Exactly,... Abra is right.

If I were to seriously assume that the one and only true God was the flying spaghetti monster and I opened a thread or church to that effect and started telling people who do not accept my claims that they are turning away from God, what do you think people would feel about that Cowboy?

You are turning away from God if you do not accept the flying Spaghetti Monster. Your ideas about who is God are all wrong. You worship a false god.

The real and the only God is the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Don't turn your back on God.


*******


Now to you who have specific ideas about who God is and feel you have the absolute truth, I realize that the above statement about the Flying Spaghetti Monster seems ridiculous.

I just want you to see an example. Not of who's God is the real God, but of how YOU feel that you and your religion own God, or copyright to the God concept.

I am in harmony with the spiritual essence of reality.

Anyone who claims that I'm rejecting their God is only telling me that their God cannot be the spiritual essence of reality.

Its that simple.

And the REAL spiritual essence of reality fully understand this TRUTH.

We can do without religions that try to spread hatred toward non-believers of their religion by basically raping them of their FREE WILL choice to accept God in their own way.

Like I say, that's just unholy emotional terrorism. It's totally uncalled for. It's nothing more than religious bigotry. It's about as unholy as anything can get.

I also personally believe that individuals who call themselves "Christians" and go around continually harassing people on this issue because they know that it amounts to emotional terrorism are truly sad people.

If someone tells you that they are not rejecting God. Then that's THEIR FREE WILL CHOICE. To claim that they are rejecting God is to disrespect their FREE WILL CHOICE and rape them of respect.

I do not reject any REAL God. Period amen.

I only reject rumors about immoral blood thirsty jealous Godheads who threaten to physically hurt and torture people who don't believe in them.

That very scenario right there does not describe a "God" as far as I'm concerned. That describes a threatening demon.

So I reject those religions that worship demonic Gods.

There is absolutely no reason for any all-wise all-righteous supreme being to be threatening anyone with physical harm if they don't LOVE him.

That is an utterly contradictory idea right there.

LOVE me or I'll HURT you and then KILL you!

What the HELL kind of divinity would that be?

That's not divine by any stretch of the imagination.

Adolf Hitler could act like that.

Offer me a DIVINE GOD, or take your demonic cult and beat it.

That's my feelings.

Don't talk about a God who will hurt me and kill me if I don't LOVE him. That's just oxymoronic.

You can't walk away from a myth or a superstition. I can't tell you what God is real and which one(s) are superstition, that is up for you to decide. And that is not what this forum is for anyways. Not trying to make anyone believe as I do, not particularly trying to get anyone to believe in the Christian faith. Just here merely discussing and sharing one's own beliefs.

Exactly!!

I'm so glad you understand.

"religion" doesn't spread hate, people occasionally spread hate using their religion. And by the sounds of it, you follow a religion, so for you to talk negatively about it is kind of an oxymoron all in it's own.

Religion = a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

You continually talk about being one with the "spirit" world. Or to put it in exact words "in harmony with the spiritual essence of reality.". This belief constitutes as a religion. So therefore you have faith in a religion. So therefore when you try to "down" or insult "religion" in general, you're merely insulting your own beliefs. When you say "religions" are not true, you are claiming your spiritual belief is not true, and so on and so on.

So by the quoted statement of you, you are saying we can do without your spiritual beliefs, or any other for that matter.

That's correct to a point. However, you need to keep in mind that the people who wrote the New Testament could be included in that. If they wrote things that would cause people to think that they need to believe certain things in order to be accepted by a God then they were spreading hate in their writings.



Yes, you are correct. In this abstract sense I do indeed follow a religion. It's a highly personalized religion, but yes, it would indeed be a religion by the definition you just gave.

However, you are wrong to say that I talk negatively about religion in general. What I complain about is a religion that proclaims that all other religions are false and that anyone who does not accept it is 'rejecting' God.

It sure sounds to me like this is a property of your religion because you seem to be holding out that thesis quite strongly.

Have I ever suggested to you that if you don't believe in my religion that you are choosing to reject God?

I know for certain that I have never suggested any such thing.

If you believe that Christianity is the way to god FOR YOU, then more power to you! I have absolutely no problem with that at all. And I must have told you that a billion times.

I also respect and believe that your spiritual belief in your religion is genuine. If you truly believe that you are worshiping the spiritual essence or creator of all things, then YOU ARE. It truly doesn't matter whether the specific religion you are using for that worship is verbatim truth or not. Your INTENT is all that matters.

Surely any ALL-WISE supreme being could see that your INTENT is GOOD. Therefore why should any such supreme being be upset with you if the religion you are using to worship it is false?

That would be a totally trivial and insignificant issues.

So not only do I NOT claim that you are rejecting God, but on the contrary, I totally recognize the validity of your relationship with God. I don't question it at all. If you are pure at heart then I'm sure that your relationship with God is just as valid as mine. The religious traditions that we use to commune with God are basically irrelevant.

So I don't question your spirituality in the least. And I never have.




You the only one who is constantly repeating to me that if I don't accept Jesus as The Christ I'm rejecting God.

It's not the other way around at all. And never has been.

You're the one who refuses to acknowledge my spiritual connection with God. It's not the other way around, and never has been.

You keep telling me that if I don't accept Christ as my savior I'm rejecting God.

It's all ONE WAY Cowboy. Totally ONE WAY. Your WAY or NO WAY!



Yes I do, that's correct.



No, not at all.

First off, just because I don't believe that Jesus was "The Christ" or that he was "The only begotten Son" of a God who sent him to be the sacrificial lamb to pay for the sins of mankind, does not mean that I do not recognize HIS spiritual essence.

On the contrary I most certainly do. Jesus, as best I can make out form the second-hand rumors we have about him, was quite a guy. I highly respect the man. He's one of my own personal heroes in history.

Just because I believe he was a mortal man doesn't belittle him.

I have great respect for a lot of mortal men. And I also believe that Jesus was every bit as spiritual as any other spiritual figure in history. So I don't belittle him on that account either.

In fact, I don't "belittle" Jesus at all. Never have, and never will.

I have always supported the moral teachings that have been associated with Jesus. What I object to us using Jesus as an excuse to support the writings of Paul and the content of the Old Testament.

So I don't belittle Jesus in any way.

~~~~~

Insulting a Religoin?

As far as "downing" or "insulting" your religion, let's think about that a minute.

What are you doing?

You are constantly HOLDING UP the idea that anyone who rejects the biblical picture of God is rejecting God. You constantly insinuate that this is their FREE WILL CHOICE to knowingly reject this God. In fact you often phrase it as "Choosing to disobey OUR Father".

Also you aren't just referring merely to moral teachings of Jesus, but to the whole shebang. The whole idea that Jesus was born of a virgin, he was the only begotten son of the God of the Old Testament, he died on the cross as the sacrificial lamb of God to make salvation possible for us, etc, etc, etc.

The WHOLE SHEBANG.

So what do people like myself do? We react to the ACCUSATIONS that you are insinuating.

And how do we react?

We react by pointing out why there are valid and sound reasons for not believing in your religion. That religion that you continually insist that if we reject it, we are "rejecting God".

Why do we do this?

We do it to try to show you why we don't BELIEVE a word of it.

That's a quite natural reaction isn't it?

You're trying to tell me that if I fail to believe in your religion I'm rejecting God, it's only fair that I should respond to that by pointing out to you precisely why I don't believe in your religion.

What else would I do? I'm just explaining why your accusation have no grounds.

~~~~

So what do you do then?

You ask, "Why are you insulting my religion?"

Well duh?

I'm NOT!

I'm just telling you why I don't believe it. You take that to be "insulting" because you want to believe it's true and you don't like to hear people giving reasons why it makes no sense.

~~~~~

That's precisely what evangelistic religions cause.

If you're going to continually harp at me that I need to believe in this religion, otherwise I'm "Rejecting God".

Then what else can I do but tell you precisely why I don't believe in the religion?

Then you are "insulted" because I'm giving reasons why I don't believe in your religion.

~~~~~~



Oh no I'm not saying that at all. Let's take a closer look at my quoted statement:



I was speaking to the issues of very specific religions that have very specific behaviors. (i.e. religions that spread hatred toward non-believers of their religion)

It is my humble opinion that to continually harp at people that they are "rejecting God" just because they don't believe in your religion is a hateful thing to do. Especially if the person you are accusing already has a religion of their own as (as I do) and you have even recognized this.

You say: "So by the quoted statement of you, you are saying we can do without your spiritual beliefs, or any other for that matter."

My spiritual beliefs don't have me accusing you of rejecting God if you don't believe in my religion. So my religion would be exempt from this quote.

Have I ever accused you of not believing in God if you don't believe in, or accept my religion? I know for certain that I have never done any such thing. My religion doesn't require that you believe in "it" in order to believe in God. My religion is just a means of acknowledging, communing, and honoring God. My religion doesn't DEFINE God.

You can worship God using any religion. Even Christianity if you so choose.

Have I ever told you NOT to worship God through Christianity?

I'm quite sure I haven't because I don't even feel that way at all. If you are happy worshiping God through Christianity I think that's GREAT. And I'm sure that God would be pleased with that as well.

~~~~~

Worship Jesus as "The Christ" to your hearts content! Believe that he died to pay for YOUR sins. Believe that he has saved you from God's wrath, or Satan, or whatever it is that you believe you have been saved from.

More power to you!

Hallelujah! Praise God! I'm glad that you have found a spiritual means to feel close with God and commune with God. And feel accepted by God and all that.

I couldn't be happier for you!

But please don't come out of that and start "accusing" other people of "rejecting God" if they haven't chosen to believe in the religion of YOUR CHOICE.

~~~~~

That's when the line has been cross Cowboy.

That's when you are insulting my religion without even speaking of it or knowing anything about it. You are automatically insulting it by refusing to even recognize is as being a valid relationship with God. You are totally renouncing my religion and my spiritual beliefs by the mere act of ignoring them and preaching to me that if I haven't accepted Jesus as "The Christ" and the only begotten son of GOD, then I'm rejecting God.

You don't even need to know anything about my religion at all to insult it. You've already insulted it to the hilt by refusing to acknowledge that it could even remotely be worthy of consideration.

So who's insulting who's religion REALLY?

~~~~

Quit preaching to me that I am a "sinner" who needs to accept Jesus as my "savior" and I'll quit telling you why I don't believe in that religion.

Then you will no longer need to feel "insulted".

It's that simple.

No hatred. One would have to first believe in the scriptures for them to have any form of negative effect, otherwise it is just a fairy tell. They would first have to believe, before it would have any form of power over them. You can not go up to a stranger and tell them, if you do not worship the tooth fairy, all your teeth will fall out and it have any form of power over them. They will just look at you strange and move. Same essence with any religion. I can tell a person(s) that Jesus is the only way to ever lasting life till I'm blue in the face. They will either agree or disagree. No harm done, no hatred spread. If the person chooses not to believe, they are not any lesser of a person, any less important, any less anything. They are just a person whom does not wish to serve the Lord Jesus Christ.



All religious beliefs do this more or less. You see your spiritual view as the only "true" spiritual view. With saying that, you are saying all other beliefs are false. So with saying that, you are saying the same thing. No harm done, no foul play. Just this is what you believe, no hatred received, nothing. Just two people with difference of opinions and beliefs.



Because one wouldn't be worshiping that God. That's like saying, it's ok for your woman to leave you and go love another man. It doesn't matter, she's still loving me through him is what you are saying. Same difference. You love this person, that is the person you love. You worship this God, that is the God you worship. You worship this spiritual belief, that is the spiritual belief you worship.



Good to hear :). Nor do I, yours.



I have never said that YOU are rejecting God. This is a forum for expressing spiritual views. If the topic comes up about such a subject, then yes I will say Jesus is the ONLY way to God. But I have never made a person judgement on specifically you or any other one person. Only expressed my spiritual beliefs on such a matter in a general manner.



Again, I know not of your relationship with God or lack thereof. That is only information you know. You could have a spiritual connection with God for all I know. I don't know anyone who does and I don't know anyone who doesn't. I don't know anyone that will or will not make it to Heaven. I know nothing of any sorts for ANYONE. For all I know, you could have an incredible relationship with God.



I keep telling YOU nothing. In a forum, you don't have conversations with one person. Things posted on this forum are for EVERYONE, not directed at you less it starts with your name directed at you. Even if your post is quoted, that is merely done for physical display of what you are replying to and why you are saying such and such. It's not a direct response to the person who made the original comment unless again, your name proceeds the response.



I express my spiritual beliefs on such, nothing more nothing less. I do not directly say so and so will not make it to Heaven because of it or will burn in the lake of fire ect. I merely express my religious belief on such topics. Again, not directed at you or any person in particular.



Not insinuating anything. Again, just expressing my religious beliefs on the topic at hand. Not accusing anyone of anything, not doing anything, but expressing my spiritual views on that matter. Which that is what this forum is for. I can not help it if you take it personal. That is your own thing. Is not intentional from my part.



Have I EVER specifically accused YOU were rejecting God? No I have not, only in your mind my friend.



Again, I accused no one. Merely expressed my spiritual views of the matter at hand.



I'm not preaching nor have I ever specifically said that YOU are a sinner YOU need to accept Jesus. I have NEVER even ONCE said anything along those lines. Again, things posted in forums are not directed at YOU unless your name is included.

Abra...God does not condemn and will not bring you down.

Man does that.

God lifts us up.


WALK AWAY from anyone or anything that upsets you.

That is not from God.

God is Love and never forces anyone to do anything, especially

when things are not even yet clear.

God doesn't expect a thing from any of us , if His ways are

not made clear to us yet.

God's ways and understanding is far greater than man's ways and

understanding .

God's Love is greater than man can even imagine.


Be at peace now.

Go write us another song.

Cowboy, just because you don't direct your statements at an individual by name does not mean that you are not talking to the reader of your claim.

Especially when you are having a conversation back and forth with a particular person or persons in a forum.

When you make the claim that Jesus is the only way to God and anyone who does not accept that is "rejecting" God you are talking to anyone and everyone. That you don't call them by name does not protect you from the suggestion that you are indeed "preaching."

We pretty much already KNOW what you believe and we do not accept your premises or conclusions and yet you still speak as if you are stating accepted facts. Your "facts" have not been accepted.

Abra does not do this.

Abra does not preach his religion to you or anyone.

But you do.

I find it very peculiar that you still don't realize the difference.

Why are you lying Cowboy? And bearing false witness against another?

I have never said anything remotely like what you've just posted here, nor do I even believe that way.

If you're going to make up outright lies about me then I'm done conversing with you. Does your religion teach you to lie like this?

I never said that I see my spiritual views as the "only true spiritual view", nor do I even remotely feel that way about my spiritual views.

You've fabricated that lie entirely on your own.

I do not think the way you claim here at all. Not even remotely.

And I see no reason to converse with you based on totally fabricated lies like this.

Morningsong, Abra is at peace. Why would you think he is not?

You don't need to tell me that MorningSong. I'm fully aware of this.

In fact, if a religious proselytizer is bringing people down, they are clearly not from God. Even many of the authors of the Bible have recognized this and written that we can tell false preachers by the stench of their rotten fruit. (they didn't put in exactly those terms, but that's what they meant. )

Cowboy's preaching is rotten fruit to be sure. No question about that.



Cowboy isn't upsetting me. He's just being rude and making up lies about me.

I don't hold that against him. He's either trying to be mean, or just doesn't know any better. If he's trying to be mean, then he's pathetic and I feel sorry for him. If he doesn't know any better then he can't be blamed.

So what's to get upset about?



Don't worry MorningSong, I never once suspected that Cowboy speaks for God, or that God should be held responsible in any way for Cowboy's actions or speech.






I agree with all of that.

Don't worry MorningSong, I don't make any connection at all between Cowboy and God.

We're discussing religions here, and social issues.




I'm currently working on an instrumental called "Gaia's Fire".

It's Guitar, Drums and Saxophone.

But it's going to be quite some time before I'll be ready to record it. I'm learning all three parts myself, and the drum and saxophone parts are going to require quite a bit of practice on my part.

But now that you've mentioned it I might write up a little song with just vocals and guitar. Care to suggest a subject or title for inspirational food for thought. Can't say I'll go with it, but who knows? I tend to do my best work when hit with some external inspiration.

Truly, and I most certainly never suggested that my spiritual views are the only true views.

I don't even think that way, why would I proclaim that to be the case?

That's as far from the truth as anything can get.

Jeannie...in answer to your question:


There is a time to speak...and there is a time to be

silent.



" Be at peace ".....meaning....

may we all be at peace here now .

Song Titles fro Abra:

River Deep

Soul Song

River's Edge

Night Song

Day Awakes

River Cry

Wonder Song

Silent Cry

Reach Out

Open Door

Deep of Night

Rainbow Song

Melodious Meditations

Songwriter's Lament

You crack me up MorningSong.

You're going to make darn SURE that I have enough food for thought to inspire me to run off and writing a song.

Ok, I think I can find some inspiration in there somewhere.

Don't worry MorningSong, I never once suspected that Cowboy speaks for God, or that God should be held responsible in any way for Cowboy's actions or speech.


...........


I wasn't signaling out Cowboy...I was simply

addressing anything and anyone who creates negativity for you,

Abra...myself included!!


Be Blessed Now.......

waiting to hear that song now....

You never upset me MorningSong. I understand that you're stuck with the belief that Jesus is the only way. You do the best you can within the confines of that belief system.

Although, in truth, there are scriptural verses that Christians could use to acknowledge that non-Christians can indeed have a totally healthy relationship with God without any need to believe in Jesus or even be 'saved' by Jesus.

They just refuse to allow for those interpretations.

So even the doctrine itself allows for non-Christians to get to God. Christians don't need to insist that everyone must accept Jesus as their savior. It's just not something that needs to be shoved onto people. There is plenty of scripture to allow for non-Christians to be accepted by God.

All that's truly required is for the Christians themselves to start acknowledging that.

Abra.......since you are currently working on an

instrumental called "Gaia's Fire" , please stay focused on that

for now.


The song can wait.

Seriously.


I know how important it can be to not be distracted when

creating a musical composition of any kind, especially an

instrumental.

Again, The song can wait.

Be Blessed Now.