Absolutely amazing that some think television program and movie plots can somehow be used in real life situations. The reality of the evil in this world is far beyond the fantasy of television. Get real!

Pouring water on a towel placed over the face of an enemy combatant is in no way, shape or form torture, it has proven to produce no lasting physical effect while allowing the interrogators to gather information that saved many American and others lives. And frankly, I couldn't give a rats *** for a captured terrorist; if he is withholding intelligence information that can save innocent peoples lives, pour water on his face till he gives it up.

Torture is what the terrorists did and continue to do to thousands of innocent people, blowing limbs off of their bodies with IED's. Or how about slowly sawing innocent peoples heads off with a dull knife while being video-taped so the terrorists can televise their cowardly acts to the world. THAT"S TORTURE!!

And for all you bleeding hearts, I HAVE laid on the floor with a towel over my face and had my unbelieving friends pour water on my face, what a joke! Hold your fricken breath! I held my breath for over two minutes and then exhaled hard to suck in more air so I could hold my breath longer. It's no big deal! So many people simply have no clue and are manipulated by the bleeding hearts of our world.

I'll tell you one thing, there are many evil people in this world that would like nothing more than to kill every one of us Americans. If we can save ourselves by pouring a little water on their faces, big friggen deal, DO IT!!!

two seperate questions here

1. Shall we tell our government representatives, who represent US that it is okay with us for them to make it a standard policy to use water-boarding (torture) on suspects?


I dont know what 'standard policy' is. I would tell them that in SOME Extreme situations, it is okay to use water boarding.


2. Are you sanctioning our government to torture?


If waterboarding is being defined here as a form of torture, than I guess I am.

I do not sanction ALL types of torture though, specifically not rape or sodomy or any that cause permanent physical damage, or permanent damage to the basic functions of the body.


Torture is the infliction of severe pain in order to force someone to do or say something.

Granted their is some torture that is a lot worse than other torture and some people have immersed themselves in the horror of the dark side further than others.

I said I KNOW this is done, I have no delusions about it.

But I will NOT give my personal permission or blessing to my own government representatives to do this as an accepted form of interrogation.

That is one step into the dark side.

That's where I draw the line. I'm sure every individual will find a place where they will draw their line. That is up to their own conscience and karma.

SoMycaim, you can call me a bleeding heart or any names you want. But don't imagine in your wildest dreams that name calling of any kind bothers me in the slightest.

I think its childish, so I will now stick out my tongue.

Dark side.

If you do that, I hope you are there to decide if a situation is Extreme enough to warrant that, because your idea of an extreme situation and theirs might not be the same.

Welcome to the dark side.

I think some situations force us there even when we dont want to be.

Yes it is. I totally agree. Television barely touches the surface. THANK GOD for that! Its bad enough as it is.

Anything is possible.

I'm not claiming to be miss goody two shoes. I reserve the right to torture some Mo-Fo if I have to.

I just object to giving the government the right to do it legally.

If someone had one of my loved ones buried alive, soon to die, I'd probably do the torturing myself.

I will accept the karmic consequences.

Man lives in the sunlit world of what he believes to be reality.
But... there is, unseen by most, an underworld, a place that is just as real,
but not as brightly lit... a DARKSIDE.


The dark side is always there, waiting for us to enter, waiting to enter us.
Until next time, try to enjoy the daylight.

So it is not so black and white then. There are situations in which
you can imagine torturing other people.

What level of torture would you use? Something like waterboarding
which has no lasting physical effects and no proven long term
psychological effects? Or would you also consider cutting out
someone's tongue, blinding them, cutting off fingers or a hand,
broken bones and branding with hot coals or other disfigurement?
How about long term solitary confinement, starving, sleep deprivation and other psychological methods? How about the use of
drugs or electrical shock?

Personally I find that waterboarding might be one of the quickest
and less harmful methods of trying to get a terrorist mastermind to
divulge critical information to save thousands of lives.

So perhaps it would be reasonable to consider allowing its use in
the most extreme situations only such as for leaders of terrorist
groups who are actively trying to kill innocent people or with policies explicitly stating the aim to kill innocent civilians.

I can only imagine it.

It will never happen to me, in reality.

But the subject is not what I could imagine I might do, it is about allowing my representatives, the government, to create a policy of torture as a legal option.

For me, personally, it will never happen.

No.

I may not be able to stop people from doing it behind closed doors and covering it up, as they do these things all the time.

But no, I would never give my permission or approval for its use in any situation to a government or military or intelligence agency.

I'm sure they don't need my permission for their illegal activities. But I will never agree to allow it or make it permissible.

That's the line I draw.

________________________________________

The movie Unthinkable covers this topic and others.

When you are certain that a person knows more than they are telling and it is used as an interrogation tool it can be effective, although people subjected to an array of techniques like this will eventually say anything in order to make it stop and you wont know truth from lies.

When used as a punishment, i.e. with no intent other than causing the victim discomfort, it is plainly uncivilised and harks back to the tyrannies of medieval europe.

Terrorism and the idea of a 'cell' was brought into being by a man named Michael Collins, an irish man who was once a british soldier. Ironically, he used those tactics against the british in the struggle for irish independance.

Irish terrorists bombed many public places both in ireland and on the british mainland during the 1970's and 80's and many non-combatant men, women and children were killed or injured during these campaigns by the IRA. Funded largley by sympathisers in the US and supplied with munitions from countries like Libya, the IRA gained political recognition through their political efforts in the form of sinn fein and representatives now sit at the tables of government.

When a nation that is more powerful invades another, smaller, weaker nation, there will be resistance and hatred towards the oppressors, even though they may be dwarfed by the military might of their enemy.

Sympathisers in neighbouring states will try to aid their comrades.

America, once a colony that strived for its own independance from its british oppressors, has switched roles. From a champion of freedom to something less commendable. Driven by aggressive capitalists, promoting greed it is questionable whether such an ideology can be sustainable yet those in control desire so much to remain in their positions they will use any method to cling to power.

Waterboarding? Of course its torture. Buts who's going to stop it?

This is one of the most idiotic diatribes I've read in a while!

You should audition for the Bill O Really or Sean Wannabe show!

Let me and my friends waterboard you, rather than your friends, and then repost this crap!

If it's not torture, then why is/was it used, what could they possibly have garnered from it as far as usefull information, and why are we having this discussion?

ANY murder or diress inflicted upon another is torturous to that person, and it happens every day.... so do we torture in return for the crimes committed? You are saying we should drop our Constitution and rule of law, become like 3rd world countries in our laws?

Prick Cheney would be proud of you!

Posted this on the wrong thread last night.


This From
British Foreign Secretary William Hague

Britain's reputation had been damaged by a series of claims that MI5 and MI6 officers had been complicit in the extraordinary rendition of terror suspects leading to their detention and torture overseas.


The very making of these allegations undermined Britain's standing in the world as a country that upholds international law and abhors torture

as a rape survivor, I can wholeheartedly disagree,,,I am still alive and not dead is nothing like DEAD

murder is a different category than 'duress', even though I dont condone rape or sodomy as an interrogation technique, I understand and condone using non fatal 'duress' to obtain time sensitive information

Benjamin Franklin (sometimes Thomas Jefferson) is often quoted as saying:

Those who would give up Essential Liberty
to purchase a little Temporary Safety,
deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.


What is the opposite of "LIBERTY?" The answer is: SLAVERY.

What is the opposite of "SAFETY?" Some might answer: DANGER. But that's not the correct answer in this context. In the context of Ben Franklin and the American Revolution, the opposite of "SAFETY" is PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

Samuel Adams said the opposite of SAFETY is "the animating contest of freedom." And in certain situations, Sam Adams said the opposite of LIBERTY is WEALTH. Here is the quote from Sam Adams. "Tranquility" is what Franklin described as "temporary safety":

In a state of tranquillity, wealth, and luxury, our descendants would forget the arts of war* and the noble activity and zeal which made their ancestors invincible. Every art of corruption would be employed to loosen the bond of union which renders our resistance formidable. When the spirit of liberty, which now animates our hearts and gives success to our arms*, is extinct, our numbers will accelerate our ruin and render us easier victims to tyranny. If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom—go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!
* Note that Adams and the Founding Fathers believed they were engaged in a defensive war against tyranny.

America's Founding Fathers would say that Americans today are slaves. Wealthy slaves, but still slaves. Slaves that enjoy luxury and tranquility, but still slaves.

If everyone felt like this we would all be dead, we would have killed each other off by now. The world needs 'bleeding hearts' to balance all the hatefulness and violence in our society.


You should be thanking the
bleeding hearts for saving you.

That's only because you have entered the dark side and it has entered you.





Love you anyway.

Some love being slaves. Their slave masters take good care of the ones who will kiss their butts and do as they are told.