It's going to take something a lot more powerful

than "logic" for you to realize...your logic has failed

you.

It's going to take something a lot more powerful

than "logic" for you to realize...your logic has failed

you.

Every now and then you catch your own contradictions,

don't you, Kleisto?

Now...isn't that the "shover"

calling the shover a "shover".

You can't expect these people to comprehend the concept you are conveying here because it's clearly beyond their limit of comprehension.

If they could comprehend it even a little bit they would know that the biblical fables are necessarily false.



In your wet dreams perhaps. But anyone who reads these forums knows that what you say here is nothing more than extremely frustrated denial of the truth that I am indeed perfectly correct.

I don't need any 'bullets' because the scriptures are completely broken in their utter state of contradictions and fallacies. And they always have been nothing more than shattered glass.

Fact #1:

The very story of Adam and Eve is an oxymoron. If Adam and Eve were unaware of the knowledge of good and evil before having eaten the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, then they could have only performed this act in a state of pure innocence. They therefore could not be held responsible for having "fallen from grace" with intent to choose evil over good.

So the whole set of fables doesn't even get off the ground. It can't very well fly if it can't even get off the ground. It's dead in the water before it even starts. It's opening premise is an oxymoron.

Fact #2:

Observations of the real world confirm the fact that mankind cannot possibly be responsible for bringing what human's consider to be evil and imperfects into the world. It is now recognized that death, disease, all manner of natural disasters, as well as the fact that the world is naturally dog-eat-dog, has always been the case long before mankind ever appeared on the planet.

So not only does the story fail as an oxymoronic contradiction in its own right, but we now have knowledge that it's every bit as false as Greek Mythology. There are no gods on Mt. Olympus, and mankind cannot possible be responsible for being the things into the world that we consider to be 'evil'.

Both of these mythologies are equally false.

Now Let's Talk about the Wisdom, Logical Inconsistencies, Plausibility, and Evidence for or against the biblical story of the Great Flood



Fact #3:

There is no wisdom in the story of the Great Flood.

Any wise person will gladly tell you that to best manage anything, you should nip problems in the bud as soon as they are recognized. To allow them to grow and flourish until they have completely ruined your project is unwise.

Yet this is precisely what these biblical fables expect us to believe. They expect us to believe that an all-wise and all-powerful intervening God waited until things got totally out of control before intervening to execute his supposed law that the only reward for sin is death.

He's going to kill them all by drowning now for their sins. But why did he wait so long? If he's a God of his WORD and the only reward for sin is death, he should have been killing the sinners all along just as they were about to commit their sin. After all, this God supposedly knows what's in the hearts of men, so this God would know when a human is about to commit a sin and not turn back from that action. God could have just given individuals heart-attacks, strokes, or ever turned them into a pillar of salt if he so chose.

So his action to wait until the whole world has turned to sin would be unwise management of his human pets. And then he's going to intervene at that point.

Fact #4:

Saving Noah and his family from the Flood is a violation of the ideology that is put forth by these biblical tales that all men are sinners and that all sin is equal. If that were true then there would be no reason for God to save Noah and his family. So the story of the Great Flood flies in the face of these biblical premises and thus also represents a contradiction.

Fact #5:

It would be utterly absurd for an all-powerful God to orchestrate a flood that kills all his animals and plants just to rid the world of a few human sinners. Even a mortal man can offer a far better plan.

I'm a mortal man, and I suggest that if an all-powerful God wanted to rid the world of human sinners all he would need to do is make them sterile and they would be completely gone within a single human generation. So we are being asked to believe that God is not even as wise as a mere moral man? Just yet another indication that these fables are necessarily nothing more than false tales that constantly violate their own premises.

Fact #6:

We know know via scientific evidence from the Human Genome Project that the catastrophic flood told of in the Bible cannot have possibly taken place on planet Earth during the life span of civilized and sophisticated tool-using humans.

The story of the Great Flood states that there are cities involved. So this can't go back to the days of cavemen. In fact, Noah supposedly has the tools and knowledge of how to build an extremely huge cargo ship. Even if God gave him the blueprints Noah would have still had to have the technological know-how to build the Ark.

The Human Genome Project has mapped the human genome through fossil record clear back to the days when humans were still living in caves and did not have the capability of being anything as sophisticated as cities or Arks.

If there had been a Great Flood of the biblical proportions that event would have necessarily cause a major change in the record of the Human Genome. No such change is indicated. On the contrary just the opposite shows to be truth. The human genome did not undergo any abrupt change during the course of human 'civilized' history.

Therefore we do indeed have observational knowledge from the real world that proves that the biblical story of the Great Flood is necessarily nothing more than a fable.

So just like the story of Adam and Eve, the story of the Great Flood also falls on its own fallacies as well as being in direct conflict with observations of the real world.

Fact #7 & #8:

Neither the Egyptians, not the Canaanites can have been said to have rejected God. Both of these cultures supposedly worship gods. The very concept of a "false god" is an oxymoron and completely inapplicable in any case.

If a culture is attempting to worship their creator (i.e. a God), then that's what they are attempting to do. To claim that these cultures are rejecting God in favor of worshiping false idols is clearly an asinine idea. They would hardly be worshiping false idols if they knew they were false. That would be utterly stupid. However, if they are unaware that they are worshiping false idols and actually believe that they are worshiping God then they would be acting in innocence, and not via willful rebellion executed by Free Will choice.

So these biblical stories contain utterly nonsensical accusations about other cultures that any supposedly all-wise God would know better that to even remotely suggest. If these cultures had rebelliously turned away from God, they would not be purposeful defiant believes in the Biblical God. They would have needed to recognize that the Biblical God is indeed the one true creator and knowingly and willfully reject him. They could not be worshiping other "gods", and they couldn't even be atheists. They could only be willful defiant believes in the Biblical God

But that's not how the stories go. So once again these stories fall flat on their face as being totally incredible, and clearly not the word or knowledge from any supposedly all-wise God.

Fact #9:

The Christian claims that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb of God sent to pay for the sins of man flies in the face that the Biblical God is supposedly unchanging in character.

The biblical God kills sinners. Remember the Great Flood? He doesn't love the world so much that he's willing to give his only son to save it.

This violates the premise that the Biblical God is unchanging in character. Even when feeble arguments are given that this supposedly doesn't imply a change in character, but rather just a change in plans, it still represent an inconsistent God. A God who had changed his methods of dealing with mankind's sins over time. If he were going to offer his son to pay for the sins of mankind, why not just offer it in the Garden of Eden to Adam and Eve? They could have either accept Jesus as their savior, or defied God and the whole thing would have been over with right there and then.

This idea that God would try different things over periods of thousands of years only suggests that God is unsure of how to handle things and never had a consistent plan in the first place. And that violates the very premises of the biblical story thus once again exposing it's own fallacies, contradictions and flaws.

Fact #10:

Jesus didn't even agree with the moral teachings of the Old Testament God. Jesus rejected an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, and instead taught men to turn the other cheek.

Fact #11:

Jesus rejected the idea of judging others to be sinners an stoning them to death, and instead he taught men to forgive others their trespasses.

Fact #12:

Jesus also referred to the Torah as "Your Law" when speaking to the Pharisees that he called hypocrites. He didn't' refer to the Torah as "My Law" or even as "God's Law".

Fact #13:

The things that Jesus actually taught were far more in alignment with the spiritual teachings of Eastern Mysticism and the moral values of Mahayana Buddhism.

Fact #14:

Even the Bible has Pilot acquitting Jesus of the accusations having claimed to be God. So Pilot clearly didn't see Jesus as making that claim, and he supposedly interviewed him.

Fact #15:

Once it's recognized that Jesus was most likely a mortal man who was wrongfully accused of blaspheme, the entire New Testament loses all credibility. It can no longer be held up as the "Word of God", or any such thing. It's clearly just a bunch of hearsay rumors.

Fact #16:

Contrary to the gross misrepresentation by Christians. It's actually a lie to quote from the New Testament using the word like, "Jesus said,...". What they really mean is that some author of the New Testament claims that Jesus might have said something.

Not a single solitary WORD of the New Testament was written by Jesus. It's all nothing more than second or third party hearsay, or even worse yet, totally made up lies.

Who knows?

Fact #17:

Many of the wisest men in all of humanity have renounced the biblical fables as being nonsense. And many of them have indicated the same concerns that I put forth here.

If God had a message that was so important to the fate of humans why allow it to become contaminated and reduced to nothing more than hearsay fables? Why not just have Jesus himself write it down in crystal clear prose that would make Shakespeare's writings look like the work of a kindergarten child?

Surely such a task would be a snap for an all-wise, all-power, omniscient God?

But no, that's not what we have here. Not even close. All we have is conflicting and contradicting stories that make no sense.

A single bullet PP?

I think not. There are more than enough bullets to turn the bible into Swiss Cheese. Of course, there's no need to do that because this cannon of fables is already so full of holes that there's no need to even bother shooting at it.

Yet people are still running around using it to badger other people in the name of a God that doesn't have any more merit than Zeus.

I qualified my statement to be speaking of fanatics, not sane reasonable people.

I know that there are a lot of people who believe in the Bible in far more abstract way. They don't try to push it as being verbatim dogma.

In fact, I have much respect for such people.

They allow each person to have their own relationship with God and they respect the interpretations that other people have of the Bible as well as of other religious doctrines.

You don't need to be a fanatic to be a Christian. That's baloney.

In fact, I could potentially call myself a "Christian" in an abstract way. Because contrary to what you may think I do indeed believe that the Bible contains some truth. As do all accounts of human history.

However, since I recognize that the very term "Christ" implies that I believe that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb of the Old Testament God, etc., etc,. etc., I prefer to distance myself from the label of "Christian".

If someone were to ask me if I support "Christian Values" I would no. But if they were to ask me if I support the morals taught by Jesus I would say yes.

There's a huge difference.

GuuuLLy,Barney...Does Andy know you got that many bullets....Shhhhazam!!!

Society and Teachers like yourself, Abra,
Are brain-washing these precious children into crossing
these boundaries...
when you can't insure their mental well-being
after they've taken the plunge.

It is also hard to live with shame, Abracadabra.

"When children come into this world

they need morals not titles."

I teach no one to do anything. All I do is point out the lies and falsehoods in ancient fables that are being proselytized as the "Word of God" and used as a means to spew hatred toward people who do not share the views of those who worship these fables.

I do not encourage or teach anyone to do anything except follow their heart with the utmost sincerity.

You cannot be true to a God until you can first be true to yourself. And once you are true to yourself you are automatically true to God.

You would have me lie to people in the name of God. You would have me tell them that the Bible makes sense and is supportable from a rational point of view. But that would be a lie. It's not.

If TRUTH isn't good enough for you or your vision of "God", then you need to reevaluate what it is that you think represents "God".

I stand for TRUTH, HONESTY, and SINCERITY.

And that's all I speak of.

Exactly!

And this is why they should be taught truth instead of being brainwashed to believing in ancient superstitious religious bigotries.

It kind of amusing to see Atheist try in vain to disprove the bible.You have had people for thousands of years spending their entire lives wrapped up in the bible trying to find some sort of error to show the world that it is false.

I can't even begin to imagine the amount of books written related to Christianity and how many new books ever year are published every year.How many books are published every year trying to disprove the bible?One,three?


I think if I was a Atheist I wouldn't even bother trying to tackle Christianity.Kings,scientist,professors,and everyone else you can think of didn't make the least bit of difference in thousands of years of trying.You really think you are going to do any better?Try outsmarting these guys.


http://www.biblebc.com/Ask_A_Question/7questions/bible_contradictions.htm



Sigmund Freud
(1856-1939)

Freud was raised in a world steeped in religious belief. His home was a small town (Freiberg, Morovia) where — like so many towns in the nineteenth century in Eastern Europe — a community of Jews lived among a majority of Catholics. His interpretation of God was based on the Bible being written by man, not as we know, dictated by God.
Sigmund died of cancer of the jaw, heart failure, and an overdose of morphine administered by his doctor (assisted suicide)


Karl Marx
(1818-1883)


Marx believed that religion could only be abolished when man finally realized that he had control over the world, and that man would have to take complete control of the economy of the world. This was the foundation of Communism. And the ultimate goal of economic control (Communism), was the abolition of religious belief. Karl knew that all religion had to go, because he knew that Christianity, and Judaism both instilled the rights of private ownership, and self-protection, and individualism, which were completely contrary to Communism.
Carl died never getting to see just what damnable use his ideas were put to by the likes of Lenin, Stalin and Mao! Carl would be "proud" of the almost 100 million deaths directly resulting from his rejection of God's laws!


Diocletian
A.D. 303


The emperor Diocletian began one of the most terrible persecutions of Christianity in history. One target of his violence was the Bible itself. He ordered that every copy of the Bible be confiscated and burned. Only 25 years later, Constantine (the very next emperor of Rome) ordered that 50 copies of the Scriptures be prepared and paid for by the Roman Government.

In spite of Diocletian's efforts, there were plenty of Bibles around to make more copies and see the world completely turned upside-down!


Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900)


"God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we, murderers of all murderers, console ourselves? That which was the holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet possessed has bled to death under our knives. Who will wipe this blood off us? With what water could we purify ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we need to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we not ourselves become gods simply to be worthy of it?"
Nietzsche died insane, in an asylum, of syphilis — signing his last letters “the Crucified One.” He was adored by the Nazis as their semi-official philosopher.



François Marie Arouet Voltaire
(1694-1778)


Voltaire boasted that within one hundred years of his time the Bible would be non-existent, replaced by his own work.
The Christian physician who attended Voltaire during his last illness said, "When I compare the death of a righteous man, which is like the close of a beautiful day, with that of Voltaire, I see the difference between bright, serene weather and a black thunderstorm. It was my lot that this man should die under my hands. Often did I tell him the truth. ’Yes, my friend,’ he would often say to me, ’you are the only one who has given me good advice. Had I but followed it I would not be in the horrible condition in which I now am. I have swallowed nothing but smoke. I have intoxicated myself with the incense that turned my head. You can do nothing for me. Send me a mad doctor! Have compassion on me-I am mad!’ The physician goes on to say: "I cannot think of it without shuddering. As soon as he saw that all the means he had employed to increase his strength had just the opposite effect, death was constantly before his eyes. From this moment, madness took possession of his soul. He expired under the torments of the furies." At another time his doctor quoted Voltaire as saying: "I am abandoned by God and man! I will give you half of what I am worth if you will give me six months’ life. Then I shall go to hell; and you will go with me. O Christ! O Jesus Christ!"
Fifty years after his death, the Geneva Bible Society bought the house and printing press of Voltaire and printed stacks of Bibles in his living room! Voltaire has become an historical footnote while the Bible continues to increase in every part of the world.

Interesting quote, with a lot of punch.

It just does not jive with the 249 million atheists in Western Europe and with the 448 million atheists in Eastern Europe today, in which areas even 150 years ago there were practically 0 percent atheists. Much less than 1 percent of the population.

Those atheists must have turned away from Christianity and the Bible for a reason. I venture to say that they turned away from the bible because they saw the validity of the proof that disproved the bible.

If you say no, these hundreds of millions of people turned away from the two thousand years old christian religious dominance in Europe because this was the devil's work, then I will -- I am sorry -- just laugh at you, with all other respect left intact.

not

My logic is right on.

I will be the righteous and rewarded one come the end.

that is all good

since religion is not the greatest way to teach morality anyway.

Interesting!!!

Interesting!!!

I am not atheist or so I have been told by atheists. But I do have issues with man made religions that are unhealthy for human growth and interaction.

Interesting!

If you have any compassion at all for our youth, then quite teaching them to be hateful toward others in the name of Jesus Christ.

That's disgusting.

And it's an absolute lie on your behalf that my philosophies are destroying our kids.

If children were to truly follow my philosophies they would become the most honorable people imaginable.

Moreover they would have total respect for TRUTH.

You're teaching children to support religious lies.

It's a LIE to teach anyone that the Bible is the "Word of God".

You don't know that. You can't know that.

All you know is that the authors of those fables made the claim that they were speaking for God. But you have no clue if those people were speaking the truth or not.

So if you teach any child, that the Bible is the "Word of God" or that Jesus is the only begotten son of God who died to pay for the sins of that child, they you have lied to that child.

Because you can't possible know if any of that nonsense is true.

Why raise children on lies?

Tell them the TRUTH!

The biblical cannon is a collection of stories written by an ancient highly patriarchal society that created a male-image of a god. And that's all you can truly know about those writings.

That's would be the TRUTH.

Teach children the TRUTH.

Until you can do that, don't speak to me about having any compassion for our youth. You can't have compassion for people that you so readily lie to at such a young and impressionable age too boot!

Tell them the TRUTH!

And the TRUTH is that there are many WORLD religions, and that many people are even secular atheist, and NO HUMAN BEING knows which of these views might be true, if any.

That would be the only real TRUTH.

Either teach that TRUTH, or confess that you LIE to children.