When the Book of Revelations was written, it wasn't part of the Bible. The Bible wasn't put together in it's existing form until after Christians were no longer persecuted.

Does anyone else know that revelations are supposed to the ramblings of a mad man?

yzrabbit1, I believe that God is really working in your heart. I believe this because I can find no other reason for someone to come to all the religion chat topics and attempt to antagonize Christian believers as you do. You obviously have questions that you want answered, but you have a poor way of seeking the truth. Why not try just asking politely. Like you would for anything else?

It may come from years of condescending comments from christians like
If you had God in your heart like I do you would know..
or
God puts truth on my side your heart is hard...
or
Jesus is the only way into heaven I feel sorry for you...

In the world I live in Christians are compelled by their religion to proselytize to other people. If there wasn't this constant hum of Christians trying to push their beliefs onto us maybe things would be different.

All that being said I think my actions of just asking questions and having a constant back and forth is tame. I don't go around calling names and trying to intimidate others from speaking. I encourage everyone to bring their point of view. I will bring mine in the same low key, straight ahead way that I do. To bad that seems antagonizing to you. Maybe you should ask yourself why your faith is so easily threatened by my comments.

ARE THE ANGELS CREATED BEINGS?

The angels were created beings. They were made by the being who became jesus christ.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

THEY WERE CREATED TO BE SERVANTS TO MAN

Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

CAN THEY DIE?
Is it possible for spirit beings to be destroyed, or are they immortal like God? Certainly God the Father and Jesus Christ have immortality. They literally have life that is self existent. For example, the apostle Paul writes of God the Father, saying:

1Ti 6:15-16 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

A Sovereign God
God is the Almighty. He created the worlds by His word (Psalm 33:6). He upholds the universe by that same power of His word (Hebrews 2:37), and there is not a word ever spoken by God that He cannot fulfill (Luke 1:37). In that context, what does He say about spirit?
From the verses above, we see the absolute sovereignty of God. He created all things and He has complete power over all, including the spirit world. The totality of His power is clearly seen when we consider the physical creation. The apostle Paul explains:

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Realizing that when we look at the physical creation in order to understand the power of God, we see that whatever man can create, he is capable of un-creating. In addition, when we consider that man is not anywhere near as powerful as God, and that our powers are but a feint reflection of His, it becomes obvious. Man is not more powerful than God. The “eternal power” of the Almighty Godhead is so great that, without question, he can destroy anything that He can make.

What about the Devil and his Demons?
Notice the first words God utters regarding the serpent or the Devil:

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; it shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.

The Hebrew word for “bruise” is “shoof,” meaning to “crush.” The word “head” can mean chief, head, principal, or even ruler. Thus, Christ would one day destroy the one who had become mankind’s ruler—Satan the Devil. This truth is also confirmed by the apostle Paul where he makes a reference to the famous verse in Genesis. He writes:

Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen

The New Testament makes this point even more forcefully. Here the Greek word for bruise is “suntribo,” and it means to “completely crush.” Satan will be completely crushed. Consider that if Satan’s end is worse than Christ’s, and if Jesus Christ was temporarily destroyed, what else can these verses mean but that Satan will be completely destroyed?

The Spirit behind the Throne
In the Old Testament, God speaks of the king of Tyre, and as the verses continue they lift to speak of the Devil. No doubt this is because the Devil was the actual power behind the king’s throne (Matthew 4:4). There can be no question however, that God is speaking of a great spirit being in these verses, and not only the human king of the city of Tyre. God says:

Eze 28:14-16 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Based on the words that are used in both Ezekiel 28 and in many other places in the Old Covenant, a picture is created in which spirit can be destroyed, but what about the New Testament? What does it tell us about this subject?
Tormented by Impending Destruction

When we explore this subject in the New Testament, the same conclusion is reached. Spirit beings, including the devil, can be destroyed. Consider the example found in the book of Hebrews. There the author writes:

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

The author of Hebrews makes a clear statement saying that Christ will destroy the devil.

A Demon Speaks
The place of torment that the demons face is the same as the rich man who is standing before the lake of fire. They both will be destroyed in this fire. This fact is made clear from a dialogue between Christ and a demon residing in a man. The demon spoke to Jesus saying:

Mar 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

In this verse the demon uses the term “destroy” when referring to his fate. This word is the very same one used in Matthew 10 in which Jesus says that God can destroy the spirit and the flesh. It is “apollumi” in the Greek, number 622 in Strong’s Concordance, and it means to “destroy fully,” “perish,” and to “die.” By this, the Bible makes it clear that God can destroy our spirit, and He can destroy the wicked spirits just as easily.

Reserved for Judgment
God will completely crush Satan, but when will He do this, and how will He do it? The Scriptures speak of both the time and the place that this will occur as being the judgment of the great day. This is the last day of God’s plan, ending with a massive lake of fire that burns up the heavens, the earth, and all the wicked. As Peter writes:

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.

If the angels that sinned are reserved for a judgment, what is it? What kind of judgment do they face? The book of Jude explains further:

Jud 1:6-7 the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jude explains that it is the judgment of the great day when the fate of the fallen angels occurs. Further, he relates that it is the vengeance of eternal fire. Thus, we see that their judgment takes place at the time of the lake of fire at the very end of the age. As Matthew writes and Peter later expounds:

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

From these verses we understand that the wicked spirit beings will face a final judgment. It will be an eternal judgment, one that cannot be reversed. We also realize that in this judgment the angels will be destroyed, and it will be in the lake of fire.

aRT

The book of revelation is a series of insets. They show the future from the time of John to the return of Christ, the setting up of his kingdom, and beyond. The book shows these prophecies in categories.

If you compare it to Daniel you will see that there is a perfect match. It is written in symbol, but easy enough to understand.

Thus the 7 letters represent eras of the church from Johns time to Christ's return.

The six seals are events to occur from Christs time until his return. These seals are repeated without the symbolism in Matthew 24,
White horse --false teachers coming in christ's name
red wars and rumors of war
black --war schorched earth famine
pale --sickness leading to death
Maryterdom of saints --the tribulation
signs in the heavens
The trumpet plagues chap 8--
There is the history of the two witnesses chap 11
There is the history of god's church chap 12
there is the history of the beast chapt 13
There is the history of those in the first resurrection chap 14
There is the history of the marriage supper & vial plagues #15-16
there is the history of the false church chap 17
The end of Babylon the false ecconomic system chap 18
Christs return chap 19
the first resurrection, millennial rule, satans releaase war and the final resurrection and lake of fire 20
then the new heavens and earth and new jerusalem 21-22

If you have a specific question, ask me

art

Hey, Art!!!

you better duck!!!!

Now this is funny

So Art, spider says that revelations is written like a mad man wrote it so that the people who persecuted the Christians would think it was nothing to worry about. Do you think revelations looks like the writings of a mad man?

i dont know about you but id be scared as hell if i ever met an angel!!!
http://www.sacred-texts.com/oah/oah/oah503.htm
http://yourgoingtohell.com/enoch.html
http://www.mt.net/~watcher/enoch5.html

From previous posts, I guess your name is Art. So, Art, I thought I would respond to your statement. I don't feel that my faith is personally threatened, and my God is certainly not threatened. I just felt that if you are so anti-Christian as you come across, you might enjoy hanging out where others don't discuss God or their faith. I for one, don't feel that it is my job to get you into any religion. A relationship with God is a personal thing.

LOL my name is not Art. My points come off like art maybe. No this is definitely a place to discuss the aspects of religion both good and bad. I don't just think that Christianity is bad I think that all religions that hold back the pace of mankind, that do harm to society with their close minded philosophies and habit of putting people down. I feel it is my responsibility to be here for my brothers and sisters. If just one person steps into the light of reason from what I type in these posts then it will all be worth it.

Ill be thinking for you

Why is 'Angel' immediately claimed. by a Christian outlook?


Why are Angels exclusive to the Christian faith?

Says who?

You?

Because you believe in the God of the Bible?

And that makes it so?


Hmmm....I have seen more 'angels' in human form, than any portrayed by bibles.

Everyday I see human 'angels'.

Interesting, I did not learn what defines 'Angel' from a Christian bible... not even the word, when I learn to write it, as a tiny child, had any reference to the Christian god.

Art


that is very interesting. I do believe the book of Rev. lines up with many books. The 2 witnesses and the 7 assemblies. Are Yahweh's eyes on this earth. Just like the menorah of Zech 4 and the 2 olive branches beside it who stand before Elohim. The 3rd seal is upon us as the scales of Democracy rides. Then death and hunger when everyone turns on each other as we are being conditioned to be sceptical of our nieghbors now. They may be terrorists. The 2 witnesses as they can do what ever they want come to present the world with the true Evangel that Yahshua started in Luke 4. The willowing fan is comming.The 2 witnesses bring and show the world it's fate and the curses of Yahweh as we can see in the flying scroll.Then Isa 28 even mentions them with the cornerstone. Rev. goes back and forth you see 2 different sets of people in Rev 14 & 15. 14 the elect. 15 THE prophecy of gen 48:19. The turning of the masses towards Yahweh who die for thier faith. So Rev skips around back and forth and goes all through the OT. What is your take on why thier is 2 sets of numbers of days in Daniel?

Dan 12:7-11

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever (that it shall be for a time,a times, and a half; ) and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my master, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, (there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.)
KJV
Looking foward to your insite into this. May Yahweh Bless Your House....Miles

Jess

You have not seen angels in human form. You have seen "good people".

Angels are "messengers of God"

Spider did not say that Revelations was the ramblings of a mad man. He said Revelations was written in code to "look like the ramblings of a mad man" so that the persecutors of Christians would not be alarmed.

you people are alarming me.Not all angels are God's messengers.I still can't figure out why he would create Lucifer and when he got fed up with him send him down here to wreak havoc.I mean he created (supposedly)two innocent people,put them in a garden and said basically stay away from the tree.these people didnt know right from wrong or consequences.they had zippo life experiences.they didnt even have a childhood.Then Lucifer comes along in the form of a snake and says eat the apple.who wouldn't,not knowing right from wrong?
If God made angels and one went bad,why didnt he just destroy it?He certainly didnt have any trouble drowning,burning or wreaking havoc with human lives.Are we a lesser creation in his eyes then angels?

how can you tell the difference between something that supposed to look like the ramblings of a mad man, and the actual ramblings of a mad man?






i.e.Revelations

you cant.The holy spirit reveals the true message to you according to Spider.

Not according to me, according to the Bible. That is what Jesus taught. That theme is repeated throughout the Bible. The scriptures can only be interpreted with the scriptures. That's circular logic to anyone who hasn't experianced the Holy Spirit.

So how come all of you are so sure?

Because a book said so?


These threads are hilarious...none of the bible is evidentially proven, none of any of the stories can be proven, and absolutely none of you were there....and yet ALL of you declare yourselves, experts.


Hilarious, so what clothes are the Emperor wearing today?