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Topic: Is Waterboarding Torture?
Leigh2154 Joined Sun 10/02/11 Posts: 16479	Tue 11/15/11 04:33 AM
I'm thinking the words terrorist and terrorism are just a little too over used these days...Since when did a bank robber become a terrorist, a murderer become a terrorist, a rapist become a terrorist, a child abuser become a terrorist, a sexually harassed person is now the victim of terrorism, kids fighting with other kids in the park are terrorist, domestic violence is now terrorism...Give me a break, maybe if we get back to some straight talk, forget the "spin", we will all make a little more sense...

Optomistic69 Joined Mon 10/10/11 Posts: 5173	Tue 11/15/11 05:11 AM
Did you not have a happy childhood Moe oh wow, great comeback... did someone make you underwear on your head too?... Should you have asked the same question of me I would have replied...Yes I had a Happy Childhood. Just wondering about people that have no problem with Beating Children (Last Century) Terrorizing Human Beings (Waterboarding) Bombing Innocent Men Women and Children (War Mongers) Letting People Starve while Some have plenty and waste I could go on and on ...and I will at another time. We haven't gone away you now.

InvictusV Joined Sun 11/23/08 Posts: 5282	Tue 11/15/11 05:26 AM
I love how this has all evolved. No to waterboarding Khalid Sheik Mohammed.. But OK to flying a drone into any random country and dropping a HellFire missile on someones head.. It is a very interesting look into what is considered acceptable and what is not.

Leigh2154 Joined Sun 10/02/11 Posts: 16479	Tue 11/15/11 05:30 AM
I love how this has all evolved. No to waterboarding Khalid Sheik Mohammed.. But OK to flying a drone into any random country and dropping a HellFire missile on someones head.. It is a very interesting look into what is considered acceptable and what is not. You got it right....

Optomistic69 Joined Mon 10/10/11 Posts: 5173	Tue 11/15/11 05:46 AM Edited by Optomistic69 on Tue 11/15/11 05:47 AM
I love how this has all evolved. No to waterboarding Khalid Sheik Mohammed.. But OK to flying a drone into any random country and dropping a HellFire missile on someones head.. It is a very interesting look into what is considered acceptable and what is not. Are you saying no to waterboarding and no to the use of drones?? Just Curious

jrbogie Joined Sat 03/01/08 Posts: 2490	Tue 11/15/11 06:06 AM
seem he's aasking if drone attacks are acceptable, why isn't waterboarding.

Optomistic69 Joined Mon 10/10/11 Posts: 5173	Tue 11/15/11 06:11 AM
I love how this has all evolved. No to waterboarding Khalid Sheik Mohammed.. But OK to flying a drone into any random country and dropping a HellFire missile on someones head.. It is a very interesting look into what is considered acceptable and what is not. Are you saying no to waterboarding and no to the use of drones?? Just Curious I say No to Waterboarding and No to UAV'S

InvictusV Joined Sun 11/23/08 Posts: 5282	Tue 11/15/11 06:16 AM
I love how this has all evolved. No to waterboarding Khalid Sheik Mohammed.. But OK to flying a drone into any random country and dropping a HellFire missile on someones head.. It is a very interesting look into what is considered acceptable and what is not. Are you saying no to waterboarding and no to the use of drones?? Just Curious I am saying that there is no rhyme or reason as to what is acceptable and what is not. All of this discussion is based on morality and international law. I think that there is no coherence in standards. Assassination by drone is far worse in my opinion than waterboarding. I am specifically referring to Awlaki.. There is no debating what he was doing, but did that rise above and beyond what KSM did? Absolutely NOT. So when I see people bitching about waterboarding KSM and defending the drone strike in Yemen I have no choice but to look at this from a more political motivation than actually being concerned for the rule of law.

Ladylid2012 Joined Sun 07/05/09 Posts: 42269	Tue 11/15/11 06:51 AM
Water boarding is considered torture under International Law...Obama banned it in in the US in 2009...It really didn't get much press here in the states until 2004 when it was made public that it was allegedly used in 02 and 03 by the Bush administration as a means of interrogating three suspected a-Qaeda terrorists.....In 02, The US Legal Counsel did write a memorandum which concluded water boarding was NOT torture and could be used for interrogation purposes...Does that make it right? Probably not...I am hard put to choose a side on this one because after 9/11, the game changed.....Those like Herman Cain, Governor Perry, and Michele Bachman who state unequivocally they would reinstate it if they were elected may not be in the majority, but at least they are being up front about it and I am sure they have access to more facts than I do or ever will have...In all honesty, if I was ever in a position where I had to make a choice and I was convinced American lives were at stake and I could save those lives, I would use any means I could to get the information I needed to protect innocent citizens.....PLEASE DON'T WATER BOARD ME!!! I think that is not only wrong, it is pure evil. No kind of torture is acceptable for any reason at any time. Once you succumb to that kind of fear and you use your fear to torture suspects and deprive them of their rights, then you have gone over to the dark side. Fear has won. Terrorism wins. And if you are a Christian, shame on you, Satan has your soul. Don't torture people. Don't hit your children. What is wrong with you people? what has christianity to do with war and discipline? I think Jeannie is very clear here...,. violence isn't Christlike!!~!

Sojourning_Soul Joined Fri 02/13/09 Posts: 10767	Tue 11/15/11 06:51 AM Edited by Sojourning_Soul on Tue 11/15/11 06:52 AM
I'm thinking the words terrorist and terrorism are just a little too over used these days...Since when did a bank robber become a terrorist, a murderer become a terrorist, a rapist become a terrorist, a child abuser become a terrorist, a sexually harassed person is now the victim of terrorism, kids fighting with other kids in the park are terrorist, domestic violence is now terrorism...Give me a break, maybe if we get back to some straight talk, forget the "spin", we will all make a little more sense... Since the Patriot Act gave law enforcement the tool of warrantless searches, wire tapping, and arrest without probable cause.

Conrad_73 Joined Sat 09/29/07 Posts: 22488	Tue 11/15/11 06:59 AM
I'm thinking the words terrorist and terrorism are just a little too over used these days...Since when did a bank robber become a terrorist, a murderer become a terrorist, a rapist become a terrorist, a child abuser become a terrorist, a sexually harassed person is now the victim of terrorism, kids fighting with other kids in the park are terrorist, domestic violence is now terrorism...Give me a break, maybe if we get back to some straight talk, forget the "spin", we will all make a little more sense... Since the Patriot Act gave law enforcement the tool of warrantless searches, wire tapping, and arrest without probable cause. wasn't Obama going to repeal that thing?

Leigh2154 Joined Sun 10/02/11 Posts: 16479	Tue 11/15/11 07:10 AM
I'm thinking the words terrorist and terrorism are just a little too over used these days...Since when did a bank robber become a terrorist, a murderer become a terrorist, a rapist become a terrorist, a child abuser become a terrorist, a sexually harassed person is now the victim of terrorism, kids fighting with other kids in the park are terrorist, domestic violence is now terrorism...Give me a break, maybe if we get back to some straight talk, forget the "spin", we will all make a little more sense... Since the Patriot Act gave law enforcement the tool of warrantless searches, wire tapping, and arrest without probable cause. wasn't Obama going to repeal that thing? Well right now he is too busy stomping for votes...

Conrad_73 Joined Sat 09/29/07 Posts: 22488	Tue 11/15/11 07:14 AM
I'm thinking the words terrorist and terrorism are just a little too over used these days...Since when did a bank robber become a terrorist, a murderer become a terrorist, a rapist become a terrorist, a child abuser become a terrorist, a sexually harassed person is now the victim of terrorism, kids fighting with other kids in the park are terrorist, domestic violence is now terrorism...Give me a break, maybe if we get back to some straight talk, forget the "spin", we will all make a little more sense... Since the Patriot Act gave law enforcement the tool of warrantless searches, wire tapping, and arrest without probable cause. wasn't Obama going to repeal that thing? Well right now he is too busy stomping for votes... He did a Kerry on it anyway! Was against it before he was for it and voted in favor of it! Serves him just as well or better than it did the previous Administration!

InvictusV Joined Sun 11/23/08 Posts: 5282	Tue 11/15/11 07:37 AM
I'm thinking the words terrorist and terrorism are just a little too over used these days...Since when did a bank robber become a terrorist, a murderer become a terrorist, a rapist become a terrorist, a child abuser become a terrorist, a sexually harassed person is now the victim of terrorism, kids fighting with other kids in the park are terrorist, domestic violence is now terrorism...Give me a break, maybe if we get back to some straight talk, forget the "spin", we will all make a little more sense... Since the Patriot Act gave law enforcement the tool of warrantless searches, wire tapping, and arrest without probable cause. wasn't Obama going to repeal that thing? Well right now he is too busy stomping for votes... He did a Kerry on it anyway! Was against it before he was for it and voted in favor of it! Serves him just as well or better than it did the previous Administration! Make no mistake, leftists in government love the Patriot Act. It gives their domestic security apparatus carte blanche in regards to who they perceive to be the real enemy of their collectivist state.

Leigh2154 Joined Sun 10/02/11 Posts: 16479	Tue 11/15/11 07:59 AM
I'm thinking the words terrorist and terrorism are just a little too over used these days...Since when did a bank robber become a terrorist, a murderer become a terrorist, a rapist become a terrorist, a child abuser become a terrorist, a sexually harassed person is now the victim of terrorism, kids fighting with other kids in the park are terrorist, domestic violence is now terrorism...Give me a break, maybe if we get back to some straight talk, forget the "spin", we will all make a little more sense... Since the Patriot Act gave law enforcement the tool of warrantless searches, wire tapping, and arrest without probable cause. wasn't Obama going to repeal that thing? Well right now he is too busy stomping for votes... He did a Kerry on it anyway! Was against it before he was for it and voted in favor of it! Serves him just as well or better than it did the previous Administration! Did that a few times Con....a fair weather President if ever there was one!

Leigh2154 Joined Sun 10/02/11 Posts: 16479	Tue 11/15/11 08:00 AM
Water boarding is considered torture under International Law...Obama banned it in in the US in 2009...It really didn't get much press here in the states until 2004 when it was made public that it was allegedly used in 02 and 03 by the Bush administration as a means of interrogating three suspected a-Qaeda terrorists.....In 02, The US Legal Counsel did write a memorandum which concluded water boarding was NOT torture and could be used for interrogation purposes...Does that make it right? Probably not...I am hard put to choose a side on this one because after 9/11, the game changed.....Those like Herman Cain, Governor Perry, and Michele Bachman who state unequivocally they would reinstate it if they were elected may not be in the majority, but at least they are being up front about it and I am sure they have access to more facts than I do or ever will have...In all honesty, if I was ever in a position where I had to make a choice and I was convinced American lives were at stake and I could save those lives, I would use any means I could to get the information I needed to protect innocent citizens.....PLEASE DON'T WATER BOARD ME!!! I think that is not only wrong, it is pure evil. No kind of torture is acceptable for any reason at any time. Once you succumb to that kind of fear and you use your fear to torture suspects and deprive them of their rights, then you have gone over to the dark side. Fear has won. Terrorism wins. And if you are a Christian, shame on you, Satan has your soul. Don't torture people. Don't hit your children. What is wrong with you people? what has christianity to do with war and discipline? I think Jeannie is very clear here...,. violence isn't Christlike!!~! Everything is relative....Everything....

Conrad_73 Joined Sat 09/29/07 Posts: 22488	Tue 11/15/11 08:26 AM
I'm thinking the words terrorist and terrorism are just a little too over used these days...Since when did a bank robber become a terrorist, a murderer become a terrorist, a rapist become a terrorist, a child abuser become a terrorist, a sexually harassed person is now the victim of terrorism, kids fighting with other kids in the park are terrorist, domestic violence is now terrorism...Give me a break, maybe if we get back to some straight talk, forget the "spin", we will all make a little more sense... Since the Patriot Act gave law enforcement the tool of warrantless searches, wire tapping, and arrest without probable cause. wasn't Obama going to repeal that thing? Well right now he is too busy stomping for votes... He did a Kerry on it anyway! Was against it before he was for it and voted in favor of it! Serves him just as well or better than it did the previous Administration! Make no mistake, leftists in government love the Patriot Act. It gives their domestic security apparatus carte blanche in regards to who they perceive to be the real enemy of their collectivist state. Got that right! Just as useful as the Czar's Secret Police was to the new Red Rulers of Russia!

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Tue 11/15/11 01:03 PM Edited by Jeanniebean on Tue 11/15/11 01:10 PM
EthanMNfarmkid: Jeanniebean said: "Because if you lie to save a life that is simply the right and moral thing to do, especially if you believe or know that telling the truth would result in harm coming to a person." EthanMNfarmkid said: Right. So, you're making an exception. You are saying that lying, something generally accepted to be wrong, is not wrong, and okay if it's done to save someone. This is called justification. It's clear that you believe wrong things can be justified. Yet torture, another "wrong thing" cannot be justified, even IF it saves the lives of innocent people? That's a complete incongruity in your moral code that you haven't explained. I am saying that lying is neither right or wrong. I do not accept your premise that lying is always to be considered "wrong." That is your personal opinion. Therefore I am not making an exception to anything. I am not "justifying" anything. Lying to save a life is right in my book. Torture is always wrong in my book. I don't live by your book. Jeanniebean said: "I'm really surprised you can't figure that out." EthanMNfarmkid said: Do I sense slight condescension? Anyways,you haven't really explained. You just stated that lying is okay if done to save another. You didn't explain how lying to save someone makes lying not wrong anymore. Does a right justify a wrong? You're saying it does. Jeanniebean: I did not agree with your premise that lying is wrong in the first place. Lying is not wrong unless its used to intentionally do harm to another person. Bearing false witness is accusing someone of a crime they did not commit. That could get them jailed or in prison. If a girl lies and tells the police that you raped her, that is wrong. Jeanniebean said: "It's about respect for life and humanity. Its about compassion for your fellow human being. It's NOT about some rules, regulations, or even laws. Its about doing the right thing." EthanMNfarmkid said: Yes, that's what this entire debate is about. I don't really know what you're trying to take a stab at here... A: Really? or are you just playing dumb? Jeanniebean said: "For one, yes, they have tortured innocents who where merely suspects. They don't even bother to apologize. Secondly, that they actually have the power to do so without over site should be great cause for alarm. Unlimited power always leads to abuse of power." Like..who? And when I ask who, I ask for people that have been waterboarded and proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that were innocent. Exonerated. Can you show me a case where this has happened? Yes but do your own research. And by the way, people don't have to be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are innocent. They are innocent until they are proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are guilty. This is America, not Germany. Jeanniebean said: "I am responsible only for my own actions and my own moral fiber. I would never become a high or even low ranking CIA operative. I consider them to be as bad as Hitler's secret service and Mossad assassins." Just because you're responsible for your own moral fiber, doesn't necessarily mean that frees you of any obligation to others. You are telling me that if you say, refused to waterboard someone, and this refusal lead to the eventual deaths of innocent people, then oh well? They died, not my fualt? Shrug it off, go eat dinner peacefully the next day? Yep. Although I would spend my energy doing everything possible to enforce the law without resorting to using torture. If I resort to using torture on a suspect (who may be innocent) then I am no better than the terrorists, and I have joined the dark side. When you see someone bullied, do you tell yourself "I'm responsible for my own moral fiber" and walk on by? If everyone told themselves they were responsible for their own moral fiber as an excuse not to intervene on the behalves of other people, the world would be a much darker place than it already is. No. This is not the same thing, nor is it a good comparison to using the policy of torture. If I personally saw someone being bullied I would do whatever I felt was the right thing to do. It could be calling the police, or intervening, or reporting it.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Tue 11/15/11 01:12 PM
Water boarding is considered torture under International Law...Obama banned it in in the US in 2009...It really didn't get much press here in the states until 2004 when it was made public that it was allegedly used in 02 and 03 by the Bush administration as a means of interrogating three suspected a-Qaeda terrorists.....In 02, The US Legal Counsel did write a memorandum which concluded water boarding was NOT torture and could be used for interrogation purposes...Does that make it right? Probably not...I am hard put to choose a side on this one because after 9/11, the game changed.....Those like Herman Cain, Governor Perry, and Michele Bachman who state unequivocally they would reinstate it if they were elected may not be in the majority, but at least they are being up front about it and I am sure they have access to more facts than I do or ever will have...In all honesty, if I was ever in a position where I had to make a choice and I was convinced American lives were at stake and I could save those lives, I would use any means I could to get the information I needed to protect innocent citizens.....PLEASE DON'T WATER BOARD ME!!! I think that is not only wrong, it is pure evil. No kind of torture is acceptable for any reason at any time. Once you succumb to that kind of fear and you use your fear to torture suspects and deprive them of their rights, then you have gone over to the dark side. Fear has won. Terrorism wins. And if you are a Christian, shame on you, Satan has your soul. Don't torture people. Don't hit your children. What is wrong with you people? what has christianity to do with war and discipline? I think Jeannie is very clear here...,. violence isn't Christlike!!~! neither is being a parent, if we are referring strictly to what Christ did or did not do that doesnt make it UN christian though

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Tue 11/15/11 01:14 PM
I'm thinking the words terrorist and terrorism are just a little too over used these days...Since when did a bank robber become a terrorist, a murderer become a terrorist, a rapist become a terrorist, a child abuser become a terrorist, a sexually harassed person is now the victim of terrorism, kids fighting with other kids in the park are terrorist, domestic violence is now terrorism...Give me a break, maybe if we get back to some straight talk, forget the "spin", we will all make a little more sense... Since the Patriot Act gave law enforcement the tool of warrantless searches, wire tapping, and arrest without probable cause. wasn't Obama going to repeal that thing? does he have the authority by himself?