I've already been shown that this theory cannot be made to work.

The New Testament has Jesus saying, "Till heaven and earth pass, not one jot nor one tittle shall pass from law".

If Jesus was the son of the God of the Torah, then he could have only been referring to the Torah when he said that, because there were no other written laws at that time.

So you're theory here is in direct conflict with the New Testament itself. Your claims are not supported by what the text actually states.

Notice that is from the new testament. So these laws he was talking about had to have been referring to the laws Jesus was teaching and not the teachings of the Torah for Jesus wasn't teaching the Torah. So yes I do agree that not one jot or one tittle shall pass from the law Jesus gave us till heaven and earth pass. Because Jesus would not have been talking about the Torah when he specifically had stated that he came to fulfill that set of laws.

The world isn't swirling into more and more crime. That's you're own delusion. The world always fluctuates. Look at the roaring 20's for example. People probably thought that was an extremely criminal time, and it was!

Then we had the 40's which was more of a WORLD AT WAR! Many people probably thought that was the end of times!

Then we had the 50's which were relatively peaceful and fairly free of crime.

Then the 60's when everyone thought the world was going to pot.

Then the 70's and 80's were pretty nice, etc.

It goes up and down. The crime rate today is not changed significantly.


That and I know from personal experience this is all hogwash. All three of my brothers have gotten into drugs, gangs, and so forth. Which was not how we were raised. Not putting me on a pedestal, but how could 1 out of 4 be so totally different when they were raised by the same people, the same way if it all revolved around how one was raised? You're just trying to find a scapegoat. The only one that can be blamed for ones actions is oneself. You can not blame anyone else for an action YOU took or didn't take. So please, try again.


I don't need a scapegoat Cowboy. I don't do bad things.

I don't need to blame anyone for my actions. I take full responsibility for all of my actions.

So you're the one who need to please try again!

I have no idea what causes some humans to become criminals, or otherwise nasty people. But what I do know is that no truly intelligent person CHOOSES to do so by FREE WILL CHOICE. Because that would be insane.

So you believe that you're brothers have FREELY CHOSEN to spite their creator and reject a Gift of eternal life in favor of living a short life of misery and ending up either dead, or in a potential state of eternal suffering?

Why would you think any person would ever FREELY CHOOSE such a fate?

Tell me that.

And if they haven't FREELY CHOSEN it, then your whole religion falls flat on its face!

That and I know from personal experience this is all hogwash. All three of my brothers have gotten into drugs, gangs, and so forth. Which was not how we were raised. Not putting me on a pedestal, but how could 1 out of 4 be so totally different when they were raised by the same people, the same way if it all revolved around how one was raised? You're just trying to find a scapegoat. The only one that can be blamed for ones actions is oneself. You can not blame anyone else for an action YOU took or didn't take. So please, try again.


I don't need a scapegoat Cowboy. I don't do bad things.

I don't need to blame anyone for my actions. I take full responsibility for all of my actions.

So you're the one who need to please try again!

I have no idea what causes some humans to become criminals, or otherwise nasty people. But what I do know is that no truly intelligent person CHOOSES to do so by FREE WILL CHOICE. Because that would be insane.

So you believe that you're brothers have FREELY CHOSEN to spite their creator and reject a Gift of eternal life in favor of living a short life of misery and ending up either dead, or in a potential state of eternal suffering?

Why would you think any person would ever FREELY CHOOSE such a fate?

Tell me that.

And if they haven't FREELY CHOSEN it, then your whole religion falls flat on its face!






I never said any of such. I said my bro's have chosen a completely illegal life style from their own choosing and not because of their parents. For if it would have been the parents fault, ALL the children would have been the same.

and yes the world is swirling into more crime. Maybe not so much "more" crime, just larger form of crimes, more destruction. We've gone from a neighbor shooting a neighbor with a little pistol, to total bank robberies with automatic rifles and chemical war fare.

The general population has more access to these forms of destruction then they had access to do in previous years. They are becoming more and more used compared to prior years.

You used to be able to just stroll down the street and enjoy the sunshine, now in places such as parts of California, you have to continuously watch your back.

No, not at all. Just because one or more of the children happen to be good does not mean that it was good parenting that caused the good children to be good.

Besides, unless you're saying that your parents punished you far more than they punished your brothers, your point is moot.

My original point was that I don't believe that an all-wise all-intelligent God would stoop to the level of using "punishment" as a means of trying to teach people good moral values.

So now you're bringing up an example where a single set of parents had different results with different children. How does that equate to punishment as being an effective means of teaching good moral values? Unless you're claiming that they punished the good children more than they punished the bad children.

We already know that some truly great people have survived truly horrible parents who not only didn't teach them to have good morals, but who didn't even have good moral values themselves. Yet the children grew up to have great morals in spite of the poor parenting!

If anything, all you're doing is confirming that punishment as a method of teaching good morals to children isn't even relevant, much less productive.

So if everyone's parents were as great as yours we would have absolutely no crime in this world? If everyone's parents were as great as yours we would all be as great as you? You truly believe this? If everyone's parents were just as yours we would have absolutely nothing cruel in this world? If everyone's parents were as great as yours this world would turn back into the paradise that was originally set up?



My point is that it doesn't matter how your parents raised you, you are going to be the person you choose to be. Doesn't matter if your parents are rich, poor, kind, cruel, loving, hateful, tall, short, or anything. It is not your parents fault for the person you are today. Weather you're a good person or a incredibly bad person, that all revolves around you and what you choose. Not how your parents raised you.

I don't recall having ever attributed my goodness to my parents.

The only point I was making is that punishment is not an intelligent method of teaching good morals IMHO, and I don't feel that parents who need to rely on punishment as a means of education are very bright.

You're suggesting that God needs to resort to this form of parenting.

Therefore, from my point of view, you're implying that God isn't very bright.



Besides, unless you're saying that your parents punished you far more than they punished your brothers, your point is moot.


My point is that it doesn't matter how your parents raised you, you are going to be the person you choose to be. Doesn't matter if your parents are rich, poor, kind, cruel, loving, hateful, tall, short, or anything. It is not your parents fault for the person you are today. Weather you're a good person or a incredibly bad person, that all revolves around you and what you choose. Not how your parents raised you.


But then your suggestion that God needs to punished people in order to instill them with good morals makes no sense.

You're the one who keeps trying to make analogies of God with human parents. Using the frailty and stupidity of mortal parents as a means of justifying your God's methods of parenting.

Now you're saying that people will make their own choices anyway. Thus totally refuting the need for your God to "punish" anyone in an attempt to teach them any moral lessons.

You keep trying to make analogies with mortal human behavior to try to justify your God's behavior, but in the end, you wind up refuting the need for that behavior in any case.

Sounds pretty redundant to me.

Never said God uses punishment to "teach". This is your one and only chance at achieving heaven. We receive one punishment if we didn't do as we are suppose to. Punishment doesn't teach, it causes anger and resentment. The saying goes "you reap what you sow". There is no second chance or coming back like karma, you come back and are punished for the bad things you did in your previous life ect. This is our one and only life, our one and only chance to make it to the paradise next to our father.

But you have said that God placed us in a world that is filled with disease and animals that eat each other to "punish" us. That was your excuse for the dog-eat-dog nature of the world.

What in your mind does this God demand from people in order to make it into his Disney world?

Evidently being a good person alone is not sufficient. According to you behavior is not the key. The key is in believing in the Hebrew fables that claim that Jesus was the Christ and is the only possible way to get to the father, anything short of that is deemed failure.

So you God doesn't give a damn about behavior or righteousness at all. In fact, he's apparently totally prepared to forgive them hideous behaviors and accept anyone into his heavenly kingdom if all they do is bow down to the Hebrew fables and worship Jesus as the Christ. That's all that matters, evidently.

Moreover, if a sincerely decently loving human being who deeply cares about other people simply cannot believe in the Hebrew fables, then you God condemns them to death.

Hey, if that's your religious conviction, more power to you!

But that picture of a God is neither sane, nor inviting as far as I'm concerned.

You see Cowboy, I can't just pretend to believe in an utterly absurd religion in an attempt will free tickets to paradise. For one thing I'd truly need to PRETEND to believe in it because IMHO, it's utterly absurd and totally unbelievable.

SO what would you have me do? LIE to your God and pretend I can believe such outlandish stories which I most certainly do not believe?

As far as I can see your God isn't even asking people to love him. What he would be asking them to do is to believe in utterly absurd stories, and if they refuse to do so he will condemn them to death no matter how decent of a person they might be.

Like I say, Cowboy, Christianity lost touch with any sense of reality a very long time ago. It's no longer about sins and/or righteousness, but instead it has become solely about believing in dogma.

The only way way to the Christian God is to believe in the Hebrew dogma. There is no other way to get to that God. And being a good person or a bad person is totally irrelevant because even the most disgustingly horrible criminal is invited to believe in the dogma at the last minute of their life and be "Saved".

It entirely about worshiping dogma. Period. It has absolutely nothing at all to do with moral values or anything even remotely along those lines.

Because it condemns perfectly moral people if they reject the dogma.

It's not about a God, it's about a dogma.

James 2:14-26
14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Only in your eyes. If a child rejects their parent on earth, continuously stops any form of relationship from happening no matter how hard the parent works towards one, how is it the parents fault there is no relation? Human race turned away from God long long time ago, our father has given us a second chance to come back. Who's fault is it if someone doesn't accept that chance, that gift? How can it be God's fault? God never took that gift back, it's still on the table for anyone and everyone.

You just proved that you worship dogma in your previous post where you posted about a dozen numbered verses from dogma.

The human race never turned away from God. It's your dogma that makes that outrageous accusation Cowboy.

It's the dogma you worship that causes you to make theses kinds of accusations toward other people.

Obviously you are incapable of breaking free from that dogma. But for whatever it's worth, the dogma is a lie. Everyone who doesn't worship that dogma has not made a free will choice to turn against any God. Just like you have not made a free will choice to turn against Zeus. You simply don't don't believe that those fables represent the true creator of this universe.

Well duh?

Just switch the dogma around and you should be able to see that I don't believe that Yahweh represents the true creator of this universe anymore than you believe that Zeus does.

It's precisely the same situation. There is no difference. And there can be no difference. I don't believe that a supposedly all-wise supreme being could be as screwed up as the fables of Yahweh. You don't believe that a supposedly all-wise supreme being could be a screwed up as Zeus.

There is no difference at all. We both reject fables of Gods. You've just rejected one less fable than I have is all.

Correction, I reject every fable of God.