What reasoning causes anyone to think that a person who lived 2000 years ago who was proclaimed to be the son of God by the church, is the path to heaven?

Why do people believe, in this gigantic universe, that there is only one place to go after death, and that is a place called Heaven? Are there not billions and billions of stars and planets in the universe?

None of that makes any logical sense at all.

Cowboy, You are misunderstanding this scripture, and I

am not going to explain again.

Now ....IF we are truly saved, works WILL ALWAYS FOLLOW.... as

PROOF that we ARE saved !!!


THAT is what that scripture means.

Jessu paid it all on that cross...none of our stinking works

could EVER add to what God already did for us on that cross!!!

Good for you MorningSong!

You saved at least ONE contradiction.

Nice SAVE!

You're comparing apples and oranges. Heaven isn't on another planet, it's not on a star. And what does the age have to do with anything? So since something happened yesterday, it no longer matters and is automatically false?

What those verses say and what you say have absolutely nothing in common. Says faith without works is dead being alone. What you say is once you establish the faith, the works will automatically come. Which again is totally different then what those verses say.

And even goes on with "if a man has faith and no works". What you say is with the faith the works come automatically. So why would they specifically say faith without works then? Would be a waste of time according to you, to include that little notion, because according to you that is impossible to happen. But obviously it is possible, or it would not have needed to be included in the verses or to even be originally said.

Again can you explain to me how a divine being is gonna use a book to base our knowledge of it, that is so complicated you gotta jump through numerous hoops to understand it? It makes no sense! Surely if God wants us to understand, it'd make it a LOT easier no?

According to the bible, Jesus' real name was Yeshua which means "YHWH saves".

Interesting note on "YHWH": Most who understand the translation see that as "I am what I am" or simply "I am". I have found out that another possibility could be "I will be what I will be"





Yes, I see what's going on here or else I wouldn't be responding.





Yup, alot of paganism has crept in... That's one of the benefits of actually reading the Bible though, it allows you to reject or disregard that crap.

Some people are totally infatuated with the idea of winning a trip to heaven that this is all that matters to them. It's the PRIZE they seeking, not Jesus. They couldn't care less about Jesus!

Take away the prize of eternal life, and they'd drop Jesus like a hot potato.

Why do you think Cowboy has absolutely NO INTEREST in Buddha at all?

Buddha has nothing to offer!

Cowboy is only interested the GIFT.

No GIFT, no interest.

It's that simple.

He wants the directions to heaven, and he's not interested in anything else.

In fact, isn't that interesting? People who follow the teachings of Buddha are obviously following those teachings solely because they are interested in spirituality NOT because they were promised some Gift.

Same thing holds true for Wicca, except Wicca does offer magick which is pretty cool. But the magick is certainly no "gift" magick is something that absolutely must be earned through much dedication and spiritual and physical work. So it's hardly a gift, it's just a natural reward for hard work, not unlike the normal physical rewards we get from having accomplished something.

If you take a few of the ten commandments and some of what Jesus supposedly preached out of the bible, you might could say there are some good ideas in the book. Otherwise, it is bunch of gobbley **** from men 2000 years ago. Misogynistic and teaching prejudice would be more in line with what the book teaches.

Now the birth and death and rebirth was learned from watching plants during the seasons. Understanding the fact that we leave behind our offspring to carry us on, by memory, but still they carry us on. Is also shown in nature.

Most everything can be learned from watching what goes on around us. The sun had to have been a giver of life and warmth and the bringer of death and famine. Because that is what humans experienced. And is probably why the Christian god is played to be the lover of humans and great killer of his love ones.

Christianity brings more bad than good though so it has to be tempered or we are doomed.

The gift matters none in this exact way. I know not if I will make it to Heaven or not, for I have no been judged. I know not if you will go or won't go, I know not if anyone will or won't be there. It is an appreciated possible gift, don't get me wrong. But that's not the reason of it all. The reason is to love that which created me, us. Nothing more nothing less. Even if I don't make it to Heaven, I would be content with knowing the love I shared with our God. Wouldn't make me try any less if the reward was a mega stretchy rubber band in a hole in the ground to spend my eternity there. It's about loving God and doing this by obeying his request(s).

So then Cowboy, you are saying that if you spend your life loving God and spreading his word, and you were rejected from going to heaven after all of that and ended up facing what ever punishment the losers get, you would not be angry?

You would just "Oh well, I am just content that I shared love with God all of my life.

You said:

"Even if I don't make it to Heaven, I would be content with knowing the love I shared with our God."

Now by saying that you don't know if you will make it to Heaven, then what does that say about your faith? Why do you feel that you might not get into Heaven? What doubts about yourself do you have that you think God will reject you?

"magick" most certainly is a gift. Everyone has it but some distort and weaken it with their thoughts.


I bet you think rituals and incantations are what magick is, huh?



"My magick is stronger than your magick..." < Me

I don't necessarily feel I won't make it to Heaven. But yes, if I spent my entire life living purely for God giving up anything and everything just to serve the lord, but yet I didn't make it to Heaven, no I wouldn't have foul feelings against our God. His judgement will be righteous, so whatever the judgement is in the end is totally justified and is what I deserved.

Cowboy, IF you want to think you have to add your stinkin works

to what God already did, go right ahead.

But That scripture saying, " If a man SAYS he has faith and not works......"


means simply this :

NOT everyone who SAYS they have faith, is really saved !!!

Because works WILL follow if one is truly saved.

A changed heart and a changed life will follow if one is saved.

A heart of God will result when one is saved.

Obedience and doing good works will FOLLOW IF one is saved.


If not, then one is most likely not saved at all.

Or, if one IS saved, but no works follow, he is a just a

lazy christian, who isn't growing....but then God will get

his attention and chasten him.


But again, in this case, that scripture is basically saying,

that IF one says he has faith and NO works follow, that

person is NOT saved at all.


Remember where God said in His Word ,that not everyone that says, "Lord Lord", is known of God?

meaning....God will say to some, "I never knew You."

Empty Words, cause one was never saved at all.


Now..I explained one last time....and am not going here again

with you, Cowboy.

God paid it ALLLLLLLL on that cross....none of our stinkin

works could EVER add to what God already did for us.


Now,,,,IF you still wish to continue believing that you have to

ADD works to salvation, fine.

Nothing more I can do to make it any clearer to you now.

You both like preaching the divisive misinterpretations don'cha?

PeterPan wrote:







Sorry PeterPan..that's not what the biBle says at all...

Jesus IS our Mediator !!!


Jesus paid for ALL our sins ON THAT CROSS...you could never pay

for your own Sins..and God KNEW this....this is WHY God sent us His Son.


And....

Only Jesus Saves !!!!


Meaning...you have to GO THRU THE SON, in order to get to the Father.

NO OTHER WAY.



CAN'T BYPASS JESUS TO GET TO THE FATHER.


NOPE.



God the Father has Given ALL the Glory Now to His Son Jesus,

becasue of what Jesus did on that cross for us all!!

Faith alone can not save a person.


James 2
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Well, yes in that sense it is a "gift" just like our physical bodies and abilities are a "gift". Everyone uses magick all the time whether they realize it or not.

I actually meant that it's not a "Gift" given to Wiccans because they joined a religion or believe in a particular Goddess.

Unfortunately though, without spiritual training of some sort (even if it comes in the form of secular psychology) people quite often use their magic to their own detriment. It's just as easy to use magic to do something unproductive as it is to use it for productive things.

Just like you can use a hammer to drive a nail, or break a window. Same tool, different results.

People who are untrained in the art of magical transformation still transform things. They just have no clue how they are doing it, or even that it's them who is doing it.



I hope you didn't place too much on that bet.

No. Rituals and incantations are not what magick is. However, if you think that rituals and incantations cannot be a powerful part of a magical orchestration then you could benefit from learning the fallacy of that thinking.

All that "rituals" and "incantations" amount to are purposeful actions of body, mind, and spirit. And if you think for one second that your body, mind, and spirit aren't involved in the orchestration of magickal transformations then I'd say you are indeed lacking an understanding of magick quite significantly.



I would have no clue how are ability to cause transformations might compare. I don't view magick as a competition, nor would I care to become involved in a display of magickal competition. I just use magick for my own spiritual and physical growth and well-being.

I hope your magick is indeed quite effective. And that you use it for positive works as well.

Put into simple terms. If you're gonna talk the talk, you gotta walk the walk. Faith is made perfect through our actions.

Cowboy, since you don't even believe in the DEITY of

Jesus at all ,or even believe that God is a SUPREME BEING,

then I am not surprised that everything else in God's Word ,will

be misconscued by you also.

WHEN You DON'T believe in THE REAL JESUS FOR WHO HE REALLY

IS(but just believe Him to be some demi-god) .....


then JESUS NEVER CAME IN ......CAUSE JESUS WILL NEVER COME IN

AND DWELL IN A HEART THAT DOES NOT BELEIVE IN WHO HE IS.


HE WOULD HAVE TO BE AN INTRUDER TO DO THAT.