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| Topic: Christ without Christianity | |
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Cowboy, IF you want to think you have to add your stinkin works to what God already did, go right ahead. But That scripture saying, " If a man SAYS he has faith and not works......" means simply this : NOT everyone who SAYS they have faith, is really saved !!! Because works WILL follow if one is truly saved. A changed heart and a changed life will follow if one is saved. A heart of God will result when one is saved. Obedience and doing good works will FOLLOW IF one is saved. If not, then one is most likely not saved at all. Or, if one IS saved, but no works follow, he is a just a lazy christian, who isn't growing....but then God will get his attention and chasten him. But again, in this case, that scripture is basically saying, that IF one says he has faith and NO works follow, that person is NOT saved at all. Remember where God said in His Word ,that not everyone that says, "Lord Lord", is known of God? meaning....God will say to some, "I never knew You." Empty Words, cause one was never saved at all. Now..I explained one last time....and am not going here again with you, Cowboy. God paid it ALLLLLLLL on that cross....none of our stinkin works could EVER add to what God already did for us. Now,,,,IF you still wish to continue believing that you have to ADD works to salvation, fine. Nothing more I can do to make it any clearer to you now. 
Faith alone can not save a person. James 2 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? Put into simple terms. If you're gonna talk the talk, you gotta walk the walk. Faith is made perfect through our actions. First one gets the faith. But what good does that faith do them if it is not put to practice? And what are they displaying about their faith if they don't practice that which they have faith in? |
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Cowboy, since you don't even believe in the DEITY of Jesus at all ,or even believe that God is a SUPREME BEING, then I am not surprised that everything else in God's Word ,will be misconscued by you also. WHEN You DON'T believe in THE REAL JESUS FOR WHO HE REALLY IS(but just believe Him to be some demi-god) ..... then JESUS NEVER CAME IN ......CAUSE JESUS WILL NEVER COME IN AND DWELL IN A HEART THAT DOES NOT BELEIVE IN WHO HE IS. HE WOULD HAVE TO BE AN INTRUDER TO DO THAT.
1 Cowboy, since you don't even believe in the DEITY of Jesus at all I have never said that once, or insinuated it. Jesus is our God. You're getting confused when we were talking before. Jesus and the (his) father are two separate entities is all I was saying. Never claimed Jesus wasn't God, a God, our God, or anything of such. Just was pointing out that Jesus and his father are two SEPARATE entities. But they are one, they have the same will, Jesus does the will of the father. Luke 4:12 12And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Deuteronomy 6:2 2That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged. or even believe that God is a SUPREME BEING, And I have absolutely no idea where you got that. Please enlighten us (me). I'm courious. |
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Cowboy, IF you want to think you have to add your stinkin works to what God already did, go right ahead. But That scripture saying, " If a man SAYS he has faith and not works......" means simply this : NOT everyone who SAYS they have faith, is really saved !!! Because works WILL follow if one is truly saved. A changed heart and a changed life will follow if one is saved. A heart of God will result when one is saved. Obedience and doing good works will FOLLOW IF one is saved. If not, then one is most likely not saved at all. Or, if one IS saved, but no works follow, he is a just a lazy christian, who isn't growing....but then God will get his attention and chasten him. But again, in this case, that scripture is basically saying, that IF one says he has faith and NO works follow, that person is NOT saved at all. Remember where God said in His Word ,that not everyone that says, "Lord Lord", is known of God? meaning....God will say to some, "I never knew You." Empty Words, cause one was never saved at all. Now..I explained one last time....and am not going here again with you, Cowboy. God paid it ALLLLLLLL on that cross....none of our stinkin works could EVER add to what God already did for us. Now,,,,IF you still wish to continue believing that you have to ADD works to salvation, fine. Nothing more I can do to make it any clearer to you now.
Faith alone can not save a person. James 2 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? Put into simple terms. If you're gonna talk the talk, you gotta walk the walk. Faith is made perfect through our actions. James 2:24 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. |
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Do you beleive in the DEITY of Jesus???
YES or NO |
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Do you beleive in the DEITY of Jesus??? YES or NO Yes absolutely, Jesus is our lord, our God. You must have either me confused with someone else, or you have gotten a misconception of me somewhere. |
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Dear MorningSong, Your spiritual interpretations of the biblical story are very beautiful. If I were going to follow a "Christianity" I would follow an interpretation that very much agrees with yours. I fully understand your view of the religion. I also understand how it is dramatically different from Cowboy's view of the religion. Cowboy has a much more hardcore fundamentalist's view, whilst you have a far higher spiritual view. I personally feel that the that the biblical scriptures do indeed convey a picture of a God who reaches out to people when the time is right. I have even pointed this out to Cowboy in the past but he remains obviousness to it to this day. Jesus clearly told his disciples the parable of the lost sheep and asked, "Who of you would not go out in the field to look for your lost sheep?" And then he says, "Would your Father in heaven not to the same?" In other words, if God wants to "save" someone, he's do it. And it's not up to a person to save themselves, it's up to God. This is quite contrary to Cowboy's view that he needs to save himself by satisfying all the apparent requirements and "earning" his salvation. I'm in total agreement with you that the scriptures paint a far different picture. Or at least parts of them do. Unfortunately there are parts that do seem to support a more hardcore fundamentalist interpretation. It' my belief that the story is so abstract, and conflicting that it can be made into various different stories. In fact, I think part of the reason for that has to do with the different authors of the scriptures and how they viewed things as well. Having said all of this, I still don't believe in a God who requires blood sacrifices, and I don't believe that Jesus was the "sacrificial lamb" of God. So I'm not about to buy into the religion in the overall details. But if I had to support a version of Christianity, I do like your version the best. Actually your version is not knew. Our family had views quite similar to yours. My mother's interpretations of the Bible were very much akin to yours. That is a far more beautiful picture of Christianity and Christ than the kind of picture that the fundamentalists paint. You paint a picture of a truly loving Christ. Not a Christ who is giving people ultimatums like the fundamentalists like to make it out to be. So just know that I do understand your view of Christianity and how it differs dramatically from Cowboy's. I think if all Christians believed like you Christianity in general would be a far more attractive and beautiful religion. It would still contain that thorn in the side of blood sacrifices though. That is highly problematic for me, no matter how pretty it's painted in other areas. And there would still be a lot of negative issues associate with the Old Testament. But you do paint a truly beautiful picture of Jesus. 
God bless you for that. 
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PeterPan wrote: There is no mediator between God and I.
Noone but me can "pay" for my sins. YHWH saves, not "Jesus". These things are what the Bible says... Sorry PeterPan..that's not what the biBle says at all... Jesus IS our Mediator !!! Jesus paid for ALL our sins ON THAT CROSS...you could never pay for your own Sins..and God KNEW this....this is WHY God sent us His Son. And.... Only Jesus Saves !!!! Meaning...you have to GO THRU THE SON, in order to get to the Father. NO OTHER WAY. CAN'T BYPASS JESUS TO GET TO THE FATHER. NOPE. God the Father has Given ALL the Glory Now to His Son Jesus, becasue of what Jesus did on that cross for us all!!
so who is YHWH? |
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James 2:24
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Justified yes.....but notice now.... that scripture did NOT say, "by works a man is saved......" it just said , " by works a man is justified..."
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Dear MorningSong, Your spiritual interpretations of the biblical story are very beautiful. If I were going to follow a "Christianity" I would follow an interpretation that very much agrees with yours. I fully understand your view of the religion. I also understand how it is dramatically different from Cowboy's view of the religion. Cowboy has a much more hardcore fundamentalist's view, whilst you have a far higher spiritual view. I personally feel that the that the biblical scriptures do indeed convey a picture of a God who reaches out to people when the time is right. I have even pointed this out to Cowboy in the past but he remains obviousness to it to this day. Jesus clearly told his disciples the parable of the lost sheep and asked, "Who of you would not go out in the field to look for your lost sheep?" And then he says, "Would your Father in heaven not to the same?" In other words, if God wants to "save" someone, he's do it. And it's not up to a person to save themselves, it's up to God. This is quite contrary to Cowboy's view that he needs to save himself by satisfying all the apparent requirements and "earning" his salvation. I'm in total agreement with you that the scriptures paint a far different picture. Or at least parts of them do. Unfortunately there are parts that do seem to support a more hardcore fundamentalist interpretation. It' my belief that the story is so abstract, and conflicting that it can be made into various different stories. In fact, I think part of the reason for that has to do with the different authors of the scriptures and how they viewed things as well. Having said all of this, I still don't believe in a God who requires blood sacrifices, and I don't believe that Jesus was the "sacrificial lamb" of God. So I'm not about to buy into the religion in the overall details. But if I had to support a version of Christianity, I do like your version the best. Actually your version is not knew. Our family had views quite similar to yours. My mother's interpretations of the Bible were very much akin to yours. That is a far more beautiful picture of Christianity and Christ than the kind of picture that the fundamentalists paint. You paint a picture of a truly loving Christ. Not a Christ who is giving people ultimatums like the fundamentalists like to make it out to be. So just know that I do understand your view of Christianity and how it differs dramatically from Cowboy's. I think if all Christians believed like you Christianity in general would be a far more attractive and beautiful religion. It would still contain that thorn in the side of blood sacrifices though. That is highly problematic for me, no matter how pretty it's painted in other areas. And there would still be a lot of negative issues associate with the Old Testament. But you do paint a truly beautiful picture of Jesus.
God bless you for that.
I personally feel that the that the biblical scriptures do indeed convey a picture of a God who reaches out to people when the time is right. I have even pointed this out to Cowboy in the past but he remains obviousness to it to this day. Jesus clearly told his disciples the parable of the lost sheep and asked, "Who of you would not go out in the field to look for your lost sheep?" And then he says, "Would your Father in heaven not to the same?" I have never once said God didn't do this. God first touches you. He'll do it once and it's up to you to take the next step. God reaches out to his children first, and waits for them to reach back. In other words, if God wants to "save" someone, he's do it. And it's not up to a person to save themselves, it's up to God. No one can save themselves. We are all in need of Jesus. But Jesus does not save you alone. You have to do the work as well. You can not go around stealing, killing, ect and expect to get to Heaven. Jesus is the path, he is the way. The knowledge he has given us is the knowledge on how to achieve Heaven. Without Jesus, without this knowledge, it would be impossible for anyone to get to Heaven. |
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Edited by
CowboyGH
on
Mon 11/07/11 07:50 PM
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James 2:24
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Justified yes.....but notice now.... that scripture did NOT say, "by works a man is saved......" it just said , " by works a man is justified..."
Never said works alone can save a person. Takes both faith and works. Faith without works is dead. Even the devils have faith in God. |
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Do you beleive in the DEITY of Jesus??? YES or NO Yes absolutely, Jesus is our lord, our God. You must have either me confused with someone else, or you have gotten a misconception of me somewhere. I asked, " do you believe in the DEITY of Jesus....yes or no."
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Jeanniebean wrote:
so who is YHWH? YHWH are Hebrew letters that represent the unspeakable name of God. They lately became Yahweh and are often used as a pronounceable name for God. 
In many of the books I read on magick it is said that the ancient Hebrew letters YHWH were actually symbols used by Hebrew magicians to represent the four elements, Earth, Air, Fire and Water. All of which came from God and was God. Much like God is the Word and the Word is God. That actually started out being God is symbol and symbol is God. Or God is manifestation and manifestation is God. YHWH became the unspeakable "symbol" for God. It represented both the unmanifest and the manifest simultaneously. The elements and their source. It is also said by many that the Hebrews actually got these ideas from the Egyptians originally. And I've heard some speculate that the Egyptians got them from the far East (i.e. India). Who knows for sure? Obviously no one alive today. 
But yes, that's the origin of the unspeakable name Yahweh the God of the Bible or the God of Abraham. |
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Do you beleive in the DEITY of Jesus??? YES or NO Yes absolutely, Jesus is our lord, our God. You must have either me confused with someone else, or you have gotten a misconception of me somewhere. I asked, " do you believe in the DEITY of Jesus....yes or no."
Yes, and I already answered the question. I said Jesus is our God. Deity = The essential nature or condition of being a god; divinity. So with having said he is our God, would be safe to assume I thought Jesus to be God. |
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Do you beleive in the DEITY of Jesus??? YES or NO Yes absolutely, Jesus is our lord, our God. You must have either me confused with someone else, or you have gotten a misconception of me somewhere. I asked, " do you believe in the DEITY of Jesus....yes or no."
Yes, and I already answered the question. I said Jesus is our God. Deity = The essential nature or condition of being a god; divinity. So with having said he is our God, would be safe to assume I thought Jesus to be God. "God" in itself is not an entity. It is a title. That is why when Jesus was on the cross he referred to his father as "God" or "Eli" Matthew 27:46 46And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? |
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Do you beleive in the DEITY of Jesus??? YES or NO Yes absolutely, Jesus is our lord, our God. You must have either me confused with someone else, or you have gotten a misconception of me somewhere. I asked, " do you believe in the DEITY of Jesus....yes or no."
Yes, and I already answered the question. I said Jesus is our God. Deity = The essential nature or condition of being a god; divinity. So with having said he is our God, would be safe to assume I thought Jesus to be God. "God" in itself is not an entity. It is a title. That is why when Jesus was on the cross he referred to his father as "God" or "Eli" Matthew 27:46 46And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Verses as such is why I know they are two separate entities. Jesus is our God, no doubt about that. But he is not his father. He and his father are one, they have the same will. Jesus does the will of his father, ect. But yet they are two separate entities. John 8:18 18I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me |
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Eli (Hebrew: עֵלִי, Modern ʻEli Tiberian ʻĒlî ; "My God", possibly "Ascent") was, according to the Books of Samuel, the name of a priest of Shiloh, and one of the last Israelite Judges before the rule of kings in ancient Israel.
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Eli (Hebrew: עֵלִי, Modern ʻEli Tiberian ʻĒlî ; "My God", possibly "Ascent") was, according to the Books of Samuel, the name of a priest of Shiloh, and one of the last Israelite Judges before the rule of kings in ancient Israel. Yes he referred to his father as "my God" God = person or thing of supreme value Jesus never made himself equal with God the father, he was always humble. He would say things as he did the will of his father. Jesus did as his father told him to do or wanted to do. His father is supreme to him, his father is his god. And Jesus is supreme to us, he is the one in charge of us. That is why Jesus is our lord, our God. |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Mon 11/07/11 08:21 PM
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.........It would still contain that thorn in the side of blood sacrifices though. That is highly problematic for me, no matter how pretty it's painted in other areas. And there would still be a lot of negative issues associate with the Old Testament.
But you do paint a truly beautiful picture of Jesus.
God bless you for that.
Abra, Thank You for your very Kind Words. But all credit goes to God....not me. 
Abra.....as far as understanding the sacrifice part... God, Who is the ONE Who SAVES in the first place, is ALSO MORE THAN ABLE, to make His Word PERFECTLY CLEAR in Time also. Amen? Amen. I Love You Abra!!!
So Does God !!!!
God Bless You Too, Abra!!!
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You can not go around stealing, killing, ect and expect to get to Heaven. And expect to get into Heaven Jesus is the path, he is the way. The way to where? Heaven? The knowledge he has given us is the knowledge on how to achieve Heaven. How to achieve Heaven Without Jesus, without this knowledge, it would be impossible for anyone to get to Heaven. To get to Heaven ~~~~~~~ You sure seem to be obsessed with getting into heaven. ~~~~~~~ I think MorningSong's spiritual views have a dramatically different flavor and motivation. She seems to be far more into understanding love. Getting into Heaven would be a mere consequence of that, certainly not the central focal point of her spiritual quest. I think Jeanniebean already touched on this. It's all about love and compassion Cowboy. It's not about lust to "get into Heaven" That's the wrong focal point. That's just seeking a reward. A reward for what? For merely being obedient to God? Nah. What a cheap heaven that would be. Nope is FAR DEEPER than that Cowboy. It's all about LOVE, it's not about "Where do I get the instructions for how to get into Heaven". |
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Eli (Hebrew: עֵלִי, Modern ʻEli Tiberian ʻĒlî ; "My God", possibly "Ascent") was, according to the Books of Samuel, the name of a priest of Shiloh, and one of the last Israelite Judges before the rule of kings in ancient Israel. Yes he referred to his father as "my God" God = person or thing of supreme value Jesus never made himself equal with God the father, he was always humble. He would say things as he did the will of his father. Jesus did as his father told him to do or wanted to do. His father is supreme to him, his father is his god. And Jesus is supreme to us, he is the one in charge of us. That is why Jesus is our lord, our God. God the father - Romans 8:15 “So you have not received a spirit that makes you fearful slaves. Instead, you received God’s Spirit when he adopted you as his own children. Now we call him, Abba, Father. God the son - John 20:28 28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God. And no they can not be the same entity, for while Jesus was on the cross, he yelled out to his father why hast thou forsaken me, so no I'm not supporting the trinity theory. |
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