Wouldee, I have yet to hear you debate anything about this topic. All you have done is to jump in and try with a weak effort to stir the pot.

You have added nothing of any similarity to the topic, for or against. You talk with riddles and masked attempts at poetry?, and take on an heir of self-righteous all knowing, yet you say nothing!

Take your own advice and talk on topic!

Lets see the great debater that you claim to be!

(to avoid needless offense: laughter was inspired by Bibby's and Wouldee's comments)

Self-proclaimed adversary, indeed!

In the words of one of America's greatest philosophers and political commentators "DON'T TASE ME BRO!"

the topic is clear from the very start. Spider requested that certain parameteers be respected. I see no controversy. I do however observe much useless drama that onlly engenders strife among those that would hijack a respectable request. That you honor me with your callous disregard for good manners, let me add that you too have been wounded severly by your own words. Before you pick up a sharp sword, please note that it cuts both ways and must be handled expertly and with courage. Your contempt of my reminders is proof that you enter into battle not knowing your adversary or the terrain. Had your diligence been focused on Spiders requim you may have had a clue about the attention sought for in the address. Were you a man under authority, you would know the appropriate response of your will. Being that you are mercenary at best and vainglorious at all is condemnation enough. I stand PAT, Fanta

So the topic has now been detracted into 'my righteousness is bigger/better than your righteousness?'

Perfect.

And in the meantime women and children all over the world are being beaten, raped, murdered.

And again, nothing to resembel the topic!

What is your obsession with swords?
May there be an attemted self-castration ahead?
At least that would be on topic!!

"Hopefully; Hari-Kari"!.. says the 'Ressurected bibby7'..

Put plastic bags on the carpet..And, disinfect the sword!!

Can't have all those nasty germs!

I hear you Jess.

Thank you!

Regarding drama in the thread, we do all have private mail, and many here are open minded enough to listen/converse in private.

May I pose a question please?

With bringing this topic to the attention of the forums here, Spider, from an educational veiwpoint, which you posted in the earlier portion of this thread, how do you propose changes can be made?

And to all other posters in here, male and female?

I suspect there will be interesting solutions come about.

I have looked into the Mirror of Gladriel and the forces of Mordor have risen and they are breeding Orcs. Saruman has been perverted and the Elves are preparing to leave and there will be ugly war between Mordor and the men of Middle Earth.

Jess, I don't see any kind of short-term solution to the problem, nor any 'direct path' solution.

I think part of the solution (would also help with many other problems) will lie with moderate Christians and moderate Muslims making a deliberate effort to ebrace each other, to focus on similarities, to teach and advocate tolerance for the moderates of both faiths. I don't consider myself well-informed on this, but my gut says that the youth of extemist Islam (and adults who can be swayed) are better reached by moderate Muslims than anyone else.

Call me cynical or heartless, but I think the best approach is the long term approach - no point in trying to rush and save people (through military action, for example).

I think in some cases, we will just have to wait for an older generation to start dieing out or retiring from positions of power.

I think Abra mentioned how current US conduct is helping radical Islam gain converts - I agree, and think we must do the opposite, we must take a diplomatic approach. Even aggressive denunciation of this part of radical Islamic culture can be counter productive, depending on how and when its done.

i am an extremely optimistic person by nature but there will be much evil and blood spilled before enough of the current wave of extremists die off to make way for moderation. in the meantime sadly humanity must protect itself. and such defense comes at an all too real cost.

there is holy war throughout the world today and steps must be taken to minimize the damage. but passive resistance is not an option. a militant enemy when confronted with weakness will continue to hew opponents at the knees if not at the neck

the future debate and collective resolve has 2 fundamental integers to educate and inform wisely and support globally. 1) western youths that face the modern uncertainties of a global village with the means and will to encourage and enlighten themselves and others to respect all human life as precious and inalienably entitled to pursue choices and dreams with confidence and hope. 2)disaffected youths in emerging nations that are experiencing trememdous lack, deprivation, and abuse directly and indirectly from competing first world nations manuevering to claim supremacy in the world stage (over control of talent, treasure, resources and the rule of law) being shown deference to their needs and self determination. This merging of youth may yet take decades before the realizations necessary to sustain global human rights issues may even begin to form the concensus necessary to fabricate a shift in conventional wisdom. Hatreds and apathy among the youth today suggest a global war is on the horizon sooner than mutual respect and dignity for human life can be apprised as a fundamental global reality.

While reading this thread I was struck by one question ... and sadly it was not how to end violence against women...

instead ... it was ... If this post had been started by me ... would the dialogue have followed this angry vein? Somehow I doubt it.

Who cares how we arrive at the discussion ... Spider was not writing a thesis on the treatment of women around the globe. Like many of us ... he came across something that moved him and posted it ... I am not going to look for motives...or speculate on what they might be...

The issues are real. The oppression and the violence are real. It is a way to open dialogue ...

...sigh....



***this rant brought to you by your friendly neighbourhood artgurl ... now taking myself to time out***

I accept your apology Spider, when it finally arrives.

I do not make statements that are likely to cause offence without first having facts.

Peri'ah:
After the excision has been completed, the mohel seizes the inner lining of the prepuce, which still covers the glans, with the thumb-nail and index-finger of each hand, and tears it so that he can roll it fully back over the glans and expose the latter completely. The mohel usually has his thumb-nail suitably trimmed for the purpose. In exceptional cases the inner lining of the prepuce is more or less extensively adherent to the glans, which interferes somewhat with the ready removal; but persistent effort will overcome the difficulty.

So .. whenever you are ready ...

This happens in the hassidic jewish community. I know, because 1) I have seen a video detailing it, and 2 I know a mohel.

Damn right ... made me cross my legs when I saw it.

[shudder]