I am more your 60's flower child. A little bit christian and a little bit spiritual. God may not have a "BIG PLAN" for me but i believe we are here to correct our wrongs from our past lives. Sorta that karmatic retribution.
See...living in the deep south the one term that comes to my mind with "GOD" is a WHOLE LOTTA HYPOCRITS.
I have been given some real challenges in my dance called my life but my purpose has been revealed.

ElJay-

"Maybe God is all of those things. I did ask myself one question that led me down a different path of understanding - that question was: "What if the God of the bible is truth?" so I set out to answer that question for myself - and discovered that most of what I'd been told about God, or learned in my Catholic upbringing was not necessarily true. Then - after reading the bible with the undertanding that I would accept it as truth - as an accepted premise to my hypothesis - I discovered that there was a lot more likelyhood that it was - than it not. It just all made sense to me."

I respect your beliefs. But to me, the bible is so contradictory that I don't really understand how you (or any intelligent, questioning individual) can just "accept it as truth."

I frequently wonder if God enjoys our imaginations (which God created the potential for but then allowed to grow and florish as they would) and when we cease to live this life we somehow go whereever we think that we will...

So then you will go to heaven and I will be reborn... wouldn't that be fun?

Joshy-

RE: "I hate religious topics, everyone gets so defensive and It usually winds up a huge mess. Thankfully we haven't had death threats yet... "

Wow... chill out dude... take some deep breaths, meditate... I see no such hostility here!

I will pray that you find serenity!

for centuries people have just accepted the bible as truth. if you didn't and decided to seek the truth they labeled you as a heretic.

ever notice that if someone says that GOD didn't answer their prayers that others will say that your faith isn't strong enough.

Abra wrote:

"Albeit Christianity has also suggested that man should be caretaker of the earth, but how many Christians actually bother with that? How many churches actually preach this? Basically NONE for all intents and purposes, they are too obsessed with saving their asses from hell and obtaining a free ticket into eternity. They are too concerned with their the personal salvation of their egos that they don’t have time to be caretakers of the earth.

I say, let’s dump this egotistical sin and salvation crap and get on with saving the planet!!! "

This is a big problem I have with many Christian groups as well. But it is actually worse than just not caring I'm afraid. There are sects of the Christian right who are actively engaged in destroying our planet as quickly as possible because they believe that the "rapture" will not occur until our environment is decimated. Apparently, they feel that Christ will not "return again" until we have used up all our natural resources- they claim God created this planet to be "used by man" and therefore they are doing 'Gods will" by using it up as quickly as they can.

amazing what kind of **** is being done in GODS name.

King-

Re: if God doesn't answer your prayers it is because your faith isn't strong enough"

Yes, I hate that "blame the victim" mentality. I have seen it in Southern Baptist and other societys where people get sick and faith healers are called in and then if the illness worsens or the person dies then the patient is blamed because they "must not have had enough faith".

In this manner if something bad happens it's "all your fault." And therefore because their "faith is strong" they will never get sick or die??

In God's time is about right, sometimes. I got to help a couple of friends who are both married. Her girlfriend and her needed some gas money to make it home. Usually it is me needing help with gas money. Got to share some stories about running out of gas and being short on cash. Sometimes I have to be with friends who have been where I have been who are not saints; So far from it. Something that one girlfriend was trying to help the other with was something I have been dealing with which is spiritual growth. The wonderful thing sometimes is being with people who had really bad pasts. It reminds me of where I have been and where I am going to in my program. The bad past helps me to see that the present is good. It is the good that we are making progress today that really doesn't forgive the past but helps us to see that we are making spiritual progress through spiritual growth. It helps us when we are working with the newcomer. He can relate with us and we can relate with him. So many times we ask the question, "Why are we here?" And the answer is to help each other to realize that we are not the same people as we used to be. That in fact that we have matured.

King-

"amazing what kind of **** is being done in GODS name."

IT IS, IT IS!!!!!!

Done by *man* in Gods name....

Abra wrotes:
Christianity is idol worship. It enhances and bolters the illusion of an ego rather than exposing it for what it is. It perpetuates the idea of “Us versus Them” rather than truly instilling a sense of brother love for all of god’s creation (not just humans).

Christianity is definitely human-centric. It places man and his ego at the center of creation, and blames man for sin. It’s focus is on salvation and repentance, and it promises to preserve his ego for all of eternity.
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TLW writes:

James I would like to take you to my parish in my country, and you will see what I'm talking about. No matter how many words I use to explain what i see and u can't or don't want.
If you see what we do there, u may not change your view of christianity, but you will see that what you believe does not apply to the entire christian community
Moreover, I'm a christian and I don't consider myself any of what you are saying.
I even want to spend eternity on a campfire, listening to your music. Meaning that I'm sure you will be with me in the same place I'll go after death.

Oasis wrote:
“I frequently wonder if God enjoys our imaginations (which God created the potential for but then allowed to grow and florish as they would) and when we cease to live this life we somehow go whereever we think that we will...”

I seriously believe that this may very well be the case. People often say that with god all things are possible, yet they seem to have a very limited view of what heaven would be like.

If I could make a request of god, I would ask to live my life over again. Not in the same way. But with all the same people, or at least most all the same people. I would ask that I could live my life over again knowing what I know now, maybe starting at the age of 6 years old. I don’t want to have to go though complete infancy again. After all, god is all-powerful and with go anything is possible, so I should be able to ask for the wildest dream ever, and it should be no problem to for god to grant it to me.

I would also ask that no jerks were on the earth that second time around. (ha ha)

Yes, to me that would be heaven. To just live my life over again, in a cleaned up world. Not a perfect world by far. It would be far from perfect, but it would be cleaned up of unnecessary jerks and trouble makers. It would be all nice people only.

To me that would be heaven. And my focus the second time though would be to share more with all my friends and family, and be far more productive than I was in this life. I would actually like to do that for my mother more than for any other reason, so her being part of it would of course be a huge part of the request.

I would only want that to last a normal lifetime. I don’t want that for eternity. When that life is over, I’d be more than happy to move on to whatever next life god has in store for me. I would just like to live this live over again first before moving on if I could. That would be my request from a Santa Claus type of god.

I could think up a gazillion other requests too if this was an eternal free for all. (ha ha)

But seriously, if god could grant one request the request I would have is to live this life over again, with complete free will to live it differently than I did the first time through of course!

The thought of going to a *perfect* heaven holds absolutely no interest for me. Unless I get to define what’s *perfect*!

For me, a *perfect* heaven would be a huge spiritual library, where the “books” are actually interactive *lives*. You can simply be incarnated into any life in any time on any planet in any universe that you so desire. To me, that would be heaven, and may well be the state of reality. Perhaps when I die I will wake up and realize that I’m just reading a book called Earth, from 1949 to ????. Then I could just go back and re-read it (re-live) it a second time just like I would love too!

That would be heaven for me. A library full of an infinite possible incarnations that you get to choose from. I LOVE IT!

If my imagination defines my heaven then that’s where I’ll be when I die. In the spiritual incarnation library. FOREVER!

Anoasis wrote:
This is a big problem I have with many Christian groups as well. But it is actually worse than just not caring I'm afraid. There are sects of the Christian right who are actively engaged in destroying our planet as quickly as possible because they believe that the "rapture" will not occur until our environment is decimated. Apparently, they feel that Christ will not "return again" until we have used up all our natural resources- they claim God created this planet to be "used by man" and therefore they are doing 'Gods will" by using it up as quickly as they can.
---------------------------------------------------------------

TLW writes:

I've been teacher of first communipn for several years when we are on thre creation chapter. It's like an environment protection class. we teach the children that we have to take care of the earth because this is God's creation. To reinforce the concept we take them to the zoo or we join a group of people and go to plant little trees, so they can see the beauty of nature.

TLW-

Yes, I understand that not all or even most Chrisitans subscribe to those views. And I very much agree with you that:

"we have to take care of the earth because this is God's creation"

But there are groups of christians who do believe that it is their "divine obligation" to destroy the earth to bring the 2nd coming. I am reading a book (Divine Destruction) on this right now and it is disheartening to say the least... as I have said many times I find extremism leads to this kind of misuse and sickness...

Didn't the bible say something somewhere about people frying in the fire for trying to "bring about" the second coming?

How ya doin', Oasis? The good news about that style book - hmmm, thinking, I'm thinking, oh yeah - can it make it clearer how to offset the purpose of the book - ya know, do the opposite type dealy.................

Miguel wrote:
“If you see what we do there, u may not change your view of christianity, but you will see that what you believe does not apply to the entire christian community. Moreover, I'm a christian and I don't consider myself any of what you are saying. I even want to spend eternity on a campfire, listening to your music. Meaning that I'm sure you will be with me in the same place I'll go after death.”

I fully understand what you are saying Miguel, and I know that my words against Christianity in general are pretty harsh.

I assure you that they do NOT apply to every individual that believes in Christianity. Nor do they apply to every church. There are Christians out there who are wonderful people. I know quite a few Christians who are wonderful people. My mother was a devoted Christian and she was the most wonder person I even knew, and I’m not just saying that because she was my mother either. She really was the most wonderful person I ever new.

I’m really not down on individual “Christians” by any means. In fact, it’s sad that my posts often come across like that. I’m down on the larger picture of the world phenomenon of the religion in general.

I understand that there are good “Christians”. And good churches. I know that you are a good person, I can tell from your posts. All you want is for everyone to get along and be happy. You’d make a great pantheist! (ha ha)

I voice my concerns with the larger picture of the religion. I sincerely believe that as a world-wide phenomenon Christianity does more harm than good overall. But I’m fully aware that there are pockets of really great Christians out there.

I can only say that my disapproval of Christianity as a whole is genuinely not aimed at them. It’s like collateral damage in a war against a larger religion that I see as being detrimental to humanity on a global scale. :o)

I post a lot for the global audience, people who read behind the scenes and who do not post. People who are undecided. People who are fed up with Christianity and need an alternative view of god. I’m only bouncing off your posts. I’m not really aiming my remarks at your personally. I’m confronting the topic head on.

I hope you understand. There is nothing wrong with YOU being a Christian. More power to you!

Nor is there anything wrong with anyone else being a Christian if they genuinely get it right. But as Oasis has pointed out, there are far too many people out there who are getting it all WRONG.

So peace by with you Miguel. I do not mean to be attacking you in any way. You’re just walking across a philosophical “battlefield” of something much larger.

Please don’t ever take any of my posts as a personal attack. That is not my intent at all.

As it says in the forum rules:
“The concept behind these forums is to encourage anyone to participate and post their opinions and thoughts as long as they are on-topic.”

I’m addressing the topic, not the person Miguel. Always keep that foremost in mind when you read my posts.

James:
I fully understand where you come from. I've always posted in a debating manner over your comments. Not going against you as a person. I just want to show you my side of the story. That's all.
let's have

Wow this topic has really taken off. Abra and Oasis - I would like to respond further to what you have written, but I am on a plane to Los Angeles on Saturday, and can't take the time to write now. I will try to respond when I return next week if the topic hasn't died.

Kingbreeze - I would like to add that God answers all prayers. However the answer is sometimes "yes" - sometimes "no" - and often times - "wait".

lj

In God's time I think we all have a chance to mature. Used to be when I would go to church we would all have to try to be quiet. If parents had unruly children they would have to take them to a back room. Some churches have speakers to the room just because of this so that those parents can hear the service. Some have special people who have the function to watch these kids so that the parents can enjoy the service and dump the kids with these caretakers. What I enjoy about our spiritual meetings is that those same kids can be part of our meetings. We had this little boy and all we could hear was, "Mommy, mommy, mommy." The mother kept trying to apologize but the speaker who was a woman and who had kids just replied, "No problem. I can out hollar him." The little boy eventually seen that he was out hollared and just smile at the speaker.

Hey Wench! Hope all is well with you...

Re: "Didn't the bible say something somewhere about people frying in the fire for trying to "bring about" the second coming?"

I'm not familiar with this/these passage(s)- but if anyone knows where this is written I would like to look at it...