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Topic: The NO BIBLE ALLOWED Thread can you handle it?
CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Fri 05/13/11 09:19 PM
Not threatening anyone. If God isn't real, what is there to feel threatened about? I can not threaten you with having the boogeyman sneak in your door tonight because you won't listen to me. Again, if God isn't real, what would there be to feel threatened about? the threat does not arise because someone don't believe that God is real..the threat comes from those that do believe that God is real, real or not people have killed in the name of What would the threat accomplish? The threat would be "forcing" someone to believe. But you would have to believe in the first place for this "forcing" to be able to take place. So wouldn't make much sense. The person already believes, what would they be "forced" into? Or threatened into? Because ok again, if someone doesn't believe, they will not put much credit to the "threat". Cause they feel it's fairy tails anyways. And again if someone believes in God, what would they be being "forced" or "threatened" into? as I said the threat is not from God...it's from the believers that are using their belief in God to deliver threats Still, what would the threat accomplish? Would only accomplish pushing people away. No one, that I know, goes around straight out telling none believers they will burn for not believing, or anything a long those lines. Yes it has been mentioned on this forum in particular, because it has come up in certain different discussion. But it's not posted to threaten anyone. Would you rather be ignorant of it? Or would you rather be able to make a choice if you wish to worship God or not? Just merely enlightening people with this knowledge of certain possible outcomes of certain actions. Again, no threats. Pure enlightenment and informing. you keep asking what would a threat accomplish...you keep looking in the wrong direction towards the receiver of the threat which is generally classified as being the victim....it's generally the deliver of the threat that gets some form of sadistic pleasure from the delivery of the threats Yes, but there is generally a reason for the threat. If the threat won't accomplish anything, why would one do it? There IS a reason for the threat, it's called CONTROL. Plain and simple. And how can you control anyone when they see it having no more merit then merry had a little lamb? Those people aren't controlled obviously. It's those that are foolish enough to buy into it, that are the controlled ones. How can someone be "controlled" when they are willingly doing it and or willingly not doing something?

Kleisto Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5704	Fri 05/13/11 09:26 PM
Not threatening anyone. If God isn't real, what is there to feel threatened about? I can not threaten you with having the boogeyman sneak in your door tonight because you won't listen to me. Again, if God isn't real, what would there be to feel threatened about? the threat does not arise because someone don't believe that God is real..the threat comes from those that do believe that God is real, real or not people have killed in the name of What would the threat accomplish? The threat would be "forcing" someone to believe. But you would have to believe in the first place for this "forcing" to be able to take place. So wouldn't make much sense. The person already believes, what would they be "forced" into? Or threatened into? Because ok again, if someone doesn't believe, they will not put much credit to the "threat". Cause they feel it's fairy tails anyways. And again if someone believes in God, what would they be being "forced" or "threatened" into? as I said the threat is not from God...it's from the believers that are using their belief in God to deliver threats Still, what would the threat accomplish? Would only accomplish pushing people away. No one, that I know, goes around straight out telling none believers they will burn for not believing, or anything a long those lines. Yes it has been mentioned on this forum in particular, because it has come up in certain different discussion. But it's not posted to threaten anyone. Would you rather be ignorant of it? Or would you rather be able to make a choice if you wish to worship God or not? Just merely enlightening people with this knowledge of certain possible outcomes of certain actions. Again, no threats. Pure enlightenment and informing. you keep asking what would a threat accomplish...you keep looking in the wrong direction towards the receiver of the threat which is generally classified as being the victim....it's generally the deliver of the threat that gets some form of sadistic pleasure from the delivery of the threats Yes, but there is generally a reason for the threat. If the threat won't accomplish anything, why would one do it? There IS a reason for the threat, it's called CONTROL. Plain and simple. And how can you control anyone when they see it having no more merit then merry had a little lamb? Those people aren't controlled obviously. It's those that are foolish enough to buy into it, that are the controlled ones. How can someone be "controlled" when they are willingly doing it and or willingly not doing something? Because even if it's willingly, what happens is, their thoughts become yours. You think you're thinking your own thoughts, but you're really not. You don't know much about how mind control works do you?

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Fri 05/13/11 09:29 PM
Not threatening anyone. If God isn't real, what is there to feel threatened about? I can not threaten you with having the boogeyman sneak in your door tonight because you won't listen to me. Again, if God isn't real, what would there be to feel threatened about? the threat does not arise because someone don't believe that God is real..the threat comes from those that do believe that God is real, real or not people have killed in the name of What would the threat accomplish? The threat would be "forcing" someone to believe. But you would have to believe in the first place for this "forcing" to be able to take place. So wouldn't make much sense. The person already believes, what would they be "forced" into? Or threatened into? Because ok again, if someone doesn't believe, they will not put much credit to the "threat". Cause they feel it's fairy tails anyways. And again if someone believes in God, what would they be being "forced" or "threatened" into? as I said the threat is not from God...it's from the believers that are using their belief in God to deliver threats Still, what would the threat accomplish? Would only accomplish pushing people away. No one, that I know, goes around straight out telling none believers they will burn for not believing, or anything a long those lines. Yes it has been mentioned on this forum in particular, because it has come up in certain different discussion. But it's not posted to threaten anyone. Would you rather be ignorant of it? Or would you rather be able to make a choice if you wish to worship God or not? Just merely enlightening people with this knowledge of certain possible outcomes of certain actions. Again, no threats. Pure enlightenment and informing. you keep asking what would a threat accomplish...you keep looking in the wrong direction towards the receiver of the threat which is generally classified as being the victim....it's generally the deliver of the threat that gets some form of sadistic pleasure from the delivery of the threats Yes, but there is generally a reason for the threat. If the threat won't accomplish anything, why would one do it? There IS a reason for the threat, it's called CONTROL. Plain and simple. And how can you control anyone when they see it having no more merit then merry had a little lamb? Those people aren't controlled obviously. It's those that are foolish enough to buy into it, that are the controlled ones. How can someone be "controlled" when they are willingly doing it and or willingly not doing something? Because even if it's willingly, what happens is, their thoughts become yours. You think you're thinking your own thoughts, but you're really not. You don't know much about how mind control works do you? Sure I do. But one has to give merit to what is said before it would have any power on them at all. Like right now, I can tell you "better not go to bed till tomorrow night, if you go to bed tonight, you're going to die in your sleep" And would you believe me if I said something as such? Would you be scared to go to sleep? No, you would laugh and head off to bed.

Kleisto Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5704	Fri 05/13/11 09:33 PM
Not threatening anyone. If God isn't real, what is there to feel threatened about? I can not threaten you with having the boogeyman sneak in your door tonight because you won't listen to me. Again, if God isn't real, what would there be to feel threatened about? the threat does not arise because someone don't believe that God is real..the threat comes from those that do believe that God is real, real or not people have killed in the name of What would the threat accomplish? The threat would be "forcing" someone to believe. But you would have to believe in the first place for this "forcing" to be able to take place. So wouldn't make much sense. The person already believes, what would they be "forced" into? Or threatened into? Because ok again, if someone doesn't believe, they will not put much credit to the "threat". Cause they feel it's fairy tails anyways. And again if someone believes in God, what would they be being "forced" or "threatened" into? as I said the threat is not from God...it's from the believers that are using their belief in God to deliver threats Still, what would the threat accomplish? Would only accomplish pushing people away. No one, that I know, goes around straight out telling none believers they will burn for not believing, or anything a long those lines. Yes it has been mentioned on this forum in particular, because it has come up in certain different discussion. But it's not posted to threaten anyone. Would you rather be ignorant of it? Or would you rather be able to make a choice if you wish to worship God or not? Just merely enlightening people with this knowledge of certain possible outcomes of certain actions. Again, no threats. Pure enlightenment and informing. you keep asking what would a threat accomplish...you keep looking in the wrong direction towards the receiver of the threat which is generally classified as being the victim....it's generally the deliver of the threat that gets some form of sadistic pleasure from the delivery of the threats Yes, but there is generally a reason for the threat. If the threat won't accomplish anything, why would one do it? There IS a reason for the threat, it's called CONTROL. Plain and simple. And how can you control anyone when they see it having no more merit then merry had a little lamb? Those people aren't controlled obviously. It's those that are foolish enough to buy into it, that are the controlled ones. How can someone be "controlled" when they are willingly doing it and or willingly not doing something? Because even if it's willingly, what happens is, their thoughts become yours. You think you're thinking your own thoughts, but you're really not. You don't know much about how mind control works do you? Sure I do. But one has to give merit to what is said before it would have any power on them at all. Like right now, I can tell you "better not go to bed till tomorrow night, if you go to bed tonight, you're going to die in your sleep" And would you believe me if I said something as such? Would you be scared to go to sleep? No, you would laugh and head off to bed. This is the whole thing though, those who believe in what they are told as far as religion, be it Christianity, Islam, or any other sect, are doing just this. You give them the power over you, when you accept it as true.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Fri 05/13/11 09:39 PM
Not threatening anyone. If God isn't real, what is there to feel threatened about? I can not threaten you with having the boogeyman sneak in your door tonight because you won't listen to me. Again, if God isn't real, what would there be to feel threatened about? the threat does not arise because someone don't believe that God is real..the threat comes from those that do believe that God is real, real or not people have killed in the name of What would the threat accomplish? The threat would be "forcing" someone to believe. But you would have to believe in the first place for this "forcing" to be able to take place. So wouldn't make much sense. The person already believes, what would they be "forced" into? Or threatened into? Because ok again, if someone doesn't believe, they will not put much credit to the "threat". Cause they feel it's fairy tails anyways. And again if someone believes in God, what would they be being "forced" or "threatened" into? as I said the threat is not from God...it's from the believers that are using their belief in God to deliver threats Still, what would the threat accomplish? Would only accomplish pushing people away. No one, that I know, goes around straight out telling none believers they will burn for not believing, or anything a long those lines. Yes it has been mentioned on this forum in particular, because it has come up in certain different discussion. But it's not posted to threaten anyone. Would you rather be ignorant of it? Or would you rather be able to make a choice if you wish to worship God or not? Just merely enlightening people with this knowledge of certain possible outcomes of certain actions. Again, no threats. Pure enlightenment and informing. you keep asking what would a threat accomplish...you keep looking in the wrong direction towards the receiver of the threat which is generally classified as being the victim....it's generally the deliver of the threat that gets some form of sadistic pleasure from the delivery of the threats Yes, but there is generally a reason for the threat. If the threat won't accomplish anything, why would one do it? There IS a reason for the threat, it's called CONTROL. Plain and simple. And how can you control anyone when they see it having no more merit then merry had a little lamb? Those people aren't controlled obviously. It's those that are foolish enough to buy into it, that are the controlled ones. How can someone be "controlled" when they are willingly doing it and or willingly not doing something? Because even if it's willingly, what happens is, their thoughts become yours. You think you're thinking your own thoughts, but you're really not. You don't know much about how mind control works do you? Sure I do. But one has to give merit to what is said before it would have any power on them at all. Like right now, I can tell you "better not go to bed till tomorrow night, if you go to bed tonight, you're going to die in your sleep" And would you believe me if I said something as such? Would you be scared to go to sleep? No, you would laugh and head off to bed. This is the whole thing though, those who believe in what they are told as far as religion, be it Christianity, Islam, or any other sect, are doing just this. You give them the power over you, when you accept it as true. It's called being submissive. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with doing for other's before oneself? What's wrong with assuring other's are provided for before oneself? That is all Christianity teaches. Teaches us not to judge other's, with this right here there will never be someone superior to another. For we all have fallen short at one time or other, no one's better then the other. And if you want to talk about something controlling someone, hmmm let's look at this. Laws of the land - They control what you can and can not do according to their standards. Your child - You work endlessly to try to provide a great life for that child. You spend your time working to provide money and spend your other time taking care of the child and or making sure the child is taken care of. And so on and so on. We all have things "control" us if you wish to call it that. What is so wrong about being "controlled" into loving other people?

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Fri 05/13/11 09:39 PM Edited by MorningSong on Fri 05/13/11 10:21 PM


Kleisto Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5704	Fri 05/13/11 09:46 PM Edited by Kleisto on Fri 05/13/11 09:46 PM
Not threatening anyone. If God isn't real, what is there to feel threatened about? I can not threaten you with having the boogeyman sneak in your door tonight because you won't listen to me. Again, if God isn't real, what would there be to feel threatened about? the threat does not arise because someone don't believe that God is real..the threat comes from those that do believe that God is real, real or not people have killed in the name of What would the threat accomplish? The threat would be "forcing" someone to believe. But you would have to believe in the first place for this "forcing" to be able to take place. So wouldn't make much sense. The person already believes, what would they be "forced" into? Or threatened into? Because ok again, if someone doesn't believe, they will not put much credit to the "threat". Cause they feel it's fairy tails anyways. And again if someone believes in God, what would they be being "forced" or "threatened" into? as I said the threat is not from God...it's from the believers that are using their belief in God to deliver threats Still, what would the threat accomplish? Would only accomplish pushing people away. No one, that I know, goes around straight out telling none believers they will burn for not believing, or anything a long those lines. Yes it has been mentioned on this forum in particular, because it has come up in certain different discussion. But it's not posted to threaten anyone. Would you rather be ignorant of it? Or would you rather be able to make a choice if you wish to worship God or not? Just merely enlightening people with this knowledge of certain possible outcomes of certain actions. Again, no threats. Pure enlightenment and informing. you keep asking what would a threat accomplish...you keep looking in the wrong direction towards the receiver of the threat which is generally classified as being the victim....it's generally the deliver of the threat that gets some form of sadistic pleasure from the delivery of the threats Yes, but there is generally a reason for the threat. If the threat won't accomplish anything, why would one do it? There IS a reason for the threat, it's called CONTROL. Plain and simple. And how can you control anyone when they see it having no more merit then merry had a little lamb? Those people aren't controlled obviously. It's those that are foolish enough to buy into it, that are the controlled ones. How can someone be "controlled" when they are willingly doing it and or willingly not doing something? Because even if it's willingly, what happens is, their thoughts become yours. You think you're thinking your own thoughts, but you're really not. You don't know much about how mind control works do you? Sure I do. But one has to give merit to what is said before it would have any power on them at all. Like right now, I can tell you "better not go to bed till tomorrow night, if you go to bed tonight, you're going to die in your sleep" And would you believe me if I said something as such? Would you be scared to go to sleep? No, you would laugh and head off to bed. This is the whole thing though, those who believe in what they are told as far as religion, be it Christianity, Islam, or any other sect, are doing just this. You give them the power over you, when you accept it as true. It's called being submissive. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with doing for other's before oneself? What's wrong with assuring other's are provided for before oneself? That is all Christianity teaches. Teaches us not to judge other's, with this right here there will never be someone superior to another. For we all have fallen short at one time or other, no one's better then the other. And if you want to talk about something controlling someone, hmmm let's look at this. Laws of the land - They control what you can and can not do according to their standards. Your child - You work endlessly to try to provide a great life for that child. You spend your time working to provide money and spend your other time taking care of the child and or making sure the child is taken care of. And so on and so on. We all have things "control" us if you wish to call it that. What is so wrong about being "controlled" into loving other people? To love others, that's fine. But here's the problem. Religion twists and manipulates, and in fact even limits what love can be and what love can't be. Like homosexual love is wrong according to it. If you wanna love people, fine go for it. The danger is when you have a belief system defining it for you. That's what's wrong about it. Secondly, you mention government. Well let's think about this, religion and government have a very similar setup. That is to say. Do as I say whether you like it or not, or you will suffer. When have you known a government to work in the best interests in the people and not themselves instead? Really stop and think about that.

RKISIT Joined Tue 01/08/08 Posts: 16721	Fri 05/13/11 09:50 PM Edited by RKISIT on Fri 05/13/11 09:52 PM
when a man/woman tells me he/she found GOD, he was inside of him/her the whole time and didnt know it,i tell him/her "you must have one loose sphincter/hole"

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Fri 05/13/11 09:51 PM
Not threatening anyone. If God isn't real, what is there to feel threatened about? I can not threaten you with having the boogeyman sneak in your door tonight because you won't listen to me. Again, if God isn't real, what would there be to feel threatened about? the threat does not arise because someone don't believe that God is real..the threat comes from those that do believe that God is real, real or not people have killed in the name of What would the threat accomplish? The threat would be "forcing" someone to believe. But you would have to believe in the first place for this "forcing" to be able to take place. So wouldn't make much sense. The person already believes, what would they be "forced" into? Or threatened into? Because ok again, if someone doesn't believe, they will not put much credit to the "threat". Cause they feel it's fairy tails anyways. And again if someone believes in God, what would they be being "forced" or "threatened" into? as I said the threat is not from God...it's from the believers that are using their belief in God to deliver threats Still, what would the threat accomplish? Would only accomplish pushing people away. No one, that I know, goes around straight out telling none believers they will burn for not believing, or anything a long those lines. Yes it has been mentioned on this forum in particular, because it has come up in certain different discussion. But it's not posted to threaten anyone. Would you rather be ignorant of it? Or would you rather be able to make a choice if you wish to worship God or not? Just merely enlightening people with this knowledge of certain possible outcomes of certain actions. Again, no threats. Pure enlightenment and informing. you keep asking what would a threat accomplish...you keep looking in the wrong direction towards the receiver of the threat which is generally classified as being the victim....it's generally the deliver of the threat that gets some form of sadistic pleasure from the delivery of the threats Yes, but there is generally a reason for the threat. If the threat won't accomplish anything, why would one do it? There IS a reason for the threat, it's called CONTROL. Plain and simple. And how can you control anyone when they see it having no more merit then merry had a little lamb? Those people aren't controlled obviously. It's those that are foolish enough to buy into it, that are the controlled ones. How can someone be "controlled" when they are willingly doing it and or willingly not doing something? Because even if it's willingly, what happens is, their thoughts become yours. You think you're thinking your own thoughts, but you're really not. You don't know much about how mind control works do you? Sure I do. But one has to give merit to what is said before it would have any power on them at all. Like right now, I can tell you "better not go to bed till tomorrow night, if you go to bed tonight, you're going to die in your sleep" And would you believe me if I said something as such? Would you be scared to go to sleep? No, you would laugh and head off to bed. This is the whole thing though, those who believe in what they are told as far as religion, be it Christianity, Islam, or any other sect, are doing just this. You give them the power over you, when you accept it as true. It's called being submissive. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with doing for other's before oneself? What's wrong with assuring other's are provided for before oneself? That is all Christianity teaches. Teaches us not to judge other's, with this right here there will never be someone superior to another. For we all have fallen short at one time or other, no one's better then the other. And if you want to talk about something controlling someone, hmmm let's look at this. Laws of the land - They control what you can and can not do according to their standards. Your child - You work endlessly to try to provide a great life for that child. You spend your time working to provide money and spend your other time taking care of the child and or making sure the child is taken care of. And so on and so on. We all have things "control" us if you wish to call it that. What is so wrong about being "controlled" into loving other people? To love others, that's fine. But here's the problem. Religion twists and manipulates, and in fact even limits what love can be and what love can't be. Like homosexual love is wrong according to it. If you wanna love people, fine go for it. The danger is when you have a belief system defining it for you. That's what's wrong about it. Secondly, you mention government. Well let's think about this, religion and government have a very similar setup. That is to say. Do as I say whether you like it or not, or you will suffer. When have you known a government to work in the best interests in the people and not themselves instead? Really stop and think about that. Homosexuality and love have almost nothing to do with one another. Homosexuality is one that has sex with the same gender. Just because one loves another, that does not mean that someone should have sex with the one they love. I love everybody, weather they are male or female, makes no never mind. Loving someone has no limit to gender and is not directly associated with sexual behaviors. Yes of course you are to love the one you have a sexual relationship with eg., your married spouse. Sex is for reproduction, for populating the world. A male and a male can not do this, a woman and a woman can not do this. There sex is purely for physical pleasure. There are much more and far greater and sincere ways to express one's love for another.

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Fri 05/13/11 09:59 PM Edited by MorningSong on Fri 05/13/11 10:00 PM
Not threatening anyone. If God isn't real, what is there to feel threatened about? I can not threaten you with having the boogeyman sneak in your door tonight because you won't listen to me. Again, if God isn't real, what would there be to feel threatened about? the threat does not arise because someone don't believe that God is real..the threat comes from those that do believe that God is real, real or not people have killed in the name of What would the threat accomplish? The threat would be "forcing" someone to believe. But you would have to believe in the first place for this "forcing" to be able to take place. So wouldn't make much sense. The person already believes, what would they be "forced" into? Or threatened into? Because ok again, if someone doesn't believe, they will not put much credit to the "threat". Cause they feel it's fairy tails anyways. And again if someone believes in God, what would they be being "forced" or "threatened" into? as I said the threat is not from God...it's from the believers that are using their belief in God to deliver threats Still, what would the threat accomplish? Would only accomplish pushing people away. No one, that I know, goes around straight out telling none believers they will burn for not believing, or anything a long those lines. Yes it has been mentioned on this forum in particular, because it has come up in certain different discussion. But it's not posted to threaten anyone. Would you rather be ignorant of it? Or would you rather be able to make a choice if you wish to worship God or not? Just merely enlightening people with this knowledge of certain possible outcomes of certain actions. Again, no threats. Pure enlightenment and informing. you keep asking what would a threat accomplish...you keep looking in the wrong direction towards the receiver of the threat which is generally classified as being the victim....it's generally the deliver of the threat that gets some form of sadistic pleasure from the delivery of the threats Yes, but there is generally a reason for the threat. If the threat won't accomplish anything, why would one do it? There IS a reason for the threat, it's called CONTROL. Plain and simple. And how can you control anyone when they see it having no more merit then merry had a little lamb? Those people aren't controlled obviously. It's those that are foolish enough to buy into it, that are the controlled ones. How can someone be "controlled" when they are willingly doing it and or willingly not doing something? Because even if it's willingly, what happens is, their thoughts become yours. You think you're thinking your own thoughts, but you're really not. You don't know much about how mind control works do you? Sure I do. But one has to give merit to what is said before it would have any power on them at all. Like right now, I can tell you "better not go to bed till tomorrow night, if you go to bed tonight, you're going to die in your sleep" And would you believe me if I said something as such? Would you be scared to go to sleep? No, you would laugh and head off to bed. This is the whole thing though, those who believe in what they are told as far as religion, be it Christianity, Islam, or any other sect, are doing just this. You give them the power over you, when you accept it as true. It's called being submissive. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with doing for other's before oneself? What's wrong with assuring other's are provided for before oneself? That is all Christianity teaches. Teaches us not to judge other's, with this right here there will never be someone superior to another. For we all have fallen short at one time or other, no one's better then the other. And if you want to talk about something controlling someone, hmmm let's look at this. Laws of the land - They control what you can and can not do according to their standards. Your child - You work endlessly to try to provide a great life for that child. You spend your time working to provide money and spend your other time taking care of the child and or making sure the child is taken care of. And so on and so on. We all have things "control" us if you wish to call it that. What is so wrong about being "controlled" into loving other people? To love others, that's fine. But here's the problem. Religion twists and manipulates, and in fact even limits what love can be and what love can't be. Like homosexual love is wrong according to it. If you wanna love people, fine go for it. The danger is when you have a belief system defining it for you. That's what's wrong about it. Secondly, you mention government. Well let's think about this, religion and government have a very similar setup. That is to say. Do as I say whether you like it or not, or you will suffer. When have you known a government to work in the best interests in the people and not themselves instead? Really stop and think about that. yes , religion of itself can become controlling .... and that is not what God wants with us in the first place... He wants relationship, not some religious experience... that is why a person has to come to God when they are ready and willing....not when someone is beating them over the head with it.... or constantly badgering them into it.... and calling it merely having a "discussion".

Kleisto Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5704	Fri 05/13/11 10:00 PM Edited by Kleisto on Fri 05/13/11 10:01 PM
Not threatening anyone. If God isn't real, what is there to feel threatened about? I can not threaten you with having the boogeyman sneak in your door tonight because you won't listen to me. Again, if God isn't real, what would there be to feel threatened about? the threat does not arise because someone don't believe that God is real..the threat comes from those that do believe that God is real, real or not people have killed in the name of What would the threat accomplish? The threat would be "forcing" someone to believe. But you would have to believe in the first place for this "forcing" to be able to take place. So wouldn't make much sense. The person already believes, what would they be "forced" into? Or threatened into? Because ok again, if someone doesn't believe, they will not put much credit to the "threat". Cause they feel it's fairy tails anyways. And again if someone believes in God, what would they be being "forced" or "threatened" into? as I said the threat is not from God...it's from the believers that are using their belief in God to deliver threats Still, what would the threat accomplish? Would only accomplish pushing people away. No one, that I know, goes around straight out telling none believers they will burn for not believing, or anything a long those lines. Yes it has been mentioned on this forum in particular, because it has come up in certain different discussion. But it's not posted to threaten anyone. Would you rather be ignorant of it? Or would you rather be able to make a choice if you wish to worship God or not? Just merely enlightening people with this knowledge of certain possible outcomes of certain actions. Again, no threats. Pure enlightenment and informing. you keep asking what would a threat accomplish...you keep looking in the wrong direction towards the receiver of the threat which is generally classified as being the victim....it's generally the deliver of the threat that gets some form of sadistic pleasure from the delivery of the threats Yes, but there is generally a reason for the threat. If the threat won't accomplish anything, why would one do it? There IS a reason for the threat, it's called CONTROL. Plain and simple. And how can you control anyone when they see it having no more merit then merry had a little lamb? Those people aren't controlled obviously. It's those that are foolish enough to buy into it, that are the controlled ones. How can someone be "controlled" when they are willingly doing it and or willingly not doing something? Because even if it's willingly, what happens is, their thoughts become yours. You think you're thinking your own thoughts, but you're really not. You don't know much about how mind control works do you? Sure I do. But one has to give merit to what is said before it would have any power on them at all. Like right now, I can tell you "better not go to bed till tomorrow night, if you go to bed tonight, you're going to die in your sleep" And would you believe me if I said something as such? Would you be scared to go to sleep? No, you would laugh and head off to bed. This is the whole thing though, those who believe in what they are told as far as religion, be it Christianity, Islam, or any other sect, are doing just this. You give them the power over you, when you accept it as true. It's called being submissive. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with doing for other's before oneself? What's wrong with assuring other's are provided for before oneself? That is all Christianity teaches. Teaches us not to judge other's, with this right here there will never be someone superior to another. For we all have fallen short at one time or other, no one's better then the other. And if you want to talk about something controlling someone, hmmm let's look at this. Laws of the land - They control what you can and can not do according to their standards. Your child - You work endlessly to try to provide a great life for that child. You spend your time working to provide money and spend your other time taking care of the child and or making sure the child is taken care of. And so on and so on. We all have things "control" us if you wish to call it that. What is so wrong about being "controlled" into loving other people? To love others, that's fine. But here's the problem. Religion twists and manipulates, and in fact even limits what love can be and what love can't be. Like homosexual love is wrong according to it. If you wanna love people, fine go for it. The danger is when you have a belief system defining it for you. That's what's wrong about it. Secondly, you mention government. Well let's think about this, religion and government have a very similar setup. That is to say. Do as I say whether you like it or not, or you will suffer. When have you known a government to work in the best interests in the people and not themselves instead? Really stop and think about that. Homosexuality and love have almost nothing to do with one another. Homosexuality is one that has sex with the same gender. Just because one loves another, that does not mean that someone should have sex with the one they love. I love everybody, weather they are male or female, makes no never mind. Loving someone has no limit to gender and is not directly associated with sexual behaviors. Yes of course you are to love the one you have a sexual relationship with eg., your married spouse. Sex is for reproduction, for populating the world. A male and a male can not do this, a woman and a woman can not do this. There sex is purely for physical pleasure. There are much more and far greater and sincere ways to express one's love for another. No this is about control Cowboy. You cannot put a monopoly on sex or love for that matter like this. It is absolutely ridiculous for a loving God to burn someone for expressing their love for another person. I reject it outright as such.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Fri 05/13/11 10:03 PM
Not threatening anyone. If God isn't real, what is there to feel threatened about? I can not threaten you with having the boogeyman sneak in your door tonight because you won't listen to me. Again, if God isn't real, what would there be to feel threatened about? the threat does not arise because someone don't believe that God is real..the threat comes from those that do believe that God is real, real or not people have killed in the name of What would the threat accomplish? The threat would be "forcing" someone to believe. But you would have to believe in the first place for this "forcing" to be able to take place. So wouldn't make much sense. The person already believes, what would they be "forced" into? Or threatened into? Because ok again, if someone doesn't believe, they will not put much credit to the "threat". Cause they feel it's fairy tails anyways. And again if someone believes in God, what would they be being "forced" or "threatened" into? as I said the threat is not from God...it's from the believers that are using their belief in God to deliver threats Still, what would the threat accomplish? Would only accomplish pushing people away. No one, that I know, goes around straight out telling none believers they will burn for not believing, or anything a long those lines. Yes it has been mentioned on this forum in particular, because it has come up in certain different discussion. But it's not posted to threaten anyone. Would you rather be ignorant of it? Or would you rather be able to make a choice if you wish to worship God or not? Just merely enlightening people with this knowledge of certain possible outcomes of certain actions. Again, no threats. Pure enlightenment and informing. you keep asking what would a threat accomplish...you keep looking in the wrong direction towards the receiver of the threat which is generally classified as being the victim....it's generally the deliver of the threat that gets some form of sadistic pleasure from the delivery of the threats Yes, but there is generally a reason for the threat. If the threat won't accomplish anything, why would one do it? There IS a reason for the threat, it's called CONTROL. Plain and simple. And how can you control anyone when they see it having no more merit then merry had a little lamb? Those people aren't controlled obviously. It's those that are foolish enough to buy into it, that are the controlled ones. How can someone be "controlled" when they are willingly doing it and or willingly not doing something? Because even if it's willingly, what happens is, their thoughts become yours. You think you're thinking your own thoughts, but you're really not. You don't know much about how mind control works do you? Sure I do. But one has to give merit to what is said before it would have any power on them at all. Like right now, I can tell you "better not go to bed till tomorrow night, if you go to bed tonight, you're going to die in your sleep" And would you believe me if I said something as such? Would you be scared to go to sleep? No, you would laugh and head off to bed. This is the whole thing though, those who believe in what they are told as far as religion, be it Christianity, Islam, or any other sect, are doing just this. You give them the power over you, when you accept it as true. It's called being submissive. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with doing for other's before oneself? What's wrong with assuring other's are provided for before oneself? That is all Christianity teaches. Teaches us not to judge other's, with this right here there will never be someone superior to another. For we all have fallen short at one time or other, no one's better then the other. And if you want to talk about something controlling someone, hmmm let's look at this. Laws of the land - They control what you can and can not do according to their standards. Your child - You work endlessly to try to provide a great life for that child. You spend your time working to provide money and spend your other time taking care of the child and or making sure the child is taken care of. And so on and so on. We all have things "control" us if you wish to call it that. What is so wrong about being "controlled" into loving other people? To love others, that's fine. But here's the problem. Religion twists and manipulates, and in fact even limits what love can be and what love can't be. Like homosexual love is wrong according to it. If you wanna love people, fine go for it. The danger is when you have a belief system defining it for you. That's what's wrong about it. Secondly, you mention government. Well let's think about this, religion and government have a very similar setup. That is to say. Do as I say whether you like it or not, or you will suffer. When have you known a government to work in the best interests in the people and not themselves instead? Really stop and think about that. Homosexuality and love have almost nothing to do with one another. Homosexuality is one that has sex with the same gender. Just because one loves another, that does not mean that someone should have sex with the one they love. I love everybody, weather they are male or female, makes no never mind. Loving someone has no limit to gender and is not directly associated with sexual behaviors. Yes of course you are to love the one you have a sexual relationship with eg., your married spouse. Sex is for reproduction, for populating the world. A male and a male can not do this, a woman and a woman can not do this. There sex is purely for physical pleasure. There are much more and far greater and sincere ways to express one's love for another. No this is about control Cowboy. You cannot put a monopoly on sex or love for that matter like this. It is absolutely ridiculous for a loving God to burn someone for expressing their love for another person. I reject it outright as such. Sex is for reproduction. And again, there are many upon many ways to express your love for someone without the need for sexual intercourse. And there is no "monopoly" on love. We are to love everyone, how is that being monopolized?

Kleisto Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5704	Fri 05/13/11 10:05 PM
Not threatening anyone. If God isn't real, what is there to feel threatened about? I can not threaten you with having the boogeyman sneak in your door tonight because you won't listen to me. Again, if God isn't real, what would there be to feel threatened about? the threat does not arise because someone don't believe that God is real..the threat comes from those that do believe that God is real, real or not people have killed in the name of What would the threat accomplish? The threat would be "forcing" someone to believe. But you would have to believe in the first place for this "forcing" to be able to take place. So wouldn't make much sense. The person already believes, what would they be "forced" into? Or threatened into? Because ok again, if someone doesn't believe, they will not put much credit to the "threat". Cause they feel it's fairy tails anyways. And again if someone believes in God, what would they be being "forced" or "threatened" into? as I said the threat is not from God...it's from the believers that are using their belief in God to deliver threats Still, what would the threat accomplish? Would only accomplish pushing people away. No one, that I know, goes around straight out telling none believers they will burn for not believing, or anything a long those lines. Yes it has been mentioned on this forum in particular, because it has come up in certain different discussion. But it's not posted to threaten anyone. Would you rather be ignorant of it? Or would you rather be able to make a choice if you wish to worship God or not? Just merely enlightening people with this knowledge of certain possible outcomes of certain actions. Again, no threats. Pure enlightenment and informing. you keep asking what would a threat accomplish...you keep looking in the wrong direction towards the receiver of the threat which is generally classified as being the victim....it's generally the deliver of the threat that gets some form of sadistic pleasure from the delivery of the threats Yes, but there is generally a reason for the threat. If the threat won't accomplish anything, why would one do it? There IS a reason for the threat, it's called CONTROL. Plain and simple. And how can you control anyone when they see it having no more merit then merry had a little lamb? Those people aren't controlled obviously. It's those that are foolish enough to buy into it, that are the controlled ones. How can someone be "controlled" when they are willingly doing it and or willingly not doing something? Because even if it's willingly, what happens is, their thoughts become yours. You think you're thinking your own thoughts, but you're really not. You don't know much about how mind control works do you? Sure I do. But one has to give merit to what is said before it would have any power on them at all. Like right now, I can tell you "better not go to bed till tomorrow night, if you go to bed tonight, you're going to die in your sleep" And would you believe me if I said something as such? Would you be scared to go to sleep? No, you would laugh and head off to bed. This is the whole thing though, those who believe in what they are told as far as religion, be it Christianity, Islam, or any other sect, are doing just this. You give them the power over you, when you accept it as true. It's called being submissive. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with doing for other's before oneself? What's wrong with assuring other's are provided for before oneself? That is all Christianity teaches. Teaches us not to judge other's, with this right here there will never be someone superior to another. For we all have fallen short at one time or other, no one's better then the other. And if you want to talk about something controlling someone, hmmm let's look at this. Laws of the land - They control what you can and can not do according to their standards. Your child - You work endlessly to try to provide a great life for that child. You spend your time working to provide money and spend your other time taking care of the child and or making sure the child is taken care of. And so on and so on. We all have things "control" us if you wish to call it that. What is so wrong about being "controlled" into loving other people? To love others, that's fine. But here's the problem. Religion twists and manipulates, and in fact even limits what love can be and what love can't be. Like homosexual love is wrong according to it. If you wanna love people, fine go for it. The danger is when you have a belief system defining it for you. That's what's wrong about it. Secondly, you mention government. Well let's think about this, religion and government have a very similar setup. That is to say. Do as I say whether you like it or not, or you will suffer. When have you known a government to work in the best interests in the people and not themselves instead? Really stop and think about that. Homosexuality and love have almost nothing to do with one another. Homosexuality is one that has sex with the same gender. Just because one loves another, that does not mean that someone should have sex with the one they love. I love everybody, weather they are male or female, makes no never mind. Loving someone has no limit to gender and is not directly associated with sexual behaviors. Yes of course you are to love the one you have a sexual relationship with eg., your married spouse. Sex is for reproduction, for populating the world. A male and a male can not do this, a woman and a woman can not do this. There sex is purely for physical pleasure. There are much more and far greater and sincere ways to express one's love for another. No this is about control Cowboy. You cannot put a monopoly on sex or love for that matter like this. It is absolutely ridiculous for a loving God to burn someone for expressing their love for another person. I reject it outright as such. Sex is for reproduction. And again, there are many upon many ways to express your love for someone without the need for sexual intercourse. And there is no "monopoly" on love. We are to love everyone, how is that being monopolized? Because Christianity limits what it can and cannot be! There's a whole big world out there outside of religion Cowboy.

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Fri 05/13/11 10:42 PM
Not threatening anyone. If God isn't real, what is there to feel threatened about? I can not threaten you with having the boogeyman sneak in your door tonight because you won't listen to me. Again, if God isn't real, what would there be to feel threatened about? the threat does not arise because someone don't believe that God is real..the threat comes from those that do believe that God is real, real or not people have killed in the name of What would the threat accomplish? The threat would be "forcing" someone to believe. But you would have to believe in the first place for this "forcing" to be able to take place. So wouldn't make much sense. The person already believes, what would they be "forced" into? Or threatened into? Because ok again, if someone doesn't believe, they will not put much credit to the "threat". Cause they feel it's fairy tails anyways. And again if someone believes in God, what would they be being "forced" or "threatened" into? as I said the threat is not from God...it's from the believers that are using their belief in God to deliver threats Still, what would the threat accomplish? Would only accomplish pushing people away. No one, that I know, goes around straight out telling none believers they will burn for not believing, or anything a long those lines. Yes it has been mentioned on this forum in particular, because it has come up in certain different discussion. But it's not posted to threaten anyone. Would you rather be ignorant of it? Or would you rather be able to make a choice if you wish to worship God or not? Just merely enlightening people with this knowledge of certain possible outcomes of certain actions. Again, no threats. Pure enlightenment and informing. you keep asking what would a threat accomplish...you keep looking in the wrong direction towards the receiver of the threat which is generally classified as being the victim....it's generally the deliver of the threat that gets some form of sadistic pleasure from the delivery of the threats Yes, but there is generally a reason for the threat. If the threat won't accomplish anything, why would one do it? There IS a reason for the threat, it's called CONTROL. Plain and simple. And how can you control anyone when they see it having no more merit then merry had a little lamb? Those people aren't controlled obviously. It's those that are foolish enough to buy into it, that are the controlled ones. How can someone be "controlled" when they are willingly doing it and or willingly not doing something? Because even if it's willingly, what happens is, their thoughts become yours. You think you're thinking your own thoughts, but you're really not. You don't know much about how mind control works do you? Sure I do. But one has to give merit to what is said before it would have any power on them at all. Like right now, I can tell you "better not go to bed till tomorrow night, if you go to bed tonight, you're going to die in your sleep" And would you believe me if I said something as such? Would you be scared to go to sleep? No, you would laugh and head off to bed. This is the whole thing though, those who believe in what they are told as far as religion, be it Christianity, Islam, or any other sect, are doing just this. You give them the power over you, when you accept it as true. It's called being submissive. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with doing for other's before oneself? What's wrong with assuring other's are provided for before oneself? That is all Christianity teaches. Teaches us not to judge other's, with this right here there will never be someone superior to another. For we all have fallen short at one time or other, no one's better then the other. And if you want to talk about something controlling someone, hmmm let's look at this. Laws of the land - They control what you can and can not do according to their standards. Your child - You work endlessly to try to provide a great life for that child. You spend your time working to provide money and spend your other time taking care of the child and or making sure the child is taken care of. And so on and so on. We all have things "control" us if you wish to call it that. What is so wrong about being "controlled" into loving other people? To love others, that's fine. But here's the problem. Religion twists and manipulates, and in fact even limits what love can be and what love can't be. Like homosexual love is wrong according to it. If you wanna love people, fine go for it. The danger is when you have a belief system defining it for you. That's what's wrong about it. Secondly, you mention government. Well let's think about this, religion and government have a very similar setup. That is to say. Do as I say whether you like it or not, or you will suffer. When have you known a government to work in the best interests in the people and not themselves instead? Really stop and think about that. That is right .....and that is why God doen't want someone just joining a religion....God wants a relationship with us, not another religion with us......... all religion does is try to change us from the outside in.... relationship however, changes us from the inside out... and that is a BIG difference. Religion is not the answer.......relationship with God is the answer . That's really What the bible is trying to show and tell us about... a relationship back to God thru Jesus..... but trying to turn that book called the bible into just another religion , isn't what it was meant to be about at all. Christianity was never meant to be turned into a relgion... man did that....christianity and the bible is about establishing a relationship back with the Father thru Christ Jesus... and it cannot be forced on someone.... pushed on someone..... otherwise again as said before, it becomes nothing more than harrassment. Or just....religion .

Kleisto Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5704	Fri 05/13/11 10:45 PM Edited by Kleisto on Fri 05/13/11 10:47 PM
Not threatening anyone. If God isn't real, what is there to feel threatened about? I can not threaten you with having the boogeyman sneak in your door tonight because you won't listen to me. Again, if God isn't real, what would there be to feel threatened about? the threat does not arise because someone don't believe that God is real..the threat comes from those that do believe that God is real, real or not people have killed in the name of What would the threat accomplish? The threat would be "forcing" someone to believe. But you would have to believe in the first place for this "forcing" to be able to take place. So wouldn't make much sense. The person already believes, what would they be "forced" into? Or threatened into? Because ok again, if someone doesn't believe, they will not put much credit to the "threat". Cause they feel it's fairy tails anyways. And again if someone believes in God, what would they be being "forced" or "threatened" into? as I said the threat is not from God...it's from the believers that are using their belief in God to deliver threats Still, what would the threat accomplish? Would only accomplish pushing people away. No one, that I know, goes around straight out telling none believers they will burn for not believing, or anything a long those lines. Yes it has been mentioned on this forum in particular, because it has come up in certain different discussion. But it's not posted to threaten anyone. Would you rather be ignorant of it? Or would you rather be able to make a choice if you wish to worship God or not? Just merely enlightening people with this knowledge of certain possible outcomes of certain actions. Again, no threats. Pure enlightenment and informing. you keep asking what would a threat accomplish...you keep looking in the wrong direction towards the receiver of the threat which is generally classified as being the victim....it's generally the deliver of the threat that gets some form of sadistic pleasure from the delivery of the threats Yes, but there is generally a reason for the threat. If the threat won't accomplish anything, why would one do it? There IS a reason for the threat, it's called CONTROL. Plain and simple. And how can you control anyone when they see it having no more merit then merry had a little lamb? Those people aren't controlled obviously. It's those that are foolish enough to buy into it, that are the controlled ones. How can someone be "controlled" when they are willingly doing it and or willingly not doing something? Because even if it's willingly, what happens is, their thoughts become yours. You think you're thinking your own thoughts, but you're really not. You don't know much about how mind control works do you? Sure I do. But one has to give merit to what is said before it would have any power on them at all. Like right now, I can tell you "better not go to bed till tomorrow night, if you go to bed tonight, you're going to die in your sleep" And would you believe me if I said something as such? Would you be scared to go to sleep? No, you would laugh and head off to bed. This is the whole thing though, those who believe in what they are told as far as religion, be it Christianity, Islam, or any other sect, are doing just this. You give them the power over you, when you accept it as true. It's called being submissive. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with doing for other's before oneself? What's wrong with assuring other's are provided for before oneself? That is all Christianity teaches. Teaches us not to judge other's, with this right here there will never be someone superior to another. For we all have fallen short at one time or other, no one's better then the other. And if you want to talk about something controlling someone, hmmm let's look at this. Laws of the land - They control what you can and can not do according to their standards. Your child - You work endlessly to try to provide a great life for that child. You spend your time working to provide money and spend your other time taking care of the child and or making sure the child is taken care of. And so on and so on. We all have things "control" us if you wish to call it that. What is so wrong about being "controlled" into loving other people? To love others, that's fine. But here's the problem. Religion twists and manipulates, and in fact even limits what love can be and what love can't be. Like homosexual love is wrong according to it. If you wanna love people, fine go for it. The danger is when you have a belief system defining it for you. That's what's wrong about it. Secondly, you mention government. Well let's think about this, religion and government have a very similar setup. That is to say. Do as I say whether you like it or not, or you will suffer. When have you known a government to work in the best interests in the people and not themselves instead? Really stop and think about that. That is right .....and that is why God doen't want someone just joining a religion....God wants a relationship with us, not another religion with us......... all religion does is try to change us from the outside in.... relationship however, changes us from the inside out... and that is a BIG difference. Religion is not the answer.......relationship with God is the answer . That's really What the bible is trying to show and tell us about... a relationship back to God thru Jesus..... but trying to turn that book called the bible into just another religion , isn't what it was meant to be about at all. Christianity was never meant to be turned into a relgion... man did that....christianity and the bible is about establishing a relationship back with the Father thru Christ Jesus... and it cannot be forced on someone.... pushed on someone..... otherwise again as said before, it becomes nothing more than harrassment. Or just....religion . But doesn't Christianity itself force you to make a choice at gunpoint basically? Where's the free will in.....obey or die? If you are believing by what a book says, you limit your understanding of God to that, do you know what I mean? You can't limit God like that, to one belief system or one book. To do so means God is no longer unlimited.

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Fri 05/13/11 10:54 PM
Sex is for reproduction. And again, there are many upon many ways to express your love for someone without the need for sexual intercourse. And there is no "monopoly" on love. We are to love everyone, how is that being monopolized? Sorry Cowboy, your statement above is not quite what the bible teaches..... once more.... until you know the bible better, please quit discussing it on here.

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Fri 05/13/11 11:13 PM Edited by MorningSong on Sat 05/14/11 12:10 AM
Kliesto......christianity doesn't force....... God doesn't force.... people force . God put a measure of faith in us all to know Him.... and gently draws us to Him.... and one day people will come to God on their own, as the truth becomes clear to them..... and not because of any other reason. See Kliesto, God has no interest in man just coming to Him becasue of feeling forced to come....and has no other choice. God doen't want anyone coming to Him like that at all. God doen't want blind fools following HIm just becasue they felt they HAD to .. or else perish.... NONSENSE. God doesn't work that way, and isn't interested in that kind of foolishness. God wants WILLING followers....those who come to Him when they are ready.....those who come to Him after their hearts are touched and they finally begin to see and hear..and understand Who He Is.... and not until then and not for any other reason does God want us to Come to Him, Kliesto.

Kleisto Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5704	Fri 05/13/11 11:22 PM
Kliesto......christianity doesn't force....... God doesn't force.... people force . God put a measure of faith in us all to know Him.... and gently draws us to Him.... and one day people will come to God on their own, as the truth becomes clear to them..... and not because of any other reason. See Kliesto, God has no interest in man just coming to Him becasue some religion is forcing us to.. God doen't want anyone coming to Him like that at all. God doen't want blind fools following HIm becasue they felt they HAD to .. or else perish.... NONSENSE. God doesn't work that way, and isn't interested in that kind of foolishness. God wants WILLING followers....those who come to Him when they are ready.....those who come to Him after their hearts are touched and they finally begin to see and hear..and understand Who He Is.... and not until then and not for any other reason does God want us to Come to Him, Kliesto. Then why must there be ONE way to God and no others? We can't have free will, if that free will is limited to two choices in the same breath. It doesn't work.

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Fri 05/13/11 11:27 PM Edited by MorningSong on Sat 05/14/11 12:14 AM
God wants us to come to Him...warts and all.. just as we are..good habits..bad habits...doesn't matter..... we are to come just as we are. THEN when we come to Him just as we are, GOD DOES THE CLEANING UP IN OUR LIVES...SOMETIMES GRADUALLY.... AND HE DOESN'T BEAT US UP OR CONDEMN US WHILE CLEANING US UP!!!! GOD IS THE ONE WHO BEGINS THE WORK OF CHANGING US FROM THE INSIDE OUT. THAT IS NOT RELIGIONS JOB TO DO.....NOR MAN'S JOB TO DO. GOD DOES THE JOB OF CLEANING US UP ..... AND WHILE GOD IS CLEANING US UP , GOS GENTLY CONVICTS US , AND NEVER CONDEMNS US. EVER.

Kleisto Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5704	Fri 05/13/11 11:30 PM
God wants us to come to Him...warts and all.. just as we are..good habits..bad habits...doesn't mater..... we are to come just as we are. THEN when we come to Him just as we are, GOD DOES THE CLEANING UP IN OUR LIVES...SOMETIMES GRADUALLY.... AND HE DOESN'T BEAT US UP OR CONDEMN US WHILE CLEANING US UP!!!! GOD IS THE ONE WHO BEGINS THE WORK OF CHANGING US FROM THE INSIDE. THAT IS NOT RELIGIONS JOB..OR MAN'S JOB TO JUDGE ANOTHER.. GOD DOES THE JOB OF CLEANING US UP .....NOT SOME RELIGION.... AND WHILE GOD IS CLEANING US UP , GOS GENTLY CONVICTS US , AND NEVER CONDEMNS US. EVER.[/color[ Right I get that, but why is the Bible needed for that? Why can't man have a relationship with God without the book?