It seems some of you are still fighting with the fact that the universe is indeed one of the few perfections we have in this life. That's okay, a lot of people say 'nothing is perfect.' Although I've always looked at that as an excuse, insects for example are perfect...take an ant for instance, from the onset of birth it serves a queen gets the queen food and reproduces with the queen.

Humans on the other hand, who the hell really knows why they are born. From the onset of birth humans are lost and wandering, searching for a "reason" where there simply isn't a "reason" to be had. Humanity is the only living organism that you will ever come across that has to have a "bigger" reason for a simple action, we analyze our steps before acting off instinct, instinct it seems is deadweight.

The universe and its perfection surrounds our fallible existence, even in the face of this perfection we still lay the claim that 'nothing is perfect.' Which, in its own right, is a blind claim...something of which humanity has done time and time again. I've always figured it was because humanity is naturally egotistical, therefore there cannot be anything perfect, in a way this keeps us above...since there is nothing perfect, we are okay to fail time and time again.

But that is unfair, even an ant in its perfection will fail to get food. In a way most things indeed fail at one point or another, and even with that we still refuse to see the perfection of the universe, something that has never in the age of man failed. Failure is natural, but humanity is the only one that tries to distance itself from failure.

So, if God does truly look down on man...what makes us think he is even marginally impressed? Where does the illogical thought come in that we are going to heaven or hell, what dictates where we go? Some commandments that were written centuries ago? You would think the Bible would be ageless instead of aging, no?

I might ask the logical side of you, why agnostic?

What is the difference in a belief in gods and the stories the bring them to life, and a beleif that your being is of such importance as to be given some sort of endless soul?

To question what happens when we die, suggests your logical functions are being overridden by the fear of the inevitable - death.

So consider the whole scenario of life and death in the broader scheme of the natural world - just as you have considered the notion of gods with regards to the natural world around us.

Just a suggestion for one who questions such things.

Ah - but you see - a 'natural' balance is still maintained...Lesbians like boobies!

What is perfection? To you being a servent and repeating the same day over and over until death overtakes you is perfection? Perhaps it is only the queen that fits the bill - but then her perfection requires an army of servants and actually those servents would be useless if the environment they live should become hostile to their existence.



If our reason for being is related to some function within the environment - then we are serving it.

If we cease to be a functional part of the environmental system and our being here causes it harm - we will cease to exist at some point - and the system will replace us with something more functional, perhaps to repair the damage we have done.

If we are not a functional requirement of environmental system, but we are harmless to it then our purpose is quided by self-determination.



Perhaps our instincts have been turned off, so we can see the harm our overpopulation and over consumption can reak on the environment. Perhaps our purpose is not one we would choose and apparently it's not one that many are willing to accept.



Even here you talk of perfection, but even here you provide no difinitive characteristics of perfection. Naming a thing and stating it is perfect does not define what perfection is.



Comparisons of unlike things do not help to define perfection. That's a major problem in most spiritual beliefs.



Can perfection cease to be perfection?
Can the inputs of perfection produce less than perfect outputs?
Are the characteristis of perfection eternal even if perfection itself ceases to be recognized?
Can perfect be constructed through imperfect means?
Can the imperfect ever attain perfection?

EVERYTHING substantial in this world is perfect. Substantial as in something physical. People's decisions and choices are not always perfect. But the world itself is exactly perfect. And I noticed a couple posts on things around homosexuality. Homosexuality is a CHOICE. It is not natural and or intended. Yes people may be attracted to the same gender, but that does NOT make them "homosexual". It's their actions of making a relationship with the same gender that is homosexual. So again, EVERYTHING in this world is PERFECT. It's people's actions that are not perfect.

no problem mate

LOL, I love comedy, especially when rddled with truth!

Logic?

OUR existence is beyond logic; much less heaven and hell.
Everything we do and all our expectations are about faith and trust.
So why do we give our God and Creator the third degree. We put our lives daily in the hands of man, who has only recently obtained what knowledge he has and will likely loose it all in old age. Man has to go to school to learn all that you trust him to do for you. Degrees are many times illegally obtained.
We are so untrustworthy to one another far beyond any thing we could dare accuse God of.
All that we interrogate God about; we naively accept of our favored or most popular philosophers & theorists. Imperfect man.



Fabric???

Wars, famine, man-made deseases that plague the world?

2Ch_16:9, "For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have WARS."

Mat_24:6, And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

James 4:1-3
1, From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2, Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3, Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.



Job_7:17, "What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?"

Job 7:18, "And that thou shouldest visit him every morning, and try him every moment?"



Psalms 139: 14-18
14, I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15, My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16, Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

17, How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

18, If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.


Psa_25:12, "What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose."

13, His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.

14, The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.




John 3:16

I'm not looking for a sermon Cerise, I've heard more of them than I care to.

Why do I bother to think about stuff like this? Because in the wider sense it pertains to my well-being, selfish I suppose, but for every tree crushed and every living being fending off extinction...it affects me, or will affect me one way or the other.

Eventually we will answer for the destruction we have caused, I'm just wondering why some people destroy in the name of God when it is quite apparent that said God or Gods isn't really trying to help. Why do millions of people believe in said God or Gods when there isn't any proof to their existing outside of a book? Why would you fight blood, sweat, and tears for this same exact thing?

Honestly, as far as I can tell...religion has run its course of being useful. Now wars are fought for those very beliefs, famine, disease, and the destruction of this natural world are all directly linked to a God or Gods.

See, this is how it pertains to me. Because I know people that have died in service against an enemy that fought for a God, because thousands have died in service against an enemy that fought for God. Religion it would seem causes more destruction than it seems to help any, and why is that? Radicals? Radical beliefs are nothing more than beliefs stemmed out of orthodox beliefs, essentially, radical beliefs in their own stand as a religious belief.

Why is that? And if it is true, and a God truly exists, what makes us think we are going to make it to his pearly white gates?

There is no f*cking god.

I know God cares as much as I know my own mother loves me

no way I can PROVE to someone else, but I certainly can FEEL it for myself,,,

lol,, may as well post 'your mother doesnt f__ing love you"..lol

still wont change any hearts or minds,,,,

I truly see the agnostism (doubt) you feel.

At this time, you are asking man for answers of which only God can assure you. You will not obtain the answers until you allow the Creator access to your heart.
Because HE declares that He is "the Way".

But for the Grace of God we would all be agnostics had we not ceased from our labors -blind doings- and our own stubborn thinking. Refusing to accept the only way of reparation.

2Chronicles 7:14...

"If my people, which are called by my name,

shall humble themselves, and pray,

and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways;

then will I hear from heaven,

and will forgive their sin,

and will heal their land."

In God's Word, the History Book of Believers, some of whom turned unbelievers, the scenerio is repeated...Former believers turning away from their Creator and Provider to seek something that appeals more to their own reasonings and lusts. In most cases it's stubborn pride. Some think..that salvation is too easy to be true, while others think.. it's too hard..."there's got to be more to this" they say. "There's got to be another way, another god, a lesser god."

These persuasions can develop into religions

if held as a constant thought;

never accepting the answer

that is already considerately displayed.

Over-examining a gift given.

I was born with a rare, hidden cranial blood vessel defect that nearly killed me 3 times before human intervention costing me and my insurance company over $100k fixed the problem.

I had no choice in the matter. I happened in the womb and there was nothing my mother did that caused it. If indeed there is a 'Creator' that crafts all living things to perfection, you'll have to chalk up this FLAW to his shoddy worksmanship.

Likely, you'll say it's a disease that the alleged existence of Satan caused, but that's because you're too inured in your beliefs to see any other points of view. You'll likely cast blame elsewhere despite there being no logic to support it. I think you once told me to quit bringing this up that I was being a complainer. Not so. It's a valid argument based on provable facts to which I can attest having suffered through it.

BTW, God didn't teach the people over in Sweden who developed the treatment of it circa de 1985 how to fix these anomalies, they discovered it the old-fashioned way-- a lot of hard work, observation, hypothesis and scientific method.

Belief, by it's very definition, rests on the improven. Some situations and dilemmas in life have no resolutions available based on Faith and Belief, and those are the exceptions that prove the rule.


-Kerry O.

BRAVO

You survived this tragedy didn't you? You're still alive aren't you? This problem didn't cost you your life did it? So where is it not perfect? It survived the problem perfectly or else you wouldn't still be here. Yes you can give the credit to the doctors if you want. God works through people my friend, he is the one that gives people the ability to do things they do in this world. But again, you're more then welcome to give the credit where you wish.

Agnosticism does not equate to 'doubt'.

On the contrary agnosticism is honesty.

All honest people must confess that they are indeed agnostic when it comes to God, unless they they are claiming to have divine knowledge that genuinely exceeds the knowledge of other human beings.

Agnostic simply means "without knowledge". It does not mean "to doubt".

The God you proselytize is a God of hate.

Your God hates honesty.

Your God hates those who confess to be without divine knowledge.

I cannot be honest and get to your God.

The only way I can get to your God is through lies and deception.

What kind of a God would hate honesty?

A non-believer is simply confessing their TRUTH.

Your God hates TRUTH evidently.

Your God hates those who disbelieve or doubt, or simply have enough honest integrity to confess that they cannot know if a God truly exists.

You God hates heathens, and every honest person must necessarily be a heathen.

For even for you to claim to 'believe' you must 'pretend'.

Your God fosters pretense over honest.

Your God hates honesty and rejects those who are honest, open, and sincere.

You worship a God of hatred who favors those who are willing to pretend to know something they cannot know and to preach their lies as though they represent truth. You cannot be an honest person and get to the God that you worship, only those who are willing to abandon honesty and favor pretense will be accepted by your hateful God.


No honesty is permitted in your religion.

Honesty is seen as rejection of God.

Only pretense is embraced with open arms.

What kind of a religion is that?

Who do YOU think "we" will answer to?

God is more mindful of man than of trees and animals.
and mankind will never be extinct.
Mat_24:22, And except those days should be shortened,
there should no flesh be saved:
but for the elect's sake
those days shall be shortened.



Extremism causes more destruction;

Man going off the deep end; serving the god of "self".

Anyone who refuses God's pure message,

being selective of what he wants to believe,

has split Gods word...

much like the splitting of an atom.

God's Word is just that powerful.

The effects of the detractions are highly explosive.

Heb_4:12, For the word of God is quick, and powerful,
and sharper than any twoedged sword,
piercing even to the dividing asunder
of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow,
and is a discerner of the thoughts
and intents of the heart.



We must get self out of the way.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

James 1:
Testing Your Faith

1, James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
2, My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3, Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4, But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
5, If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6, But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7, For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8, A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
9, Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:
10, But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.
11, For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.
12, Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13, Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14, But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15, Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16, Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17, Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
18, Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
19, Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20, For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
21, Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22, But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23, For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24, For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25, But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26, If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
27, Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.