful to offer to guys if they don't know what they're doing in the dating scene. I cannot help YOU, and that's just fine. Our worlds do not intersect in this regard and there simply isn't a way for us to force them together.

However, I ask of you to open your mind to the possibility that there are people out there that can become happier from learning some PUA-related material (geektothetenth has found inner-game to be very useful, for example). It's just not fair to them that you spit upon the PUA name simply because you cannot find room for it in your own life.

You have made all of us here painfully aware of that point. Your point fails you.. and helps mine.

AS aware as I am that there are some making some serious money at this.. We can also say the same for many self-professed experts. Such as any number of Televangelists calling themselves theologians. Radio talk show hosts talking of the paranormal. A plethora of authors, public speakers and private citizens who call themselves Doctors of, experts of, professionals of many variates of pop culture/psychology. All taking advantage of someone, financially, for sexual favor, and simply to expand on their own self worth by standing on the heads of others.

I once worked with a Pastor... Our jobs were to help people on the streets, the addicted, mentally ill, people in crisis.. We had two different methods of doing this.

He shouted and preached, whether he was invited or not. He was always the center of attention... Looking for press, looking to be called a hero... often found talking about himself almost as if he was the second coming. Taking advantage of one group in an effort to 'help' another. His goals were self serving in nature. He also had an answer for everything.

I led by example.. quietly... People less fortunate approached me, asked me how they might achieve some comfort and stability in their lives. My message was to them, as individuals, privately. I offered support in real terms.. and I never tried to exploit them in any way, for any reason.

I eventually left that work under duress by him.. I was one of his biggest antagonists and it became less then safe for me and mine. I found it to be more effective to run out from under the umbrella of an organization and much easier to protect myself from those with ulterior motives.

He was eventually forced into retirement by a well known non-profit and charity. For his practices... which took advantage, for all the reasons I listed above. Personally.. I would have pressed charges.

I'm not saying you are another one of him. I am saying that you, how you sound... what you preach...as well as some of the personalities you make reference to... remind me of him.

You call yourself ChiefPUA.. I call myself jistme as opposed to ChiefIT or Iknowcomputers..

You will never hear me refer to myself as an expert in my field, while I have been referred to by others as an expert in my field. You are found to frequently paint yourself as expert in yours which is really no field at all.

You make constant reference to those you have helped, in hopes of giving you credibility in this social setting. I stand on what little reputation I have, without feeling a need to bolster my own credibility.
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So.. no...please don't misunderstand what I am questioning here. You like to believe I'm attacking your lifestyle. When I am simply questioning your method and intentions. You..just as the Pastor did.. just keep giving me ammunition.

I actually didn't notice how my username could have meant "expert" til you pointed that out, but OK lol. Chief is just a nickname I've had for a while and it involves a long story - and I just stuck "PUA" after it because it's something I like to talk about. I never saw the word "Chief" as anything but a nickname but I see what you're getting at there.

I actually thought you were attacking my lifestyle this whole time. Thank you for clearing up that misconception.

You say that you aren't attacking my lifestyle but rather questioning my methods and intentions. You hint that I may be professing the PUA lifestyle for selfish reasons, perhaps in order to attain glory, and that I don't care about helping others as much as I care about boosting my own name.

I can tell you right now that what you suggest isn't true. I have mentioned before in another thread that I like to use communication in the most effective manner possible so that I can help the most number of people in the most effective ways. I can now see, from what you have said, how the style in which I "profess" what I know can be interpretted as a quest for power, but I'm only doing what I do to give others an opportunity to live life in the manner in which they want to do so, and I do not exploit them.

The "top notch" PUAs in the community got to the top and were heard the loudest, and their words all reached my ears. Over the course of a few years I adapted to their style of communication and noticed how effectively I absorbed the content of what they taught because of the manner in which they professed their findings. Whether the process was conscious or subconscious, I modeled my "professing" style after these guys in accordance to how effectively others understood my points. The manner is which I communicate is only reflective of what I found to be the most helpful to others thus far. If I ONLY led by example quietly, I would be helping a smaller number of people. I do not solely rant on and on about pickup, though. I also go in-field with my students and lead by example.

By the way, this is a side note, but I would like to thank you for participating in intelligent, coherent debate with me instead of immaturely slandering me without expressing a reasonably explained basis for your opinions. It's nice to see people who can actually turn their opinion on any topic into an intelligent argument. It's nice to see people who actually understand the purpose of a discussion forum.

Wouldn't it be nice, ChiefPUA, if the programs on television did the same thing? It's sad when they have things called a "political debate" or "discussion hour" and it always starts with a topic of discussion and ends with name calling. Can't say I haven't done it myself, but the "Jerry Springer" type discussions get old after awhile.

Whether or not you think PUA related things are stupid or helpful, might I suggest reading The Game by Neil Strauss. It's the true story of how Neil Strauss, aka Style, finds the PUA community and becomes heavily involved in it. It shows you how PUA techniques can help you and also the harm it can cause depending on how the person uses it. The ending is very fascinating, but I won't say it on here. 1) It'll ruin the ending for people who plan on reading it 2) It might just fuel the fire of those who ridicule PUA's. But I do highly recommend this book to everyone.

And for those who'd like to learn more about PUA methods, there is The Mystery Method by Mystery and The Rules of the Game by Neil Strauss (which comes out this Tuesday, Dec. 18th).

WhiteSox, is this the same Mystery that had a reality tv show a few months back where he trained guys that had trouble getting dates?

VH1's The Pick-Up Artist. Yep, that's the guy.

pick up artist? is that what pua really means???? dear god and until now i though it actually had something resembling substance .

VH1? You mean that network that has brought us other critically acclaimed shows like 'Flavor Of Love', 'America's Most Smartest Model' and 'Hogan Knows Best'? You mean to say that there are some that actually take anything they do seriously?

OK.. for conversations sake, I'll humor you.

I watched a handful of clips on VH1's site. That's about all I could stand.

What I saw was a bunch of guys who were probably ripped out of their Mom's basements when they were right in the middle of some online roll playing game. The term 'socially inept' doesn't even do justice to them.

They all spent a lot of time hanging on every word of three guys who dressed over the top, talked with authority, and criticizing their every move. They actively transformed the 'students' into something they were not.

The next thing you know.. I'm looking at a bunch of nerds dressed like rock stars. No matter how you package it.. you still got a room full of guys that have been ripped from their natural habitat of video arcades, basements, and computer labs, the world over.

Really all these guys were doing on this show was channeling the energy they used to devote to getting attention by feeling hopelessly sorry for themselves..to getting attention by presenting a false sense of confidence, pretending to be something they are not.
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I'm reminded of once walking into a room full of my peers. All men in their mid thirties to forties. If I was blind, I would have thought I had stumbled into a 13 year old girls slumber party, Only the voices were deeper and the vernacular used was a bit different... but all were giggling and yelling over each other, while preening one another, dying their hair, doing manicures, tattooing, trying on different clothing, patting each other on the back, butt.. etc... For their choices of attire, hair color, beard trimming styles...

They tried to suck me into this proverbial nightmare. Telling me I would get lots more dates if I had platinum blond or red strip in my hair... maybe a skull tattoo on my shoulder. Inviting me to go with them to a club scene in Portland that attracts the 18 to 22 year old crowd..

I politely declined.. saying I just needed to look at one of their roommates computers before I went to my girlfriends, in hopes of regaining what bit of manhood I must have lost just by standing there talking to them for that one moment.

The only consolation of my witnessing this was I was billing one of them (Oddly, the resident PUA) 70 bucks of their parents money per hour to be there, in an effort to eradicate viri/malware from one of the many porn ridden computers in the household.

But those social morons wanted to change. They desired to be something that they were not. So for arguments sake you're saying that if their "natural habitat" was playing AD&D in mommy's basement they shouldn't try to be what they want to be but rather continue their lives which obviously wasn't making them happy in the first place? If you want to pursue a goal, no matter how inane others might find that goal to be, don't you need to take an active approach to do it?

There is a vast difference between actively trying to change a behavior or life style, and adopting someone else's.

If I wanted to be a Brain Surgeon.. there is more involved to it, then buying a white lab coat and some scrubs, then talking like a Brain Surgeon.

LOL
Hey I could go on and on just as much as you can about how many things about Mystery and how he teaches people is "wrong."
However, his pickup model is still very innovative.
...However...ohhhh boy

Without Freud, the science of psychology wouldn't be what it is today. He opened our eyes to the concept of the subconscious and introduced his theories of the Id, Ego, and Superego to the world. However...this guy was a nutjob! His theories of psychosexual development were not only contrevertial... they were wacko lol. He wasn't really even a scientist because he could never experiment but only theorize. Oh, and he prescribed crack.

This guy was one of the first, but you can't expect anyone or anything to take a first step in any direction without stepping in some sh!t first. Mystery was one of the first (or the first) to solidify a pickup model that didn't involve more manipulative methods of hypnosis and NLP.

I personally disagree with a lot of what Mystery does, and I think you'll find that evident in the spirit of the things I write...and from posts that I have written that blatantly say something like "I disagree with Mystery" lol.

But, OK, I'll summarize my thoughts about that here so you don't have to do an extensive search:
Mystery's method of teaching = Outer game -> Inner game = fake it til you make it
What I think is best = Inner game -> Outer game = build yourself a strong foundation on the inside and the outer game aspects shall either come naturally or existing outer game methods will feel more congruent to who you are

But you could stay in a Holiday Inn Express ROFL and "VaVoom" ......... your a brain surgeon

My sides are sore. Those who can't do teach. I love it. Hey chief pus how about all the women who have messaged me about you harassing them and your inappropriate behavior in your messages? Can I get your thoughts on all the women who absolutely despise you and your views on this site?

Whoops spelling error. I'm sorry. I meant chief pua.

Those who can't do teach.

What do greasy used car salesman, trial lawyers, insurance soliciters, politicians, born again ex-convicts, and pickup artists all have in common? They have no feelings, compassion, morals, convictions, or love. They have an annoying game.