According to the Qur'an Jesus was the savior.

She said, 'My Lord, how shall I have a son, when no man has touched me? He said, 'Such is the way of ALLAH. HE creates what HE pleases. When HE decrees a thing HE says to it 'Be,' and it is;"—Qur'an, Surah 3:38-48

Muhammad also speaks of the resurrection of Jesus:

"Thereupon she pointed to him. They said, 'How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?' Jesus said, 'I am a servant of ALLAH. HE has given me the Book, and has made me a Prophet; 'And HE has made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and has enjoined upon me Prayer and almsgiving so long as I live; 'And HE has made me dutiful towards my mother, and has not made me arrogant and graceless; 'And peace was on me the day I was born, and peace will be on me the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised up to life again.' That was Jesus, son of Mary. This is a statement of the truth concerning which they entertain doubt."—Qur'an, Surah 19:30-35

In calling Jesus a messenger, Muhammad was also correct. He did not mean that Jesus was not the Messiah. Muhammad knew that one could be a messenger and not be a Messiah… but as The Messiah, one is also a messenger.

Jesus was both a messenger and The Messiah that Allah had promised! What is a Messiah? A Messiah is always known as "a Saviour… a liberator and a deliverer." God had promised to send one (Messiah) to pay the debt of sin for all mankind.

The Messiah!… God's gift to sinful man… The Saviour… The Liberator… Our Redeemer. The prophets of the Torah foretold of His coming. Muhammad and his Disciples revered Him… the Qur'an and the Bible reveal Him! The Messiah… The Saviour of the world! Neither the Qur'an nor the Bible speak of any other as being the Messiah!!!

Dear friend, that is the most profound truth! And it is truth that cannot be denied. Jesus is the one and only Messiah. He is the Saviour. He is the Messiah of the Muslims, the Jews, and the Gentiles. Millions throughout the world of every nation and creed accept Him as Saviour.

Many have followed false Messiahs and had their lives ended in death. They were sincere, but they were sincerely wrong. Had they only accepted the indisputable claim that Jesus is the Messiah, they would have found the peace that they were looking for, and the eternal life that God has promised to all who will accept Jesus as Messiah… the Saviour of the world. Yes, Isah Al Masih loves you! The Messiah that Muhammad wrote about… to forgive you and to be your Saviour… your Liberator… your Deliverer from sin. History tells us that He was crucified and died on a cross. History tells us that three days later there was an empty tomb. History, and hundreds of eye witnesses, tell us that He rose from the dead. But sadly many also reject the love and forgiveness God has offered in Jesus.

So...

the book they read from states that only ALLAH judges...

John 5:22
22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son

Obviously you just don't get it.

(I am suprised you did not show up to hijack this thread earlier).

this is not about the BIBLE or any of its oft quoted stuff.

such quotes have no meaning to a person that believes it not. Those groups I mentioned in the OP FOLLOW ANOTHER PROPHET... What part of that do you not get.

STOP HYJACKING MY THREAD WITH YOU PANDERINGS... they may help you have faith but they will not solve the stated problem.

BECAUSE TO A MUSLIM John is not the quoted one...

They get their quotes from another book... therefor YOUR dear quotes will have the same effect on their lives as a distant cloud...

It makes no sense to speak about laws having been "fulfilled". To fulfill a law would be to do what the law states. In order for Jesus to have fulfilled the law of killing heathens he would have needed to kill every heathen that exists. That's the only way that such a law could be "fulfilled".

Since Jesus did not go around killing heathens he could not be said to have "fulfilled" the law pertaining to the killing of heathens. The only thing he could possibly have done is change that law.

But it is written that Jesus did not come to change the laws. It is also written that he said that till heaven and earth pass not one jot nor one tittle shall pass from law.

Therefore, if God commended men to kill heathens, then this law must still be in effect today, since Jesus did not come to change the laws, and he most certainly did not "fulfill" that law.

The only way to fulfill that law would have been for Jesus himself to have killed all heathens, which he did not do. Therefore he did not fulfill that law and it would be totally false to claim that he had.

allah is a play on words for Yahweh. you will find cities throught the middle east that end in Yah. the poetic name of Yahweh "I AM" Blessings..Moshe

A little anger clouds one's vision...


Imrans 3:84
Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him."


Just one of many passages supporting the earlier writings. They (Muslims), just like the Christians are instructed to discern the truth.

Therefore? If?

You sound unsure of what you believe...

No anger... but tired of every thread in GRC becoming a roundey round of "jesus is... No he isn't".

"and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him." ... Him in this case being Allah... God not Jesus.

Belief that Jesus was a prophet is a pure and straight concept.

Belief that Jesus is God is not.

God is most Great.

The only way to fulfill a law is to fulfill it.

The law was that heathens should be killed.

Did Jesus go around killing heathens?

No, he didn't.

Therefore he did not fulfill that law.

What's unsure about that?

Sounds pretty certain to me.

"...if God commended men to kill heathens..."

Not to me.

The Biblical God did command men to kill heathens.

I place the "if" in front of that because I don't believe that the Bible represents God. So what I'm actually saying without having to print it all out is, "If the Bible were truly the word of God then God did indeed command men to kill heathens."

That is a certain.

You see, I'm not an atheist. I believe in "God". I just don't believe that the Bible has anything to do with God.

One problem with many religious people is that they have come to associated the word "God" solely with their specific beliefs and/or doctrines and traditions. So they fail to comprehend what other people are saying when other people give "God" a higher status than their limited religions allow for.

Christianity, and the Abrahamic religions in general do not own the Copyright or Patent on the concept of "God".

But clearly they think they do since as soon as a person speaks about God in a way that doesn't adhere to their specific beliefs, they are totally lost and confused.

Yes, the Biblical fables clearly have "their fictitious God character" directing and commanding men to kill heathens. That is indeed a certainty because it's right there in their fables.

I personally don't believe that any "Real God" ever did any such thing.

Thus when speaking to the biblical dogma when I say, "If God did this or that,...", what I really mean is "If the bible was true, then,...."

So you can change:


"...if God commended men to kill heathens..."

to:

"...if the bible is true God commended men to kill heathens..."

The only "uncertainty" implied by that is whether or not the Bible might be true.

Actually I have no uncertainty in that area. I'm absolutely certain that the Bible cannot be true. However, I realize that I'm taking to people who are under the belief that it is true. So this is why I'm using the "if".

In other words, I'm saying to them, IF God is like you say, then this must follow,.... and what typically follows in the case of biblical mythology is a blatant contradiction.

So there's no uncertainty on my part.

Just confusion on the part of people who think that their religion holds a copyright or patent on the concept of "God".

You need to understand that some people believe in a God that is far greater than the Biblical characterization of God. A God who is truly unlimited and not bound by all the petty flaws and human frailties that the Hebrews have restrained their image of God to have.

The biblical God is extremely limited in what he can do. He must adhere to precisely the character traits and commandments and directives that the Hebrews have assigned to him in their folklore.

And one of those character traits is that he had commended men to seek out and kill heathens. So that can never be taken away from the Hebrew God. It's carved in stone for eternity.

Even if some sort of argument could be made that God "Changed his mind" about this when Jesus was born, then you'd still have a God who change change in character, which these fables also claim is impossible.

So it appears to certainly be an un-salvageable collection of stories to me. I'm convinced with certainty that these fables can never be made consistent. Absolutely. There is no doubt about that in my mind at all.

being an ex muslim i have to correct cowboy..you may be misinformed, Muhammand never said Jesus was resurrected, in fact this is the main staple in Islamic belief concerning Jesus. In fact it states in the quran that the belief that Jesus was raised from the dead is the corruption in christian doctrine.
In Islam, it's the belief that Jesus' spirit was raised into heaven at the time of the alleged crucifiction and it was Simon that took his place.
The prophet Jesus probably did teach not to judge...but tell that to the thousands of lives that were cut short by the catholic church with charges of heresy and apostacy.

The laws are not permanent. They only hold power till something certain happens, a prophecy given to us. The laws such as the ones Jesus gave us. They will only hold power till all prophecies are fulfilled. After that, we will be given a new set of laws in the kingdom of God.

I was speaking about Christianity. The Christian gospels have Jesus saying that till heaven and earth pass, not one jot nor one tittle shall pass from law.

Since Jesus himself did not write out any laws, and jots and tittle refer to writings, then in the context of this religious mythology Jesus could have only been speaking of the written laws, which in this religion are supposedly written in the Torah.

So if we are to accept Jesus at his WORD according to these gospels then we must also accept that all of the laws of the Old Testament are still in effect and must remain in affect until heaven and earth pass.

There is nowhere in these gospels where Jesus claims to be changing any laws. On the contrary, the gospels have Jesus himself stating that he did not come to change the laws. So anyone who claims that he did, is actually in opposition with the teachings of Jesus according to these biblical stories.

If you're going to believe in them, then at least accept them for what they actually say.

Yes, accept them for what they actually say...


So, show me where in the Bible your claim below is written?

Certainly in the book of Deuteronomy for one. Not only does God command men to kill heathens but he says it's their duty to investigate any rumors about heathens, and if found to be true, the heathen should be killed, his wife, his children, even their livestock and pets should be killed. In fact, it even has God going as far as directing that the entire village from whence the heathen came should be burned to the ground and nothing should ever be built on that spot again.

I'm not going to look up the numbered chapters and verses for you. These things have been extensively discussed on these forums in the past.

There is no question that the God of the Old Testament had commanded men to kill heathens, sinners, unruly children, and so on and so forth. Where do you think Islam gets these ideas? It's the same general religion. The same basic folklore.

Also why do you think the Jews crucified Jesus in the first place?

The fact that the Biblical God had instructed them to kill heathens is the only reason the angry pharisees were able to incite the mob to have Jesus crucified for Blaspheme to begin with.

Why do you think the Jews were so anxious to stone Jesus to death for blaspheme even before the crucifixion? It's because this is what their original God had instructed them to do! Kill heathens and blasphemers.

You'd truly need to be in total denial of the history of the religion to not realize that the Jews were actually stoning sinners to death, and killing heathens because it's what their God had commanded them to do in the first place.

It's an obvious part of the religion.

You may as well deny the whole religion if you're going to deny that.

Psalm 111:8 They are steadfast for ever and ever,
done in faithfulness and uprightness.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Isaiah 40:8 The grass withers and the flowers fall,
but the word of our God stands forever."
--------------------------------------------------------------
Isaiah 44:26 who carries out the words of his servants
and fulfills the predictions of his messengers,
who says of Jerusalem, 'It shall be inhabited,'
of the towns of Judah, 'They shall be built,'
and of their ruins, 'I will restore them,'
------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away,
but my words will never pass away.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Luke 16:17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear
than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.
-----------------------------------------------------
Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth will pass away,
but my words will never pass away.

{I hope this helps someone, }


Question: "Why is "You shall not murder" in the Ten Commandments?"

Answer: Simply stated, the sixth of the Ten Commandments forbids
the unjustified taking of a human life.
However,
the commandment itself has a couple of interesting elements
that bear mentioning.

First and foremost,
different Bible translations give the appearance of different
meanings and there is potential for misunderstanding the actual
meaning of the verse.

Second,
man was never created for the act of murdering another
and as such there needs to be an explanation
for such a violent and final act towards another human being.

Third,
because of the translational challenge,
we need to understand the difference
between “murder” and “killing.”

And last but not least,
how does God view murder?

To God,
is not just physical in nature
but also the condition of one’s heart towards another.

There are two different Hebrew words (ratsakh, mut)
and two Greek words (phoneuo, apokteino) for “murder / killing”.
One means “to put to death,” and the other means “to murder.”
The latter one is the one prohibited by the Ten Commandments,
not the former.

In fact, ratsakh has a broader definition than the English
word “murder.”
Ratsakh also covers deaths due to carelessness
or neglect but is never used when describing the killing
during wartime.
That is why most modern translations render the sixth
commandment “You shall not murder”
rather than “You shall not kill.” However,
a very large issue can arise depending on which translation one studies.
The ever popular King James Version renders the verse
as “Thou shalt not kill,” therefore opening the door to misinterpreting the verse altogether.

If the intended meaning of “Thou shalt not kill” was just that—
no killing—it would render all of the God-endorsed bloodletting
done by nation of Israel as a violation of God’s own commandment (Deuteronomy 20).

But God does not break His own commandments,
so clearly the verse does not call for a complete moratorium
on the taking of another human life.

Why does man murder?
We know that we were created in God’s image (Genesis 1:27)
and as such we were made to live in harmony with God
and with our fellow man.

This harmony became impossible once sin entered
into the picture (Genesis 3). With sin came the propensity
of acting violently against one another.

Anger, jealousy, pride and hatred can fuel man’s evil bent
towards life-ending aggression.

The first recorded act of murder was when
Cain killed his brother Abel (Genesis 4:8).
From that moment on, taking the life of another
has been commonplace and in some circles of society, acceptable.

However, to God every life is important, and since God knew
that man was sinful and evil and had become “lawless,”
He enacted guidelines that would seek to modify man’s behavior
(1 John 3:4).

So, is there a difference between murder and killing?

First,
it is important to note that not all killing is wrong.
For instance,
the apostle Paul talks about the right of the state
to take the lives of evildoers (Romans 13:1-7).
This relates to what is commonly referred to as
capital punishment.
If one breaks a law and commits murder, in most countries
there are consequences for that action. In some cases
this requires the life of the perpetrator and a suitable means
of putting one to death is chosen and administered
(Matthew 5:21; Exodus 21:14).

Another instance of acceptable “killing” is
that which is done during times of war
and at the command of superiors.

There were quite a few instances
Scripture where God endorsed and allowed
the taking of other lives (1 Samuel 11; Judges 6–7).

And finally,
although far from acceptable,
manslaughter is yet another form of killing someone.

This unintentional act apparently happened so often in biblical
times that cities of refuge were designated for the manslayer to
seek refuge in (Exodus 21:13; Joshua 20).

Again,
it was never God’s intent to have to use
such a drastic measure as taking one’s life to rectify a situation.
So, God does make exceptions for the taking of another’s life as long as it lines up with His will.
However, premeditated murder of an individual is never God’s will.

What is murder in God’s eyes?

From the human perspective,
murder is the physical act of taking another’s life.

However, we also must consider that God defines murder
as any thought or feeling of deep seated hatred
or malice against another person.

In other words it is more than just a physical act
that constitutes murder to God who tells us
that “Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer,
you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him”
(1 John 3:15 ESV).

When we harbor hatred in our hearts for another,
we have committed the sin of murder in God’s eyes.
The disdain towards another person never has to be demonstrated
outwardly because God looks upon the heart for the truth
(1 Samuel 16:7; Matthew 15:19).

As Christians and as human beings we know that
unjustified killing is wrong.

God’s Word is very clear on this point: “You shall not murder.”
And what God says we must obey or we face the consequences on judgment day.

www.gotquestions.org