Hey Oasis,

Not too shabby, thanks for askin' - you? Hope the weekend's going well for ya.

Actually, I believe I'm thinking of a different book. The Quran, not the Bible, although they do run pretty neck and neck with some things, the Quran is just more easily understood than the Bible is. I'm in the process of rearranging my life, so it'll take me some more time to find the correct verse for ya, but I'm workin' on it.

Second chapter of the Quran, pretty much sums that up, let me know what you think.

Hey Wench-

Great weekend on an island- I live in a kind of paradise but exchanging mine for a slightly different variation is nice for a change... my laptop sat unopened until now when I am back at home .

Thanks for the direction. I will look at the second chapter of the Quaran...

LJ-

On the nature of prayer- you wrote Kingbreeze - I would like to add that God answers all prayers. However the answer is sometimes "yes" - sometimes "no" - and often times - "wait". "

This is what I *try* to believe as well, although I do not necessarily believe God acts on us at all, I do believe praying can focus thoughts and energy and bring people strength to help them better cope with events that unfold around them. But this is something I really like about the answering of prayers:

"Praying is not about asking;
it's about listening...
It is just opening your eyes to see
what was there all along."
-Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche


Hope you had a great holiday weekend.

God works on his own set of schedules... and to this he answers us. so you just have to be patient and wait.

I've been away for a while - and wanted to catch up on a couple of things that were said. Oasis and Abra - I think that the only thing that tends to rub me the wrong way is when you - or people in general for that matter - voice their objections to Christianity by claiming circumstances or events that have been done in the "name of Christianity", and allowing that to be what stands as an example of what is wrong with the belief - when I have a hard time accepting that the groups responsible for the example are Christians to begin with. An example of this would be Oasis claiming there are Christian groups who are out to destroy the earth to usher in the second coming. There may be groups doing this - but by their actuations they are showing themselves to be anything BUT Christians. So why are they being called this? And serving as an example to vthose of us who claim to be Chritians - who have no claim of allegience or association to these people any more than islamics or atheists do. What I object to most often - are the groups who claim to be Christians - and are anything but. Oh, they may believe in a few of the things that Jesus said or did in the bible - but their actions and beliefs do not aline themselves with the basic tenets of the bible as a whole - but yet they claim the Christian label. Here is where I believe the confusion over Christianity lies. A Christian Scientist calls themselves Christian - A Morman calls themselves Christian - a Catholic calls themselves Christiian - the Moonies call themselves Christian. However, are they? Does simply being labelled a Chritian by the secular media make them so? I think not.

Oasis wrote:

On the nature of prayer- you wrote Kingbreeze - I would like to add that God answers all prayers. However the answer is sometimes "yes" - sometimes "no" - and often times - "wait". "

This is what I *try* to believe as well, although I do not necessarily believe God acts on us at all, I do believe praying can focus thoughts and energy and bring people strength to help them better cope with events that unfold around them. But this is something I really like about the answering of prayers:

"Praying is not about asking;
it's about listening...
It is just opening your eyes to see
what was there all along."
-Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche

***** Absolutely! I believe that God answers prayers through bringing about an awareness in the person praying. The quote you stated just about says it all for me.

lj

LJ wrote:
“Oasis and Abra - I think that the only thing that tends to rub me the wrong way is when you - or people in general for that matter - voice their objections to Christianity by claiming circumstances or events that have been done in the "name of Christianity", and allowing that to be what stands as an example of what is wrong with the belief”

This has absolutely nothing at all to do with my disbelief in the religion. I have countless reasons why I believe that the religion cannot possibly be true.

This is merely my objection to the religion as an “organization”. As an organization on a large scale it has been historically proven to instill bigotry and hatred on large scales.

Historically speaking the religion has been used as an excuse for wars, genocide, and the perpetuation of ignorance as it rejects intellectual thought in favor of superstitious beliefs.

Even today, it is used to denounce the observed fact of evolution in favor of the superstition of creation.

Even today, it is used to cause people to be bigoted toward same-gender loving relationships simple because of superstitions associated with sexuality.

The religions supports and continues to support ignorance and bigotry.

This is why I denounce it as a large-scale organization.

As a religion I personally think it’s pathetic. There’s no way that I could believe that the creator of this universe could be so pathetically obsessed with sin and salvation, nor do I believe that the creator of this universe would be obsessive with being worshiped and glorified.

I don’t believe in a human-like Santa Claus that raises pet humans to serve and worship him. That whole picture is, in my mind, and extremely pathetic one.

I also don’t believe in a “perfect” creator that would create a flawed man and then blame man for that flaw.

To me, the whole religion is so self-destructive and so negative that I very sincerely cannot understand how any rational person can possible believe it, or even want to believe it.

But then again, I can’t understand how loving couples can cheat on each other, yet this seems to be a very common behavior.

So humans aren’t always rational.

But no, the fact that organizations use the religion to incite bigotry and ignorance, has nothing to do with why I don’t believe in the religion. It does however, demonstrate that even those who claim to believe in it can use it for detrimental purposes (even possibly with what they believe to be “good” intentions).

I just have no need for it, because from my point of view, there are simply more positive ways of thinking of god. I choose the most positive picture for my creator. I believe that creator of this universe is a much more positive entity.

My belief in god does not require that I become bigoted or ignorant.

of course God has a plan for all of us...but part of his omnipotence is that He also knows each of our personalities and dispositions as well. So when a choice appears before us He already knows which way we will go. that's the beauty of free will. It's alot like the multiple choice quiz. The path he has for us is already laid out according to our individual make-up.
And yeah, all of those unintended pregnancies were intended-maybe not by all of us, but by Him. mine wasn't intended, but it most likely saved my life. Not to mention, anytime you have sex pregnancy is possible-so is there can never really be unintentional pregs.

Hey LJ-

Hope you had a good trip. Re:

"Oasis and Abra - I think that the only thing that tends to rub me the wrong way is when you - or people in general for that matter - voice their objections to Christianity by claiming circumstances or events that have been done in the "name of Christianity", and allowing that to be what stands as an example of what is wrong with the belief - when I have a hard time accepting that the groups responsible for the example are Christians to begin with. An example of this would be Oasis claiming there are Christian groups who are out to destroy the earth to usher in the second coming. There may be groups doing this - but by their actuations they are showing themselves to be anything BUT Christians. So why are they being called this? And serving as an example to vthose of us who claim to be Chritians - who have no claim of allegience or association to these people any more than islamics or atheists do. What I object to most often - are the groups who claim to be Christians - and are anything but."

There definitely are several groups who have stated that (paraphrasing) "God created the earth for man to *use* therefore it is man's duty to do just that- use it up. And the Messiah will not come again until the Earth is Used up." These have even been sermons at Church revivals.

I call them "Christians" because that's what they call themselves. And they use biblical passages to support their theorys/preachings. These sects are also known as "Dominion theologists" and "reconstructionists". According to Stephenie Hendricks (an Emmy Award-winning broadcast journalist with a 35-year career working for mainstream and progressive media who purportedly has worked for ABC Radio, and CBS TV) "Dominion Theologists are far right Christian ideologues who believe that by exhausting our natural resources they will hasten the Second Coming of Jesus Christ."

According to several sources (e.g. Hendricks book, "Divine Destruction” or the Point Reyes Light- http://www.ptreyeslight.com/cgi/opinion_archives.pl?record=1): James Watt is a Dominion Theologist, an evangelical Christian who believes that god has commanded man to extract as much as possible from the earth while awaiting an imminent rapture. Dominion Theologists frequently quote Genesis 1:26: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Apparently "have dominion" means not only "control" but "use up" to these people. There are many other sources- just google "dominion theology".

Now, is it fair to use this extremist group to represent ALL Christians? Absolutely not!!!!! I completely agree that the actions and words of these groups are not in line with the words of Jesus Christ as set down in the New Testaments of the Christian Bible. So I can certainly see you being upset that they are laying claim to your religious beliefs and then (I think from what you said) completely distorting them in your opinion. Please do speak up and reject these people... I find their actions "unchristian" as well from my concept of what the man Jesus Christ spoke about...

Also- please know that in my mind I am definitely not "picking" on Christians by using them as examples of the bad things that are possible within organized religions. I was raised by a Christian grandmother and mother. Christianity is my childhood heritage and the organized religion that continues to be the most pervasive (if only tangentially) to my life.

Christianity is the organized religion most familiar to me-and unfortunately many of the things I heard and saw in "Christian" communities convinced me that organized religions were magnets for hypocrites. Many of the Christians I saw said "love thy neighbor" and apparently felt their "neighbors" must be the same skin color as they were. They burned crosses on the lawns of those who were not. They beat their wives and children (spare the rod). They talked behind one another’s back. I could go on and on... so their words did not match their actions. I agree with you LJ, the actions of these people do not negate the value of the beliefs themselves. And I am in NO WAY IMPLYING or stating that ALL or EVEN MOST Christians behave this way- these are just my personal experiences, my personal disillusionments. And there were enough of these examples within the churches I attended to give me a poor impression... to say the least.

I have absolutely nothing against most Christians, and I find many of the things written in the New Testament of the Bible to be excellent advice and frequently beautiful. And I don't just have "some" friends who are Christians- the vast majority of my friends and family identify themselves as Christians. Do they believe these extremists views? No, they do not. They are just people- with good and bad characteristics, traits and habits. Flawed, trying to do their best- Just like me...

I could, as you suggest, as easily use another extremist religious group to make a point about the potential misuses of organized religions; you mention islam. We frequently see examples of islamic extremists in the news media. I know several Muslims who will tell you that these people do not represent them or their beliefs. That terrorism does not represent the Islam that they know.

Yes, it can be very unfair to judge an entire group by the actions of an individual member or subset of that group. But it is also, I think, important to recognize that these things happen, that people are using your religion to justify their actions. And I do think that you, as a practitioner of that religion, should be even angrier than I am that these people are doing so… so please be angry at them, and not at me… I’m just the messenger.

I deliberately did not read Abra’s post before writing my own as I didn’t want to be influenced by what he had to say… I’m sure he did a better job of addressing your comments so I look forward to reading what he has to say. And I am of course very interested in what you have to say LJ. It is in no way my intent to offend you or any Christian (or any faith). I apologize if it seems that way, I can only talk about what I know or believe… I am certainly willing to be informed when I am mistaken.