i dont support circumsision i said i am on the fence on that one. There are health beneifits to circumsision however, where this FGM is obviously sick any way you look at it.

Okay spider, here goes, female circumsision (spelling) is a barbaric custom, given, but if you look through history man has had many many barbaric customs. Islam is not the only one who believes in the circum. of women. As for the defenses of female circum. which are not "my" defenses, mind you, in a society that is third world, governed by a religion that makes man the complete dominate of his surrounding, woman are subservient, children are subservient, etc.... Add to this whole pot a belief that a sexual woman is evil and you logically get a custom that will curb her sexuality or completely delete it except for her duty to the man. And there you go. Now if you consider the beliefs of each and every religion and their customs, there are odd ones and strange ones and detrimental ones but it is their personal belief. I have had American women on my caseload that converted to Islam voluntarily. When I asked them why, they said they found what they needed in that religion. As for the clitorectomy, I do not know that they went through that, they could have, I would not have asked. If they did, it could not have been performed in a hospital here because it is illegal here. So it was their choice. Who am I to question? Shades of gray...........

Dragoness,

How can you generate so much anger towards the USA and consider female circumcision "logical"?

As to the women who converted to Islam, they probably became normal Muslims, not radicalized. That's the point. Radical muslims, not normal ones. They are nice folks. Radicals are not.

Regarding MGM and FGM, neither is by definition worse then the other, but IN PRACTICE I mostly agree with Spider's list of differences. I consider FGM an atrocity and MGM 'merely' a violation of liberty of the voiceless. Both are wrong, but they (in practice) are not equally wrong by any means.

Spider,

I oppose FGM and I oppose the war in Iraq. Consider that I can easily imagine a female in a 'radical islamic country' who resents her FGM and has the frutrated desire to transform her society from within suddenly dropping that desire to stand in solidarity with her oppressive culture when an outside culture uses military force against a neighbor county, while self righteously criticizing her culture. This kind of approach makes people dig in their heels, even when they know they are wrong.

Suppose, say, prior to the civil war some european country tried to invade the south to end slavery, how would the north have reacted? After repelling the invasion, what kind of atmosphere would our country have had on the topic of slavery? Maybe greater pride in our autonomy than concern over ethics?

i believe some health arguments for male circumcision are valid
and also that male circumcision is a harmless procedure. i also subject my kids to the pain of multiple vaccination without their consent.

female genital mutilation is different and abhorrent and should not be compared to male circumcision in my opinion

Its mentioned in Genesis somewhere too.

The covenant between God and Abraham, Don't quote me on it but I think that's where male circumcision came from!
Yeah, here;

Circumcision is commanded in Genesis 17:10-14 as an outward sign of a man's participation in Israel's covenant with God, as well as a sign that the Jewish people will perpetuate through him.

It can be very hard to help people who are not eager to receive your help.

Using force to help others is sometimes beneficial, sometimes does more harm than good. The decision is a complex one, but the degree of wrongness being righted plays little or no part in the reality of whether force will work, or just make things worse.

OTOH, the degree of perceived wrongness DOES play a role in how readily one can whip up self-righteous support for (possibly unwise) military action.

"OTOH, the degree of perceived wrongness DOES play a role in how readily one can whip up self-righteous support for (possibly unwise) military action. "

I'm not sure who suggested military action to resolve this issue...it certainly wasn't me. I created this topic to raise awareness. The more people who are aware of this practice, the more likely it becomes that it will end.

"The more people who are aware of this practice, the more likely it becomes that it will end."


Extremely doubtful. Slavery is illegal in most if not all countries of the world yet still practiced. As long as there are those who wish something to continue it will.

Not only that, karma, but when you are dealing with a person's faith in the religion that they feel is backing the practice it is even harder to get it stopped.

karmafury,

And that's because, most people aren't aware of how common slavery is, inside and outside the US. Awareness will reduce the frequency of these crimes against humanity. Nothing will stop them completely, but if Americans demanded that FGM be outlawed in any country that gets aid from the US or with which we trade, that would be a start.

'massage',
You wrote:

'... OTOH, the degree of perceived wrongness DOES play a role in how readily one can whip up self-righteous support for (possibly unwise) military action...'

There is a word which describes the fabrication of perceived wrongness, and it is propaganda.

Propaganda is the dissimination of allegations, opinions, half-truths, distortions, and biased infomation used mainly by political factions, or religious fundamentalist groups, with the sole intent of supporting an underlying doctrine and hidden agenda.

'spider' is using the most grotesque examples from his 'evil detractors', serving the most juvenile and mindless propagandish rethoric against Islam, Muslims, Iran, and the Non-Christian/Jewish world in general, with only one closed-minded, sclerosed and retrograde Christian protestantist and fundamentalist doctrine to kick. A barbaric, divisive, war-mongerng, old testament inspired crusade against self-prophesized 'evil'.

Different people on these forums, implicitely or explicitely sense and denounce 'spider's, or anyone else's deceitful approach.

What the world needs are religious reformers whom are dedicated to planetary ethics, and the coming together of religions through that which they have in common,
... rather than 'religious fundamentalist' whom are still stuck in a crusade like mentality, driven to divide, convert or win-over the evil unpure soul.


IMO, 'Spider's recent juvenile propagandish Islam 'slam' is to raise anti-Iran sentiment for the ill inspired direction the Bush administration is pushing for in the Middle-East.

Here's where that is at:

'... SENATE URGES BUSH TO DECALRE IRANIAN FORCE A TERRORIST GROUP...'
(By DPA)

'... The United States Senate urged the Bush Administration Wednesday to declare Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard a terrorist group to help the U.S. roll back Iranian influence in Iraq.

Declaring the Revolutionary Guard terrorists goes beyond standard U.S. policy of refusing to rule out military force against Iran, Democratic Senator Jim Webb of Virginia said. "It is for all practical purposes mandating the military option. It could be read as tantamount to a declaration of war," he said during debate Tuesday...'

So you see 'spider' serves us this mindless, thouhtless, puppet-driven rethoric lines of his fundamentalist masters, spreading the propaganda message of the week.

'... If we can horrify enough people against the Iranian regime, the public will support our 'war-mogering' agenda...' One almost here's them ploy out!

War starts when there are no more 'words', no more converging dialogue. When generosity and honesty fails. When lack of imagination and abscence of good faith cause a failure in language; no more words to bridge differences and give breadth to common universal values.

War; the victory of FEAR over LOVE, of darkness over light, of the reptilian brain primate over the conscience of the neo-cortex, accomplishes nothing, ever.

When the destruction of war ends, dialogue has to resume exactly where it was left when war was declared!!!

Don't fall for 'spider' or any other 'fundamentalists' hate rethoric. Denounce it right to the top of the rethoric masters: religious fundamentalist factions and churches, and the media and political whores, whom push their agenda in exchange for a few votes, or ratings.

Dialogue and convergence of religions, though progreesive reformers of all faiths and , ethnicities is possible IN SPITE OF THE RETROGRADE FUNDAMENTALISTS.

No war is necessary, simple DENOUNCIATION will suffice.

For those of you who would like to learn more about Islamo-Facism Awareness week, follow this link: http://www.terrorismawareness.org/

Please remember that hate and violence are NOT part of Islam. I only have a problem with Islamo-Facists / Radicalized Muslims. Those who attack me and call me a bigot, or a Muslim hater are insulting Islam as a whole. By claiming that any attack against Islamo-Facism is an attack on Islam, they are stating that Islamo-Facism IS Islam.

religion and religious feelings are powerful
and can be used for great good or great evil

but those who do not believe that there is
a serious recent worldwide threat
from Radical Islamists are poor students of
history

education is a conspiracy of the learned
against the ignorant

it will take a concerted effort to counter
this very real threat - this is a lesson
of the Taliban

History is witness to the mass destruction of countless cultures, and the almost complete genocide of entire races at the hands of Christianity. History is now proving that most cultures destroyed by Christianity far outweighed in morals and dignity what they were replaced by.

Since the effects of much missionary work, the cultural traditions of a people being replaced by some form of Christianity, are intentional, this means by definition (according to the United Nations) that genocide is the missionary profession: converting other peoples to Christianity and thus destroying them as an ethnical group, and denying the right of native peoples to exist as what they are, with their own culture, language, and religion.

For a variety of reasons a massive depopulation, in other words the death of a large percentage of the native population, follows. And this so-called righteous work continues even today around the world in the name of [Christian] humanitarian work.

The plain and simple truth is that people never give up their religion, any more than they give up their children or their parents...except when they are pressured with use of force or are offered attractive allurements.

The Christian Slogan that "Faith in Jesus is the only way to Salvation," besides being totally false, is also totally ineffective, in gaining converts. Trickery, treachery, bribery, and bayonetry, therefore, has to be used to obtain converts.

The Christian Missionaries know this blatant truth and Christianity's brutal and barbaric record of twenty centuries in winning converts, is a testament to the savage methods of Christianity.


'The Christian resolve to find the world evil and ugly, has made the world evil and ugly.' - Friedrich Nietzsche

When Christians were persectuing Jews, the Jews fled into the welcoming arms of Muslims. The Jews were given land, homes, food and comfort. They lived together peacefully until the radical Islamic movement. Those Muslims didn't disappear, they have been silenced by Radical Muslims and insulted by those who defend Islamo-Facism by claiming that Islamo-Facism is Islam. Why should peace loving Muslims be lumped together with their violent co-religists? They shouldn't, which is the purpose of Islamo-Facism Awareness week.

Our host wrote the following in this post:

'... Please remember that hate and violence are NOT part of Islam...'

... and yet, titled this very thread:

'... The Violent Oppression of Woman in Islam...'

Which is which?!?!? Under the denounciations, our propagandist host revisited his manipulative half-truths, and chose a different disguise to better hide the primitive and divisive foundation of his undefendable religious doctrine.

Our host displays the tricks of the lowest and cheapest propagandist there is. And consistent with the obsessive attitude of denial of any propagandist, our hosts treats those whom denounce the propaganda he spreads, as 'attackers'.

Distortion, spreading confusion, intimidation, half-truths and mischaraacterization are the tools of religious fundamentalists. They are the 'attackers', and they can't stand being denounced.

And eventhough I would denounce such primitive tactics of our host if I were standing alone doing so, I found myself in pleasant company, tripping over this quote from Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, in his Principles of Catholic Theology (1982), p. 377. I'm looking forward to read the deceptive and corruptive tactics our host will use to discredit Joseph Ratzinger, or his comments, since neither appear to agree with the misguided words and approach of our host.

Here is what he had to say about religious integralism, essentially synonymous of 'religious fundamentlism'.

“…we are witnesses today of a new integralism [read: extreme traditionalism] that may seem to support what is strictly Catholic but in reality corrupts it to the core. It produces a passion of suspicions, the animosity of which is far from the spirit of the gospel. There is an obsession with the letter that regards the liturgy of the Church as invalid [read: not legitimate or theologically suspect] and thus puts itself outside the Church. It is forgotten here that the validity of the liturgy depends primarily, not on specific words, but on the community of the Church; under the pretext of Catholicism, the very principle of Catholicism is denied, and, to a large extent, custom is substituted for truth.”

Our host can keep corrupting the Universal principles at the core of the Catholic Christian message, and spread his personal animosity, which is at antipodes with the Gospel,

... and those whom detect the lies and perversions spread by our host, can keep denouncing them, thus defending and promoting broad-mindedness, universality, and the coming together of religions, and humanity, rather than their feuding further apart.

For those whom which to counterbalance the retrograde message of darkness and division from the 'religious integralism or fundamentalism', I invite you to visit this link:

http://weltethos.org/dat_eng/index_e.htm

Site of 'Global Ethic Fondation', promoting inter-cultural, inter-religious research, education and encounter.

The foundation is headed by Hans Küng, a prominent Christian theologian, and champion of the ecuminical and Universal convergence of religions and cultures of the world. A religious reformer and rassembleur par excellence. Effective counter-balance medicine for this debate.

Sir, host, 'spider',

'... by those who defend Islamo-Facism by claiming that Islamo-Facism is Islam...'

That would be YOU my friend. Please read the title of your thread.

And to paraphrase your...
'... Why should peace loving Muslims be lumped together with their violent co-religists? They shouldn't, which is the purpose of Islamo-Facism Awareness week...'

... Why should peace loving Christians be lumped together with their violent co-religists? They shouldn't, which is the purpose of our very own JSH 'Christiano-Facism Awareness week'.

For without honesty, there is no salvation possible...'

voileazur,

As I have explained several times, I titled the thread after the video. Cut and paste. Why the video was named that, I don't know. Once again, you attack the messenger and ignore the message.