((((((((((((( Miguel ))))))))))))))))))

I believe God may have an intent for the world, for the universe, for everything.

However, I am uncertain how closely God actually interferes in individual lives to fulfill that purpose. If I believe God has a part in every little action, I would then have to accept that God causes or allows children to die horrible deaths, etc. And I do not believe God punishes or rewards individuals to make them behave (e.g. Heaven/Hell).

I tend to think it may be somewhere in the middle, that we may have several possible paths "fated" or available to us and our individual actions (free will) lead us to one course or another. This does not mean one path is necessarily "better" or "worse"- just different.

I think that God may have had an intent when creating but decided to leave some things open to chance. As far as being a good person- that has it's own rewards, primarily feeling good about your actions and the good you have been able to accomplish.

Oasis;

You said: "I think that God may have had an intent when creating but decided to leave some things open to chance."

I don't understand the point. Since God exists outside of time - there is no such thing as chance. How could anything happen that could "suprise" him. To an omniscient and omnipresent God - nothing happens by chance. He knows what we will do, or decide before the option is even put before us.

Eljay wrote:
“I don't understand the point. Since God exists outside of time - there is no such thing as chance. How could anything happen that could "suprise" him. To an omniscient and omnipresent God - nothing happens by chance. He knows what we will do, or decide before the option is even put before us.”

Eljay, you make this statement as if you are stating an indisputable fact that everyone will naturally agree must be true, however, everyone may not have this same view of god.

I believe that god does indeed “toss dice”.

God can be in control and not in control at the very same time.

How so?

In the same way that we are when we toss dice.

When you roll a pair of dice you have absolutely no idea what will come up, and yet you do.

You know that only whole numbers will come up so you know that you’ll never see a 3-1/2 for example. In fact, you know that you can never roll less than a 2 or more than a 12, and only the whole numbers in between.

So even though you know what the possibilities are, you still have no clue which of those possibilities will come up on any particular roll.

I believe that this is what God is like. God rolled the dice of the universe knowing that the boundary conditions are. There will be no “surprises” for God because only the numbers on the faces of the dice can emerge. However, God does not know precisely which of those possible numbers will emerge and so in that sense even god doesn’t “everything”.

This is my view of God. God does this on purpose. It is, in fact, this “controlled” rolling of the dice that give us our free will. We are free to be whatever “number” we like, within the confines of the dice that have been rolled.

In other words, I think of god as a quantum god, not as Newtonian god. Still ultimately in control by knowing that the realm of possibilities can be, but not pre-determinist in the sense of knowing precisely how thing will unfold.

So, in this way, I don’t share the same conclusions that you have put forth. I don’t believe that god knows precisely how the dice will play out. Nor does he want to know. For it is this uncertainty that gives rise to free will and the “mystery” of the “unknown” even though god knows what is ultimately possible, or not, in the larger scheme of things, he doesn’t know (and therefore doesn’t dictate) precisely how things will unfold.

So I’m in harmony with the thoughts of Oasis. I share her fundamental view of how god works.

Eljay,

If you believe that god gave us *free will* and that our decisions truly are our own, then it *has* to be this way. It *has* to be that god does not know which choices we will make. For anything less than that would be completely deterministic and the idea that we ever had a free choice in the first place goes right out the window.

God is the great *creator* and it was through the tossing of dice that god *created* our free will.

This I believe.

Abra;

Why is it that God must not know what will happen if man has a free will? This does not hold up as a valid premise to me. Just because God already knows the choices we will make does not mean we are not free to make them - or that we have a right to determine the outcome of our choices. I think the difference here is that I don't hold God to my sense of right and wrong. Do you think that what Hitler did was a suprise to God? Perhaps you don't. But more importantly - if you don't, do you now think God was "wrong" for allowing it to happen? Surely he could have struck Hitler dead at any point in time. Could have allowed the assasination attempts to be carried out as well. So it stands - in my mind - that it isn't illogical that God know everything while man still remains with free will. Just because we are free to chose does not mean God isn't aware of the choices. And it is only deterministic to God, not to man.

As to the "roll of the dice" theory... In order for this to be true, God as you understand it exists within the time frame that he has created. Which means that this essence of this God is one who has changed. This is totally illogical to me - for my idea of God is one who's essence does not change. He stood as perfection before his creation, and would not chose to become less after it.

This I believe.

Eljay wrote:
”Why is it that God must not know what will happen if man has a free will? This does not hold up as a valid premise to me. Just because God already knows the choices we will make does not mean we are not free to make them.”

How can you be “free” to make a choice that has already been made? That makes no sense to me.

Eljay wrote:
“Do you think that what Hitler did was a suprise to God?”

God would not be surprised when snake eyes come up on the dice. God knows that snakes eyes are within the realm of possibility. God made the dice! God created Hitler!

Eljay wrote:
“But more importantly - if you don't, do you now think God was "wrong" for allowing it to happen?”

No. Not at all. I understand this in a much larger picture. You refer to Hitler. What about natural disasters that cause pain, agony and death on large scales? Is that “evil”. Does the devil do those things? Or is that just a roll of god’s dice?

Eljay wrote:
“Surely he could have struck Hitler dead at any point in time. Could have allowed the assassination attempts to be carried out as well.”

I’m sure that god did nothing to prevent Hitler from being assassinated. You think of god as a separate entity in heaven looking down on earth from a throne able to change things with the touch of a fingertip if he so desires.

I don’t believe in that kind of separate all-knowing godhead. God is within us. Heaven is at hand. All gods ways are judgments.

“for my idea of God is one who's essence does not change. He stood as perfection before his creation, and would not chose to become less after it.”

Then where did your “evil” come from? A perfect god created an imperfect world? Did god also create the devil? Are there two gods? A good god and a bad god?

Your idea of a perfect all-knowing godhead who stands back and watches creation unfold before him is, to me, an extremely human-centric idea of god. You are trying to envision god as a person. To do so does open up a can of worms questioning why god would allow specific events to occur.

The way that I view god explains all of this. You’re concern about death or people dying is totally irrelevant in my view of things. Death is a meaningless concept to god. No one truly dies.

You talk about mass agony, pain, and suffering as though it is more significance than the pain and suffering of a single person. What do numbers have to do with it? Why worry about Hitler? If one person is abused and murdered then your criteria for evil has been fulfilled. And if that abuse and death was caused by a natural disaster was it any less “evil”?

Do you not like god’s creation the way it is?

Do you feel that god should have done something differnet?

If god wanted everything to be perfect, and god is all powerful then why not just make it so?

God made things the way they are for a reason. And I accept that reason. It makes sense to me.

I’m pleased with god’s creation. I have no complaints.

I don't need to question why Hitler was allowed to exist. I understand why god allowed this to happen.

That doesn't mean that I'm happy about it. There are a lot of things I’m not happy about.

Roses have thorns.

And so it is with god's creation.

I hate religious topics, everyone gets so defensive and It usually winds up a huge mess. Thankfully we haven't had death threats yet...

I see it as, if there is an afterlife and a god (Believe what you'd like) You can ask God these questions when you meet him.

Abra-

"So I’m in harmony with the thoughts of Oasis. I share her fundamental view of how god works."

Yes.

I agree witj Eljay a 100%
james, u've been reading to much stephen hawkings (if I'm not wrong the guy who wrote a brief history of time)

Eljay/TLW-

Why? Maybe God only cares about the beginnings and endings. Maybe how we get there is up to us.

And maybe God is a single entity, removed from us, or maybe God is made up of all living creatures- and each of us, together we are God.

Or maybe God is both at once, a seperated creative entity or force and at the same time a part of each of us...

Why not? God is beyond our perception? conception?

I don't know, sometimes I think I feel something. I choose to call it love. (who knows what love is anyway). I choose to believe it comes from a creator. Who may well exist in all of us. Or maybe this feeling is just wishful thinking; either way it makes as much sense as most of the other stories I've heard.

No...I have a plan for my life...I write my own destiny.

As a parent, if you make your child's life "perfect" for them, what does that child learn?

As a God, if one made life perfect for humanity what would there be to aspire to? Would there be a need for evolution and growth? Oh wait, supposedly that was tried with the Garden of Eden. Perhaps that is the destiny of "man" to find and maintain balanced perfection.

Abra;

to continue:

Eljay wrote:
”Why is it that God must not know what will happen if man has a free will? This does not hold up as a valid premise to me. Just because God already knows the choices we will make does not mean we are not free to make them.”

How can you be “free” to make a choice that has already been made? That makes no sense to me.

In response - Perhaps it makes no sense because you think - or so it seems - that because God is aware of it - the choice has been made. Not until we (collective humanity that is) make the choice - is it actually made, because we exist in this vacuum of time. God does not - He see's the end and does what he does within our reference of time to bring about the outcomes that He allows - but it does not negate the option for us to make choices. But as everyone knows - you can decide to go one way or another on a choice - but that does not mean we get our desired outcome. That may or may not be where God's influence comes into free choice without our having much say in the matter. How can we know. But we were still free to make whatever choice we desire - whether the outcome pleases us - or God for that matter, without his "having" to have influence on it. But this too - does not presuppose that he was not already aware of the choice that we are or were about to make. Unless you force God to exist within a time vacuum.


Eljay wrote:
“But more importantly - if you don't, do you now think God was "wrong" for allowing it to happen?”

No. Not at all. I understand this in a much larger picture. You refer to Hitler. What about natural disasters that cause pain, agony and death on large scales? Is that “evil”. Does the devil do those things? Or is that just a roll of god’s dice?

In response: I do not see events as evil - only actions. Actions come from the choices men make with their free will. Events are the outcome of actions - which may or may not be evil, depending on the choices you make given the perspective one chooses to have.

Eljay wrote:
“Surely he could have struck Hitler dead at any point in time. Could have allowed the assassination attempts to be carried out as well.”

I’m sure that god did nothing to prevent Hitler from being assassinated. You think of god as a separate entity in heaven looking down on earth from a throne able to change things with the touch of a fingertip if he so desires.

In response: Yes - I do. I can think of numerous circumstances throughout history - from the Revolutionary war to the Nazi's invasion of russia - where weather played a crucial part in the outcome of battles - and subsequently the wars themselves. This I attribute to the hand of God.

I don’t believe in that kind of separate all-knowing godhead. God is within us. Heaven is at hand. All gods ways are judgments.

In response: I do not agree with "God is within us" as a standard for all of humanity. I believe in the Christian concept of salvation - where one is sealed with the Holy Spirit (the third member as it were - of the trinity) at the time of repentance and faith in Christ. Without that - God is not "within" a person. This is what I believe. So we are vastly apart in this belief.

“for my idea of God is one who's essence does not change. He stood as perfection before his creation, and would not chose to become less after it.”

Then where did your “evil” come from? A perfect god created an imperfect world? Did god also create the devil? Are there two gods? A good god and a bad god?

In Response: Here again - I believe what God created is not evil - but the actions of the creation which are evil. The world that God created was perfect - and through the actions of "sinful man" the world has become imperfect - and is dying, along with every creature that walks, flys, crawls or swims upon it. This outcome is a direct effect of the action know as "the fall" which most are familiar with in Genesis.

Your idea of a perfect all-knowing godhead who stands back and watches creation unfold before him is, to me, an extremely human-centric idea of god. You are trying to envision god as a person. To do so does open up a can of worms questioning why god would allow specific events to occur.

In response: He does not watch creation unfold - he already knows eveything that will happen. I can't help but sense that you are putting the idea of a Christian God within the limits of time which binds man. So the only human-centric idea of God that exists is when a human puts this limit on God. Then it would be as you say. And neither of us belives that God exists within these limits.

The way that I view god explains all of this. You’re concern about death or people dying is totally irrelevant in my view of things. Death is a meaningless concept to god. No one truly dies.

In response: We agree. However once we pass away in this body and move onto whatever is beyond - as I'm sure we both believe - it is the issue of "salvation" where we now come to extremes in our beliefs of God and our eternal existance.

You talk about mass agony, pain, and suffering as though it is more significance than the pain and suffering of a single person. What do numbers have to do with it? Why worry about Hitler? If one person is abused and murdered then your criteria for evil has been fulfilled. And if that abuse and death was caused by a natural disaster was it any less “evil”?

In response: I do not see the victim as a circumstance of evil, only the perpetrator - that is the act of evil - causing the death - not the death itself. Therefore, a death of natural causes or natural disaster is not analogous here.

Do you not like god’s creation the way it is?

In response: I relish in it when I am able. It 's not the creation that I dislike - it's what the creation does to itself.

Do you feel that god should have done something differnet?

In response: No - I'm fine with what He's done - I just wish at times - that I would be more in tune with the way He thinks when I'm faced with decisions of my own.

If god wanted everything to be perfect, and god is all powerful then why not just make it so?

In response: He did.

God made things the way they are for a reason. And I accept that reason. It makes sense to me.

In response: Me too. Though it took a long time for me to come to this realization. I had a hard time with it in my youth.

I’m pleased with god’s creation. I have no complaints.

In response: I'd like the price of gas to come down. Other than that - me too.

I don't need to question why Hitler was allowed to exist. I understand why god allowed this to happen.

That doesn't mean that I'm happy about it. There are a lot of things I’m not happy about.

Roses have thorns.

And so it is with god's creation.

In response: And so it is.

Oasis;

Maybe God is all of those things. I did ask myself one question that led me down a different path of understanding - that question was: "What if the God of the bible is truth?" so I set out to answer that question for myself - and discovered that most of what I'd been told about God, or learned in my Catholic upbringing was not necessarily true. Then - after reading the bible with the undertanding that I would accept it as truth - as an accepted premise to my hypothesis - I discovered that there was a lot more likelyhood that it was - than it not. It just all made sense to me.

I don't like start being scholars about things very simple.
God knows everything because he is everywhere at anytime (I guess smart people call this omnipresence). Therefore, what I'm writing now God knows it since before i was born because what for us is a lifetime for God is not even a second.
We make our choices always no matter what. When we see the outcome we see God's will. Let's say for instance (now that this is a dating site) I like a girl, and no matter what I do I won't have a relationship with her. Why? Simply because she is not the right person and it's not the right time. Who determine that. Who else our Heavenly Father.
Sometimes there is a person that we even feel disgusted by his/her presence, and we end up in a relationship with him/her. Once again we have the choose to stay away from this person, but somehow we end up together. Why? Again God's will.
Suffering... My Lord suffered for our salvation for His own will, sadly because of our actions as a class suffering is a fact around the world.
Man by nature is not evil because is God's creature. What we are is weak. Weak to money, power, attention, etc. These kind of things make us take the wrong actions, so if we add each one of the people in the world we have a big mess. In which manner we see this? All the suffering sadly the poorest and weakest are the people who always suffer the most. However, that is what we can see now. But in the other world those who have suffered everything in this world are going to be glorified because they were witnesses of Jesus Christ.
The others well they shall have what they deserve.
Those people who don't belong to any religion, they call themselves atheists, but anyway are being moral and ethics, and they are always doing the right thing. They are fullfiling God's will even if they are in denial. I'm sorry non-believers, if you are a good person even if you deny God with all your heart you are still being a God's son or daughter and complying with His will.

*I don't like when people start being scholars about simple things.
Sorry

Eljay wrote:
“The world that God created was perfect - and through the actions of "sinful man" the world has become imperfect”

A perfect god can’t create an imperfect man and then blame man for being imperfect.

I have serious problems with that scenario.

I see that whole concept as having been made up by early authoritarians to control the masses. If you can make everyone believe that they are sinners you can have them under the thumb of the church.

For me, god is far superior to such pathetic human tactics.

I also see god’s universe as being far greater that a simplistic human-centric picture.

You are always suggesting that my view of god has limitations, but then every time you explain your view it seems to be riddled with far greater limitations.

I say that god through the dice of free will on purpose. In that view god made the decision and was in full control (i.e. all-powerful)

You say that man screwed up god’s perfect playground. Oh pooh! Where does that leave an “all-powerful” god? In that scenario it appears that mankind foiled god’s perfect plans!!!

It makes no sense to me Eljay. That picture is far too riddled with contradictions for me.

That picture also portrays a very negative and tainted relationship between man and god. I don’t believe that man’s relationship to god is fundamentally tainted by “original sin”. As I’ve said, I believe that whole idea is a control tactic used by authoritarians to make the masses feel guilty. To push that onto a god is totally despicable in my view. For me, god is far superior to that feeble tainted view.

I totally reject any god whose main connection with man is via ideas of sin, salvation and repentance. That whole concept sickens me. I see that as being entirely a manmade scheme to make people feel guilty. I wholeheartedly reject it as being ungodly.

Abra wrote:

I see that whole concept as having been made up by early authoritarians to control the masses. If you can make everyone believe that they are sinners you can have them under the thumb of the church.

For me, god is far superior to such pathetic human tactics.
--------------------------------------------------------------

TLW writes:
I can't see how the vast majority of the human race can be misled for thousands of years. If what you are saying is a valid premise. This is a naive world and just a few authoritarians hold the truth. My good friend James I believe that time and history goes against your reasoning.
I agree that a great part of the christian approach to gain and keep followers is to slave their minds with the idea that we are sinners and we are going to hell. As far as I'm concern I agre we are sinners. However, that does not mean we are going to hell. We are going to hell if we keep our lifes in sin. There are ways not as extremists to earn heaven as those that some christian people preach.
I'm a sinner and I will be a sinner my whole life. Everyday I keep in mind what are my weaknesses, and try to be strong. At the end of the day I review what i did and what i did not do. Then I pray not for forgiveness because I know God have already forgiven me. I pray for strength to keep going.
I agree with you as far as that the church have used God as mean to keep masses under control.
However, I disagree with you in the fact that that is true nowadays when information is more available than 500 years ago. A well-educated person has the duty to research, and not accept whatever the preacher or the priest says.
When I was in high school the priest told us that if we had sex before marriage we were going to hell, which I do not accept.
I believe when there is pure love to people they can intimate without being marriage. However, when sex is used as a sport then it becomes sinful.
It's our duty to go above those pathetic tactics which i agree with you were used for thousands of years.
But it's in our will to look for the truth beyond without denying the presence of God's will in our lifes.

Miguel wrote:
“I can't see how the vast majority of the human race can be misled for thousands of years.”

It doesn’t surprise me in the least. Just look at how religious authorities rejected scientific discoveries all through history in favor of religious superstition. They quite literally burned some scientists at the stake for even suggesting that doctrine might be wrong. Yet the scientists were right in ever case. Doctrine was indeed wrong.

It’s not a matter of the human race being misled by a few individuals. The whole of society bought into it, even the authoritarians themselves! It evolved to a point where it became a self-perpetuating lie. It’s still coasting into the 21st millennium on pure momentum, albeit it’s obviously running out of steam now. It’s been broken into over 2,500 different sects that become increasingly hostile toward each other. Protestants and Catholics are in complete dissonance. I believe that it will eventually dissipate altogether and eventually be referred back on as nothing more than a mythological nightmare.

Miguel wrote:
“But it's in our will to look for the truth beyond without denying the presence of God's will in our lifes.”

I agree that there is no need to deny the presence of god in our lives. I certainly don’t deny god. On the contrary I hold that god is omnipresent in all of us and in all of our surroundings and that we should strive to know god.

However, I will, and do deny religions that I feel falsely portray god. And I believe that Christianity is one of those. Therefore I must reject that religion. I can reject that religion without rejecting god because to me that religion has absolutely nothing at all to do with god. It’s a misrepresentation of god as far as I’m concerned. To me, that religion can only lead people away from god. It detracts from god’s true nature as far as I’m concerned.

Christianity is idol worship. It enhances and bolters the illusion of an ego rather than exposing it for what it is. It perpetuates the idea of “Us versus Them” rather than truly instilling a sense of brother love for all of god’s creation (not just humans).

Christianity is definitely human-centric. It places man and his ego at the center of creation, and blames man for sin. It’s focus is on salvation and repentance, and it promises to preserve his ego for all of eternity.

Pantheism is definitely not human-centric. It places man as an equal in all of god’s creation and places man in a position to be the caretaker of this creation solely be the sheer fact that he *can*.

Albeit Christianity has also suggested that man should be caretaker of the earth, but how many Christians actually bother with that? How many churches actually preach this? Basically NONE for all intents and purposes, they are too obsessed with saving their asses from hell and obtaining a free ticket into eternity. They are too concerned with their the personal salvation of their egos that they don’t have time to be caretakers of the earth.

I say, let’s dump this egotistical sin and salvation crap and get on with saving the planet!!!

Humanity needs a religion that focus on the universe as god, and not one that focuses on saving the butts of human egos from the pits of hell.

We have seen that the latter type of religion is completely ineffective. It’s time to take a new approach to appreciating god’s creation. I’m sure that god would appreciate a more optimistic view on life no matter what its based on. Christianity has become a negative influence on mankind as a whole.