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| Topic: WHAT IS THE TRINITY ? | |
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The Doctrine of the Trinity
one of the main, fundamental, key doctrines of the Christian faith is the belief in the Trinity. Simply put, the doctrine of the Trinity states that there is: One God in three Persons It is not three Gods in one God – it is one God in three Persons. The Bible specifically states over and over again that there is only one God. This is why you technically cannot say that there are three Gods in one God. However, as you will see in the Scripture verses I will list below, all three Persons of the Godhead are God and Lord Themselves. God the Father is the first Person of the Trinity, His Son Jesus Christ is the second Person of the Trinity, and the Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Trinity. So if all Three of Them are really God and Lord Themselves – then why doesn’t God the Father tell us in His Word that we are dealing with three Gods? Why does He keep saying that there is only one God – when in actuality both Himself, His Son Jesus, and His Holy Spirit are all God and Lord Themselves? There is no question that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three separate complete and individual Persons with their own individual, unique identities. So why does God the Father keep stating that there is only one God in Scripture? This is one of the mysteries of the Trinity that many people have a hard time with. Here is what I believe may be a possible answer to this question. From Scripture, we know that there are only three classes of beings. God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one class in that the Three of Them are all God and Lord Themselves. As such, all Three of Them are absolutely perfect in Their actual natures and personalities. As you will see in one of the Scripture verses I will list below, the Bible tells us that there is no darkness in God. In other words, He has no dark side, no flesh. This means that God is totally incapable of doing anything evil or bad. He is totally and completely perfectly good in His actual nature and personality. However, the same thing cannot be said of the other two classes of beings that God has created. The first class of beings that God has created are the angels. The fact that Satan and one third of the angels managed to rebel against God and get thrown out of heaven – all show that angels have the capacity and the ability to malfunction to the dark side. If they did not have this ability and capacity, then Satan and one third of the angels would have never rebelled against God the Father in the first place. This one fact alone tells us that angels are not perfect like God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are. They thus cannot be considered gods in any way, shape, or form. The second class of beings that God has created is the human race. The Bible specifically states that all men and all women have sinned and have fallen way short of the glory of God. This is why Jesus had to come down to die for all of our sins. The Bible says that all men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and makes no exceptions. In other words – all humans are imperfect just like all of the angels are. This now leads us to one simple conclusion. Since all humans and all angels are imperfect – this now means that no angels and no humans can ever be considered to be gods themselves – no matter how much Satan would still like to believe that, and no matter how many New Age gurus would like to try and tell you otherwise with their false teachings that we are all little gods ourselves. Now here is why I believe that God the Father has the Trinity set up under the statement of “One God in three Persons.” Since God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all God and Lord Themselves – this means that all Three of Them are totally perfect in Their actual personalities. And if They are totally perfect in Their actual personalities – then this now means They are totally capable of being perfectly one with one another. As you will see in several of the Scripture verses below – Jesus keeps repeating the statement that He and His Father “are one.” In other words, They are perfectly one with one another, They are in perfect harmony with one another, They are in perfect agreement with one another. Since the Two of Them are both God and Lord Themselves – this now means this divine union between the Two of them is a perfect divine union. This perfect divine union of oneness between the Two of Them is so perfect, that God the Father can now say that there is only one God – not 3 separate Gods. The same thing goes for the Holy Spirit. As you will see in a Scripture verse I will list below, this verse also says that the Holy Spirit is perfectly “one” with both God and Jesus. And since the Bible specifically tells us that the Holy Spirit is God and Lord Himself – then this now means His personal divine union with both God and Jesus is a perfect divine union. As such, He too can be included as being part of the Godhead – where God the Father can now state that there is only one God, but one God in three, separate, perfect Persons within the actual Godhead itself. Since all angels and all humans are imperfect, this means that we are not capable of establishing any kind of perfect, divine, God-union with either God Himself or with any other human. Only God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit have the ability to establish a perfect divine union with either Themselves, with one of us, or one of Their angels. I believe this “perfect divine oneness,” this “perfect divine union” between God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is so “God-perfect” – that God the Father can now state that there is only one true God – but one God in three separate, unique, and individual Persons. 1. One God in Three Persons There is one big whopper mammoth verse that you can literally base the entire doctrine of the Trinity on. Here it is: “For there are three who bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.” (1 John 5:7) As you will see in a verse I will list below, the Word is Jesus. This verse is now telling us that God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are “one.” This verse is telling us that we are specifically dealing with a God Trinity involving three separate Persons – but with all Three of these Persons being “perfectly one” with one another! In the 3 captions I will list below, I will give you some of the main verses from Scripture that will specifically tell us that God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are all God and Lord Themselves. And if They are all God and Lord Themselves, and above verse is telling us that They are perfectly one with one another – then the Bible has just given us perfect proof that we are now dealing with a Holy Divine Trinity of one God in three Persons. It’s like putting together a jigsaw puzzle. Once you have all of the puzzle pieces put together and put right next to one another – it then becomes quite easy to see what God is trying to tell us with some of this deeper revelation! I believe the above verse is one of the major foundational verses in which to base the entire doctrine of the Trinity on since it is specifically telling us that all three Persons of the Godhead are “perfectly one” with one another. 2. God the Father is God and Lord Himself In order to complete the above verse, we now have to show that both God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are all God and Lord Themselves. In this caption, I will give you 10 major power verses all showing that not only is God the Father God and Lord Himself – but that there are no other gods in the entire scheme of things than can even begin to sit next to Him. The actual wording in some of these verses are very intense in the way they are stating that there is only one God and that there are no other gods anywhere else that can compete with Him for this title. Here are 10 extremely strong verses all showing us that God the Father is God and Lord Himself, and that there are no other beings, either human or angelic, that can even begin to compete with Him for this title. “… yet for us there is only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.” (1 Corinthians 8:6) “But the Lord is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King … thus you shall say to them: “The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under these heavens.” He has made the earth by His power, He has established the world by His wisdom, and has stretched out the heavens at His discretion … For He is the maker of all things.” (Jeremiah 10:10-16) “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, and his redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God … Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.’ ” (Isaiah 44: 6,8) “To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord Himself is God; there is none other besides Him … that the Lord Himself is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.” (Deuteronomy 4:35-39) “Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no savior … Indeed before the day was, I am He; and there is no one who can deliver out of My hand; I work, and who will reverse it?” (Isaiah 43:10-13) “For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure,’ … (Isaiah 46:9) “Look to Me, and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.” (Isaiah 45:22) “I am the Lord, and there is no other; there is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me, that they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things … I have made the earth, and created man on it.” (Isaiah 45:5-12) “For the Lord is great and greatly to be praised; He is to be feared above all gods. For all the gods of the people are idols.” (Psalm 96:4) “This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.” (1 John 1:5) All of the above verses are very profound and powerful verses all showing us, without any other possible interpretation, that there is only one God – God the Father – and that there are no other gods anywhere that can compete or sit beside Him as His equal. All other false gods being worshiped by all of the other false religions of this earth are nothing more than false idols according to Psalm 96:4 – and they will all eventually be completely taken out from this earth when Jesus comes back to us in His second coming to set up His Millennium Kingdom from the city of Jerusalem. Also notice in the very last verse where it specifically says that there is no darkness in God – that He is all light and all goodness! 3. Jesus Christ is God and Lord Himself All of the above verses are definitely establishing that God the Father is God and Lord Himself. Now here are 18 major power verses all showing that Jesus Christ is also God and Lord Himself. Notice in the very first verse that it says that the Word – which is Jesus – was with God from the very beginning of all things and that He too is God Almighty Himself! The third verse says that a virgin will bring Jesus into our world and that His name shall be called Immanuel – which means that “God is with us.” “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.” (John 1:1) “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14) “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.” (Isaiah 7:14) “For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” (Isaiah 9:6) “… looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ …” (Titus 2:13) “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.” (2 Peter 1:1) “And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.” (1 John 5:20) “… no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:3) “Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, and that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” (Philippians 2:9-11) Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.” And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:27) “… Christ Jesus, who being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men.” (Philippians 2:6) “For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.” (Colossians 2:9) “Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.” (John 14:10) “I and My Father are one.” (John 10:30) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” (Revelation 22:13) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (Revelation 1:8) “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.” (Hebrews 13:8) Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” (John 8:58) All of the above verses are definitely telling us, without any other possible interpretation or spin that you can put on them – that Jesus Christ is God and Lord Almighty Himself and that He is truly the second Person of the triune Godhead! The last verse, where Jesus says before Abraham was, He says “I AM.” The words “I AM” are present tense – which means that Jesus has always been – He was never created or had any type of origination point like all humans and all angels have. Only God can be eternal and that one statement, all by itself, shows that Jesus Christ is eternal just like His Father is. This makes both Him and God the Father co-eternal in the Godhead itself. The two verses from Revelation 1:8 and 22:13 are stating that Jesus is the First and the Last, just like the one verse above on God the Father. They are both the First and the Last, which makes both of Them God and Lord. When the apostle Thomas says to Jesus in the above verse – “My Lord and my God” – Jesus does not correct him, but accepts the statement that he is making to Him, once again proving that Jesus Christ is God and Lord Himself. All of the above verses are major, key, power verses all showing us that Jesus Christ is truly God and Lord Himself – and as such – is truly the second Person of the triune Godhead. 4. The Holy Spirit is God and Lord Himself To complete the doctrine of the Trinity, we now have to show and prove from Scripture that the Holy Spirit is also God and Lord Himself. The following verses will do this for you. Here they are: “Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.” (2 Corinthians 3:17) But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? … You have not lied to men but to God.” (Acts 5:3-4) “Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.” (Psalm 139:7) “… how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God …” (Hebrews 9:14) “… no one know the things of God except the Spirit of God.” (1 Corinthians 2:11) The very first verse specifically tells us that the Holy Spirit is Lord Himself. The next verse then tells us that the Holy Spirit is God Himself when Peter is telling Ananias that he has lied to God when he had just lied to the Holy Spirit! These two verses, when you put them right next to one another, are literally telling us that the Holy Spirit is both God and Lord Himself – just like God the Father and Jesus Christ are both God and Lord Themselves. This now perfectly completes the Trinity – showing that we are now dealing with one God, but one God in three separate and distinct Persons – God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. The third verse above on the Holy Spirit is showing that the Holy Spirit is omnipresent, which means that He is everywhere at all times. Only God has this kind of ability. This is just one more piece of Scriptural evidence that the Holy Spirit has all of the divine attributes and abilities of God Himself and as such, has to be God and Lord Himself. The verse from Hebrews 9:14 says that the Holy Spirit is eternal, which means that He is just like God and Jesus on this issue. He has never been created and has always been and always was. Again, only God can be eternal with no creation or origination point like all humans and angels have. The last verse, where it says that no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God, is giving us another major clue that the Holy Spirit has to be God Himself in order to have this ability to be able know the things of God the Father. No human and no angel has the perfect ability to know all of the things of God. Only Jesus and the Holy Spirit have this capability within the Godhead itself. The Bible says that all humans will only “know in part” with what knowledge we can acquire from God. The above 5 verses on the Holy Spirit are definitely showing us that He is also God and Lord Himself, and that He has all of the divine attributes and abilities of God and Jesus in the Godhead itself. Conclusion If you truly believe that all of the Bible has come to us from God the Father through the Holy Spirit, then all of the above verses, especially when you group all of them together, are all showing us that our God is one God in three Persons – with God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit being the three distinct Persons of this triune Godhead – and with all three Persons of this Godhead being co-equal and co-eternal. The first set of verses about God the Father are also telling us that there are no other gods anywhere else – either in heaven above or on this earth – and that all of the other so called gods being worshiped by the other false religious systems of this world are nothing but false idols before God the Father and will eventually be completely done away with. Once again, God the Father has given us some incredible revelation about Himself, His Son Jesus Christ, and His Holy Spirit with the knowledge that is contained in these specific verses from the Bible. http://www.bible-knowledge.com/trinity-god-jesus-holy-spirit/ 
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I don't think it matters how you view the One God exactly.
God is still one. This one God is the same one God observed by all Christians, Jews and Muslims as well as other religions who have the concept of One-ness or eternal unity including pantheism, Taoism, Buddhism and Hinduism. All the major religious doctrines in the world in fact. I find nothing wrong with the Trinity conceptualization and feel it is another beautiful way to express the grandeur and holiness of God. |
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Keep it up-p.. You will finally convince yourself.
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Sun 01/15/12 08:55 AM
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This SO VERY CLEARLY says it all:
“For there are THREE who bear witness in heaven: THE FATHER, THE WORD(JESUS), and THE HOLY SPIRIT; and these THREE are ONE.” (1 John 5:7)
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Sun 01/15/12 09:20 AM
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But...just in case it is not clear for some yet:
.............Scriptural Proof for the Holy Trinity of God........... Christian doctrine is set forth by God's word as covenant, the Holy Scriptures. Scripture expresses God as three persons, yet ONE GOD. The three persons are namely, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is ONE LORD: - Deuteronomy 6:4 The Hebrew word for “God” is “ELOHIM” which is a plural. The Biblical Hebrew word for “one” in the above passage is “echad” which is a corporate oneness, not merely a numeric count. God is a plural number of persons YET ONE. The word one as "echad" is continually used in referrence to the ONE TRUE GOD throughout the Holy Scriptures. A clear example of the meaning of the Hebrew word "echad" may be also found in the celebration of the Jewish Passover. The three-pocketed matza holder used during Passover is referred to as an "echad". Consequently, it is the middle of the three matzas that is broken during the ceremony. The Holy Trinity of God and the brokenness of the Second Person of the Trinity are clearly revealed in this ancient tradition. The "echad", THE ONE TRUE GOD, is the Holy Trinity. The true Biblical doctrine of the oneness of God expresses His corporate unity. Jesus is one God with His Father. This is what Jesus meant when He said, "I and my Father are ONE." (John 10:30). Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as WE ARE ONE: - John 17:20-22 * * * It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. - John 8:17-18 If God the Father and His Son Jesus are not two persons, neither can they be two witnesses. It is clearly seen from the above words of God's Son Jesus that He and the Father are two persons. Together with the Holy Spirit the three are ONE. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE. - 1 John 5:7 And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. - Genesis 1:26 Who is the “US” here? God did not create the world with assistance. Neither does God have a pronoun problem. The “US” is the Godhead, the Holy Trinity, of whom the Father, Son and Holy Spirit all were responsible for creation. Someone does not refer to Himself as "US" unless other persons are there also, hence, first person plural. Here is another passage where you see the same speech from our Lord… And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let US go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. – Genesis 11:6-7 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for US? Then said I, Here am I; send me. – Isaiah 6:8 Isaiah was not volunteering to go for anyone besides the Lord who is mentioned in first person plural. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. – Isaiah 6:3 Notice the repitition, it was not in vain. It was to glorify the Father, Son and Spirit. The Holy Trinity is revealed in Scripture in other ways as well… Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them. – Isaiah 34:16 my = God, the Father mouth = God, the Son (The Word) spirit = God, the Holy Spirit And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my Name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. - Exodus 3:15 God of Abraham = revelation of God, the Father God of Isaac = revelation of God, the Son God of Jacob = revelation of God, the Holy Spirit The three are ONE GOD. Same is seen in Exodus 3:16, Exodus 4:5, Matthew 22:32, Mark 12:26, Luke 20:37 and other places in Holy Scripture. And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. – Matthew 3:16-17 Jesus = God, the Son saw Spirit of God = God, the Spirit and heard a voice saying “my” = God, the Father All DEITY, three persons, not one person. ONE GOD,Yet 3 Divine Persons . Let us not forget this passage… Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: - Matthew 28:19 Also... And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. – Luke 1:35 Highest = God, the Father Son of God = God, the Son (Jesus) Holy Ghost = God, the Holy Spirit ONE GOD, yet Three Divine Persons For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. - John 3:34 God = God, the Father he, him = God, the Son Spirit = God, the Holy Spirit ONE GOD, yet Three Divine Persons But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. – John 14:26 Father = God, the Father my, I = God, the Son Comforter, Holy Ghost = God, the Holy Spirit ONE GOD, yet Three Divine Persons This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. - Acts 2:32-33 God, Father = God, the Father Jesus, he = God, the Son Holy Ghost = God, the Holy Spirit ONE GOD, yet Three Divine Persons But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. - Romans 8:11 him, he, his = God, the Father Jesus, Christ = God, the Son Spirit = God, the Holy Spirit ONE GOD, yet Three Divine Persons Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. – 1 Corinthians 12:3 God = God, the Father Jesus, Lord = God, the Son Holy Ghost = God, the Holy Spirit “Lord” here shows that Jesus is master and that he is God, but not that he is Godhead. ONE GOD, yet Three Divine Persons Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. – 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 God = God, the Father Lord = God, the Son Spirit = God, the Holy Spirit ONE GOD, yet Three Divine Persons The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. – 2 Corinthians 13:14 God = God, the Father Lord Jesus Christ= God, the Son Holy Ghost = God, the Holy Spirit ONE GOD, yet Three Divine Persons And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. – Galatians 4:6 God = God, the Father Son = God, the Son Spirit = God, the Holy Spirit ONE GOD, yet Three Divine Persons Ephesians 4:5 below is a favorite quote among U.P.s which says "One Lord, one faith, one baptism". United Pentecostalists take these words completely out of context and meaning when saying that the "One Lord" is the Godhead. Let us read it in its proper context… There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. – Ephesians 4:4-6 One God and Father = God, the Father One Lord = God, the Son one Spirit = God, the Holy Spirit ONE GOD, yet Three Divine Persons Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. – 1 Peter 1:2 God the Father = God, the Father Jesus Christ = God, the Son Spirit = God, the Holy Spirit ONE GOD, yet Three Divine Persons And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. – Revelation 4:8 It is true that the word “Trinity” is not present in the Bible but the doctrine is there, just as the doctrine of “Monotheism” is in the Scriptures without the actual word being present in the text. Although the word “Trinity” was not coined until later, the doctrine of the Holy Trinity was nevertheless present in the early church and was the belief of Christians as it is has been the doctrinal faith of Christians throughout the centuries and today. http://www.dokimos.org/trinity/main.html
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This SO VERY CLEARLY says it all: “For there are THREE who bear witness in heaven: THE FATHER, THE WORD(JESUS), and THE HOLY SPIRIT; and these THREE are ONE.” (1 John 5:7)
8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one And if you read further to the next verse, you can see The Father, The Word, and the Holy Spirit being one symbolically. They are one for they have the same will, the same desire, the same love, the same actions for us. We can see this is ment symbolically for how can water or blood bear witness? How can they agree? |
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The Doctrine of the Trinity one of the main, fundamental, key doctrines of the Christian faith is the belief in the Trinity. Simply put, the doctrine of the Trinity states that there is: One God in three Persons It is not three Gods in one God – it is one God in three Persons. The Bible specifically states over and over again that there is only one God. This is why you technically cannot say that there are three Gods in one God. However, as you will see in the Scripture verses I will list below, all three Persons of the Godhead are God and Lord Themselves. God the Father is the first Person of the Trinity, His Son Jesus Christ is the second Person of the Trinity, and the Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Trinity. So if all Three of Them are really God and Lord Themselves – then why doesn’t God the Father tell us in His Word that we are dealing with three Gods? Why does He keep saying that there is only one God – when in actuality both Himself, His Son Jesus, and His Holy Spirit are all God and Lord Themselves? There is no question that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three separate complete and individual Persons with their own individual, unique identities. So why does God the Father keep stating that there is only one God in Scripture? This is one of the mysteries of the Trinity that many people have a hard time with. Here is what I believe may be a possible answer to this question. From Scripture, we know that there are only three classes of beings. God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one class in that the Three of Them are all God and Lord Themselves. As such, all Three of Them are absolutely perfect in Their actual natures and personalities. As you will see in one of the Scripture verses I will list below, the Bible tells us that there is no darkness in God. In other words, He has no dark side, no flesh. This means that God is totally incapable of doing anything evil or bad. He is totally and completely perfectly good in His actual nature and personality. However, the same thing cannot be said of the other two classes of beings that God has created. The first class of beings that God has created are the angels. The fact that Satan and one third of the angels managed to rebel against God and get thrown out of heaven – all show that angels have the capacity and the ability to malfunction to the dark side. If they did not have this ability and capacity, then Satan and one third of the angels would have never rebelled against God the Father in the first place. This one fact alone tells us that angels are not perfect like God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are. They thus cannot be considered gods in any way, shape, or form. The second class of beings that God has created is the human race. The Bible specifically states that all men and all women have sinned and have fallen way short of the glory of God. This is why Jesus had to come down to die for all of our sins. The Bible says that all men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and makes no exceptions. In other words – all humans are imperfect just like all of the angels are. This now leads us to one simple conclusion. Since all humans and all angels are imperfect – this now means that no angels and no humans can ever be considered to be gods themselves – no matter how much Satan would still like to believe that, and no matter how many New Age gurus would like to try and tell you otherwise with their false teachings that we are all little gods ourselves. Now here is why I believe that God the Father has the Trinity set up under the statement of “One God in three Persons.” Since God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all God and Lord Themselves – this means that all Three of Them are totally perfect in Their actual personalities. And if They are totally perfect in Their actual personalities – then this now means They are totally capable of being perfectly one with one another. As you will see in several of the Scripture verses below – Jesus keeps repeating the statement that He and His Father “are one.” In other words, They are perfectly one with one another, They are in perfect harmony with one another, They are in perfect agreement with one another. Since the Two of Them are both God and Lord Themselves – this now means this divine union between the Two of them is a perfect divine union. This perfect divine union of oneness between the Two of Them is so perfect, that God the Father can now say that there is only one God – not 3 separate Gods. The same thing goes for the Holy Spirit. As you will see in a Scripture verse I will list below, this verse also says that the Holy Spirit is perfectly “one” with both God and Jesus. And since the Bible specifically tells us that the Holy Spirit is God and Lord Himself – then this now means His personal divine union with both God and Jesus is a perfect divine union. As such, He too can be included as being part of the Godhead – where God the Father can now state that there is only one God, but one God in three, separate, perfect Persons within the actual Godhead itself. Since all angels and all humans are imperfect, this means that we are not capable of establishing any kind of perfect, divine, God-union with either God Himself or with any other human. Only God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit have the ability to establish a perfect divine union with either Themselves, with one of us, or one of Their angels. I believe this “perfect divine oneness,” this “perfect divine union” between God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is so “God-perfect” – that God the Father can now state that there is only one true God – but one God in three separate, unique, and individual Persons. 1. One God in Three Persons There is one big whopper mammoth verse that you can literally base the entire doctrine of the Trinity on. Here it is: “For there are three who bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.” (1 John 5:7) As you will see in a verse I will list below, the Word is Jesus. This verse is now telling us that God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are “one.” This verse is telling us that we are specifically dealing with a God Trinity involving three separate Persons – but with all Three of these Persons being “perfectly one” with one another! In the 3 captions I will list below, I will give you some of the main verses from Scripture that will specifically tell us that God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are all God and Lord Themselves. And if They are all God and Lord Themselves, and above verse is telling us that They are perfectly one with one another – then the Bible has just given us perfect proof that we are now dealing with a Holy Divine Trinity of one God in three Persons. It’s like putting together a jigsaw puzzle. Once you have all of the puzzle pieces put together and put right next to one another – it then becomes quite easy to see what God is trying to tell us with some of this deeper revelation! I believe the above verse is one of the major foundational verses in which to base the entire doctrine of the Trinity on since it is specifically telling us that all three Persons of the Godhead are “perfectly one” with one another. 2. God the Father is God and Lord Himself In order to complete the above verse, we now have to show that both God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are all God and Lord Themselves. In this caption, I will give you 10 major power verses all showing that not only is God the Father God and Lord Himself – but that there are no other gods in the entire scheme of things than can even begin to sit next to Him. The actual wording in some of these verses are very intense in the way they are stating that there is only one God and that there are no other gods anywhere else that can compete with Him for this title. Here are 10 extremely strong verses all showing us that God the Father is God and Lord Himself, and that there are no other beings, either human or angelic, that can even begin to compete with Him for this title. “… yet for us there is only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.” (1 Corinthians 8:6) “But the Lord is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King … thus you shall say to them: “The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under these heavens.” He has made the earth by His power, He has established the world by His wisdom, and has stretched out the heavens at His discretion … For He is the maker of all things.” (Jeremiah 10:10-16) “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, and his redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God … Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.’ ” (Isaiah 44: 6,8) “To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord Himself is God; there is none other besides Him … that the Lord Himself is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.” (Deuteronomy 4:35-39) “Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no savior … Indeed before the day was, I am He; and there is no one who can deliver out of My hand; I work, and who will reverse it?” (Isaiah 43:10-13) “For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure,’ … (Isaiah 46:9) “Look to Me, and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.” (Isaiah 45:22) “I am the Lord, and there is no other; there is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me, that they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things … I have made the earth, and created man on it.” (Isaiah 45:5-12) “For the Lord is great and greatly to be praised; He is to be feared above all gods. For all the gods of the people are idols.” (Psalm 96:4) “This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.” (1 John 1:5) All of the above verses are very profound and powerful verses all showing us, without any other possible interpretation, that there is only one God – God the Father – and that there are no other gods anywhere that can compete or sit beside Him as His equal. All other false gods being worshiped by all of the other false religions of this earth are nothing more than false idols according to Psalm 96:4 – and they will all eventually be completely taken out from this earth when Jesus comes back to us in His second coming to set up His Millennium Kingdom from the city of Jerusalem. Also notice in the very last verse where it specifically says that there is no darkness in God – that He is all light and all goodness! 3. Jesus Christ is God and Lord Himself All of the above verses are definitely establishing that God the Father is God and Lord Himself. Now here are 18 major power verses all showing that Jesus Christ is also God and Lord Himself. Notice in the very first verse that it says that the Word – which is Jesus – was with God from the very beginning of all things and that He too is God Almighty Himself! The third verse says that a virgin will bring Jesus into our world and that His name shall be called Immanuel – which means that “God is with us.” “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.” (John 1:1) “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14) “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.” (Isaiah 7:14) “For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” (Isaiah 9:6) “… looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ …” (Titus 2:13) “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.” (2 Peter 1:1) “And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.” (1 John 5:20) “… no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:3) “Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, and that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” (Philippians 2:9-11) Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.” And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:27) “… Christ Jesus, who being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men.” (Philippians 2:6) “For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.” (Colossians 2:9) “Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.” (John 14:10) “I and My Father are one.” (John 10:30) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” (Revelation 22:13) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (Revelation 1:8) “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.” (Hebrews 13:8) Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” (John 8:58) All of the above verses are definitely telling us, without any other possible interpretation or spin that you can put on them – that Jesus Christ is God and Lord Almighty Himself and that He is truly the second Person of the triune Godhead! The last verse, where Jesus says before Abraham was, He says “I AM.” The words “I AM” are present tense – which means that Jesus has always been – He was never created or had any type of origination point like all humans and all angels have. Only God can be eternal and that one statement, all by itself, shows that Jesus Christ is eternal just like His Father is. This makes both Him and God the Father co-eternal in the Godhead itself. The two verses from Revelation 1:8 and 22:13 are stating that Jesus is the First and the Last, just like the one verse above on God the Father. They are both the First and the Last, which makes both of Them God and Lord. When the apostle Thomas says to Jesus in the above verse – “My Lord and my God” – Jesus does not correct him, but accepts the statement that he is making to Him, once again proving that Jesus Christ is God and Lord Himself. All of the above verses are major, key, power verses all showing us that Jesus Christ is truly God and Lord Himself – and as such – is truly the second Person of the triune Godhead. 4. The Holy Spirit is God and Lord Himself To complete the doctrine of the Trinity, we now have to show and prove from Scripture that the Holy Spirit is also God and Lord Himself. The following verses will do this for you. Here they are: “Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.” (2 Corinthians 3:17) But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? … You have not lied to men but to God.” (Acts 5:3-4) “Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.” (Psalm 139:7) “… how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God …” (Hebrews 9:14) “… no one know the things of God except the Spirit of God.” (1 Corinthians 2:11) The very first verse specifically tells us that the Holy Spirit is Lord Himself. The next verse then tells us that the Holy Spirit is God Himself when Peter is telling Ananias that he has lied to God when he had just lied to the Holy Spirit! These two verses, when you put them right next to one another, are literally telling us that the Holy Spirit is both God and Lord Himself – just like God the Father and Jesus Christ are both God and Lord Themselves. This now perfectly completes the Trinity – showing that we are now dealing with one God, but one God in three separate and distinct Persons – God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. The third verse above on the Holy Spirit is showing that the Holy Spirit is omnipresent, which means that He is everywhere at all times. Only God has this kind of ability. This is just one more piece of Scriptural evidence that the Holy Spirit has all of the divine attributes and abilities of God Himself and as such, has to be God and Lord Himself. The verse from Hebrews 9:14 says that the Holy Spirit is eternal, which means that He is just like God and Jesus on this issue. He has never been created and has always been and always was. Again, only God can be eternal with no creation or origination point like all humans and angels have. The last verse, where it says that no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God, is giving us another major clue that the Holy Spirit has to be God Himself in order to have this ability to be able know the things of God the Father. No human and no angel has the perfect ability to know all of the things of God. Only Jesus and the Holy Spirit have this capability within the Godhead itself. The Bible says that all humans will only “know in part” with what knowledge we can acquire from God. The above 5 verses on the Holy Spirit are definitely showing us that He is also God and Lord Himself, and that He has all of the divine attributes and abilities of God and Jesus in the Godhead itself. Conclusion If you truly believe that all of the Bible has come to us from God the Father through the Holy Spirit, then all of the above verses, especially when you group all of them together, are all showing us that our God is one God in three Persons – with God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit being the three distinct Persons of this triune Godhead – and with all three Persons of this Godhead being co-equal and co-eternal. The first set of verses about God the Father are also telling us that there are no other gods anywhere else – either in heaven above or on this earth – and that all of the other so called gods being worshiped by the other false religious systems of this world are nothing but false idols before God the Father and will eventually be completely done away with. Once again, God the Father has given us some incredible revelation about Himself, His Son Jesus Christ, and His Holy Spirit with the knowledge that is contained in these specific verses from the Bible. http://www.bible-knowledge.com/trinity-god-jesus-holy-spirit/
Since the Two of Them are both God and Lord Themselves – this now means this divine union between the Two of them is a perfect divine union. This perfect divine union of oneness between the Two of Them is so perfect, that God the Father can now say that there is only one God – not 3 separate Gods. Incorrect, both are not God and Lord. They are both God, yes. But not both are Lord. Please give just one scripture where anyone other then just Jesus himself is referred to as "LORD" |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Sun 01/15/12 02:00 PM
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WHEN a person is SAVED and BORN AGAIN, the Holy Spirit
INDWELLING that believer Now, REVEALS and ILLUMINATES the TRUTH of GOD'S WORD to that believer. This is HOW born again christians KNOW and RECOGNIZE the TRUTH of GOD's WORD....and are also able to recognize the voice of a stranger.....and therefore, will not follow that stranger's voice. One of the FUNDAMENTAL TRUTHS of God's Word clearly REVEALED by the HOLY SPIRIT to the believer, is that God the Father ,God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are 3 persons in One GOD ( ONE ENTITY). God thru the Power of The Holy Spirit ,makes His Word VERY CLEAR to a born again believer now. This is WHY , that ONLY THRU THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT , IS the TRUTH of GOD'S WORD ABLE to BE ILLUMINATED to US . This is WHY NO MAN is able to Show you the TRUTH OF GOD'S WORD...only GOD CAN REVEAL that TRUTH of HIS WORD to You, thru the Power of The Holy Spirit. This is WHY God must first DRAW us and CONVICT us thru the Power of His Holy Spirit,in order to SAVE us, that any of us is EVER able to Know and Understand God's Truth in the first place. We can't come to Know and Understand God and The Truth of His Word on our own ...ever......it is ALL God's doing. Not ours. This is also WHY none of us who are Saved, can ever Boast.
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Incorrect, both are not God and Lord. They are both God, yes. But not both are Lord. Please give just one scripture where anyone other then just Jesus himself is referred to as "LORD" Isaiah 26:4 Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength: |
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Very Good ,Funches.
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doesn't matter, because next he will try to claim that Jesus is Jehovah
he has to, because if not, then his claim that Jesus is the lord God being referred to in Genesis 2:4 will become invalid |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Sun 01/15/12 03:34 PM
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The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were involved in
creation: the Father (Genesis 1:1); the Son (John 1:3, 10; Colossians 1:16); and the Spirit (Genesis 1:2, Psalm 104:30). . The FATHER: Genesis 1:1 1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The SON: John 1:3 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:10 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. Colossians 1:16 16 For BY him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created THROUGH him and for him. (btw,note the words BY and THROUGH.... meaning.....all things were created BY the Father THROUGH the Son ( Word)... The HOLY SPIRIT : Genesis 1:2 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Psalm 104:30 30 When you send forth your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the ground. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were involved in Creation. AND BECAUSE The Father,Son , and Holy Spirit are ONE GOD , The Father , Son, and Holy Spirit , are ALWAYS Involved in ALL that GOD has done , and does ,and will do.
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The SON: John 1:3 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:10 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. that passage could also make reference to Jeremiah being "The Word" ... Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations this is why everything not yet created is The Word... even you...you Jesus Jeremiah and everything and everyone cease being the word once they were created and became seperated from God |
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Its the three primary colors. Red, Yellow and Blue.
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Incorrect, both are not God and Lord. They are both God, yes. But not both are Lord. Please give just one scripture where anyone other then just Jesus himself is referred to as "LORD" Isaiah 26:4 Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength: "Jehovah" translated is "lord". Jehovah nissi is used once in Exodus 17:15 Means - the lord my banner, the lord my miracle Jehovah-Raah is used on psalms 23 Means - the lord my shepard. Jehovah-Rapha Exodus 15:26 Means - The lord that heals Jehovah Shammah ezekial 48:35 Means - The lord is there There's more examples if needed. |
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Incorrect, both are not God and Lord. They are both God, yes. But not both are Lord. Please give just one scripture where anyone other then just Jesus himself is referred to as "LORD" Isaiah 26:4 Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength: "Jehovah" translated is "lord". Jehovah nissi is used once in Exodus 17:15 Means - the lord my banner, the lord my miracle Jehovah-Raah is used on psalms 23 Means - the lord my shepard. Jehovah-Rapha Exodus 15:26 Means - The lord that heals Jehovah Shammah ezekial 48:35 Means - The lord is there There's more examples if needed. very important here to keep in mind names had meaning eg., Jehovah nissi, would mean he's the lord my miracle, ect. |
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Funches, notice the verse right BEFORE Jeremiah 1:5 : Jeremiah 1:4 Now the WORD OF THE LORD came to me SAYING, Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations ...
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Funches, notice the verse right BEFORE Jeremiah 1:5 : Jeremiah 1:4 Now the WORD OF THE LORD came to me SAYING, Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations ...
Because Jesus is our God, he is the one whom created us. |
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Incorrect, both are not God and Lord. They are both God, yes. But not both are Lord. Please give just one scripture where anyone other then just Jesus himself is referred to as "LORD" Isaiah 26:4 Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength: "Jehovah" translated is "lord". Jehovah nissi is used once in Exodus 17:15 Means - the lord my banner, the lord my miracle Jehovah-Raah is used on psalms 23 Means - the lord my shepard. Jehovah-Rapha Exodus 15:26 Means - The lord that heals Jehovah Shammah ezekial 48:35 Means - The lord is there There's more examples if needed. very important here to keep in mind names had meaning eg., Jehovah nissi, would mean he's the lord my miracle, ect. Jehovah Mekoddishkem Exodus 31:13. Means - The Lord Who Sanctifies You, The Lord Who Makes Holy |
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Incorrect, both are not God and Lord. They are both God, yes. But not both are Lord. Please give just one scripture where anyone other then just Jesus himself is referred to as "LORD" Isaiah 26:4 Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength: "Jehovah" translated is "lord". Jehovah nissi is used once in Exodus 17:15 Means - the lord my banner, the lord my miracle Jehovah-Raah is used on psalms 23 Means - the lord my shepard. Jehovah-Rapha Exodus 15:26 Means - The lord that heals Jehovah Shammah ezekial 48:35 Means - The lord is there There's more examples if needed. very important here to keep in mind names had meaning eg., Jehovah nissi, would mean he's the lord my miracle, ect. except the passage below indicate that there are two entities being referred to as Lord Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he said himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit on my right hand, the above was an example of how The Father was excerting how he was Lord over Jesus by granting him to sit on his right hand side this is why the lord God in 2:24 is The Father not Jesus ..... |
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