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| Topic: Does God even care? | |
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Cowboy wrote:
Not true. If agnostic means without knowing, then we are not agnostic. How do you know the world is round? Read it out of a book. How do you know history? Read it out of a book. And so on and so on. The scriptures we are given contains all the knowledge there is about our father. So in turn we are absolutely not agnostic for we KNOW our father which art in heaven exists. If one is willing to open their heart to God, he will then give one all the knowledge one would need. Your argument here can be applied to all religions and philosophies, even including atheism. So basically all you're saying is that we have no more reason to believe in one religion or spiritual philosphy over any other because according to you all knowledge comes from books, and books can be found that makes every manner of claim. 
By the way, I totally disagree that all our knowledge comes from books. As a scientist I gained much of my knowlege via the actual experience of performing experiments myself. There are many ways that we can verify that the earth is round directly without relying on information in books. You can't verify the supertitious claims made in the Bible. You're stuck with having to place faith in hearsay rumors. Moreover once you reach that point then you may as well believe the hearsay rumors of Zeus, or Thor, or Oden, or any of the other hearsay rumors. So your approach to religion places all religions and mythologies on equal footing. All you are basically saying is that all religions and mythologies have precisely the same merit because they are all nothing more than a matter of faith about something we've read in books. For example, according to you then, Wicca has precisely the same merit as the Bible. It's just a matter of which books you'd like to believe in. according to you all knowledge comes from books No, that's not what I said at all. I said specifically "If one is willing to open their heart to God, he will then give one all the knowledge one would need." The bible is only the start, the key to the door, way to the knowledge. Relations with our father is a personal relation. It's not just reading out of a book. You let him into your heart and he works from there. He will reveal all the secrets in this world if you seek them. |
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Peter Pan wrote:
No cigar... Good, I don't smoke anyway, so it's no loss. 
You said the religion and used the Bible to clarify which religion you were talking about. It doesn't matter. The basic observation applies to any religion or doctrine that makes such a claim. So it doesn't matter at all what I think of the Bible.
Thank you for admitting that... No problem. 
It doesn't matter what anyone thinks of the Bible, the basic truth I've stated still holds. You said earlier: If you can't decide what you believe or know (which you admit to not knowing anything for sure) No I don't admit to not knowing anything for sure. I know for sure that I am that I am. What I've confessed to is that in matters of knowing things that are beyond the knowledge of any human being I am indeed agnostic as everyone necessarily must be. Agnostic simply means without knowledge. Everyone is agnostic when it comes to the knowledge of whether or not a supreme being or "God" exists. There are two kinds of people: Those who are honest enough with themselves to confess to themselves that they are indeed necessarily agnostic in matters of knowledge of the existence of any God. And then there are those who live a life of pretense, pretending to themselves that they can know something that they obviously can't know. This is where people confuse 'faith' with 'knowledge'. They start to believe that faith is equivalent to knowledge. It also appears that once they go there, they totally lose the ability to even be honest with themselves. If you ask me if I know for certain that a supreme conscious being exists who has an egotistical persona and the knowledge and power to know and intervene in the affairs of mankind at his or her whim, I would necessarily have to say, "No I do not know that for certain". That's the only honest answer. Anything else would be a lie. Yes many religious people try to hold out the idea that they do indeed possess such knowledge. That right there shows that such people have totally lost any ability to be rational. All humans are agnostic with respect to God. So all that exists are those who are honest enough to confess it, and those who are in denial and refuse to confess the truth, even to themselves. As many non-religious people have often pointed out, obsessive religious people are simply people who don't have the ability to face the truth. Because the truth is that all humans are necessarily agnostic with respect to any personified gods. (i.e. without knowledge of the existence of any supposed personified gods.) That's just a fact of life. 
Agnostic simply means without knowledge. Everyone is agnostic when it comes to the knowledge of whether or not a supreme being or "God" exists. Not true. If agnostic means without knowing, then we are not agnostic. How do you know the world is round? Read it out of a book. How do you know history? Read it out of a book. And so on and so on. The scriptures we are given contains all the knowledge there is about our father. So in turn we are absolutely not agnostic for we KNOW our father which art in heaven exists. If one is willing to open their heart to God, he will then give one all the knowledge one would need. Actually we know the earth is round because noone has fallen off of it yet.
How do you know they haven't? If they fell off the earth, it would be kinda hard for them to come tell us lol >.< |
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Actually we know the earth is round because noone has fallen off of it yet.
Good point.
Everyone who tried to find an edge ended up back where they started from.
Not only that, but why would so many books have been written about people circumnavigating the globe? Is that all just a conspired hoax to keep us all from discovering the truth that it's really flat? Moreover, if all these books on science are falsified hoaxes, then why should we believe that religious books are any less than falsified hoaxes too? 
Your line of reasoning Cowboy can only remove crediblity from the doctrine you support, it's certainly not going to serve to support it. Especially not uniquely. As I said before, if all knowledge can only come from books, then all religions and spiritual philosophies are on precisely equal footing. Even opinions on atheism have been written in books so atheism is on equal footing as well. |
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Cowboy wrote:
No, that's not what I said at all. I said specifically "If one is willing to open their heart to God, he will then give one all the knowledge one would need." The bible is only the start, the key to the door, way to the knowledge. Relations with our father is a personal relation. It's not just reading out of a book. You let him into your heart and he works from there. He will reveal all the secrets in this world if you seek them. That's a standard basic belief of many religious and spiritual views. There's no reason to place that into a context of religious bigotry that requires that a person worship only the babblings of the ancient Hebrews. In fact, the Hebrews most likely got those concepts from the Eastern Mystics in the first place.
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Actually we know the earth is round because noone has fallen off of it yet.
How do you know they haven't? If they fell off the earth, it would be kinda hard for them to come tell us lol >.< You make a good point Cowboy. Comparing your religious views with a belief that the Earth is flat is truly a very good comparision. I do agree with that.
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Jeffrey Dahmer was also a 'changed man' via his prison conversion and if certain Christian Evangelicals are to be believed, is spending his days in his own mansion walking streets of gold. Not that I believe he is, but it illustrates the point that religionists care more about their dogmas and doctrines than they do justice. 1) Paul was forgiven by Jesus. 2) Paul honestly changed. 3) What Saul of Tarsus had done was LEGAL under Jewish law. It would be illegal today, but he wasn't a criminal in the eyes of the Romans or the Jews. 4) Deal with it. 
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Jeffrey Dahmer was also a 'changed man' via his prison conversion and if certain Christian Evangelicals are to be believed, is spending his days in his own mansion walking streets of gold. Not that I believe he is, but it illustrates the point that religionists care more about their dogmas and doctrines than they do justice. 1) Paul was forgiven by Jesus. 2) Paul honestly changed. 3) What Saul of Tarsus had done was LEGAL under Jewish law. It would be illegal today, but he wasn't a criminal in the eyes of the Romans or the Jews. 4) Deal with it.
1) Jeffrey Dahmer was forgiven by Jesus. 2) Jeffrey Dahmer honestly changed according to the Evangelicals, so God was honor bound to take him into heaven when he departed this mortal coil. 3) What Jeffrey Dahmer did WASN'T legal under secular law and like Paul, he was put in prison. Like Paul, he underwent a religious conversion after committing his crimes upon his fellow humans. Sure, Paul may not have been a cannibal, but he was no angel, either. 4) Oh wait-- come to think of it, I suppose they are both angels now, huh? What do you suppose they talk about? :) -Kerry O. |
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 I believe that there is a God, a creator of me, you and everything and everybody. I can't prove it, so i won't try. I don't need to prove it myself, because i believe it. A belief is a thought, one that i prefer to live with. It makes me feel good and secure and meaningful. I believe that God is in control now as he was from whenever the beginning was. Being that i believe this way, i also believe that God has a master plan which nobody knows and wouldn't be able to understand if we did know it, which is probably why we won't know it. It's difficult for a mourning parent of other loved one of a person who just died or got killed. They have a tendency to think that because they are a good person and love and positive lifestyles, God will protect them and theirs and when it doesn't happen, they are obviously disappointed. I understand that. However; if they were realistic to begin with, they should realize that they don't know God's plan and therefore why try to interpret it? To me, everything that happens is controlled by God, even those things that we humans may view as "bad" or disappointing or something we don't like. He isn't God just for a hour or a month or a year, he's God forever and is in total control. To question that is to weaken one's faith in goodness and create within themselves a hole, self made hole, and then attempt to fill it with something else other than God. I think of God as the master of everything and everybody and whatever happens, happens for a reason whether i like it or understand it. I just accept it, pain and all. That's my take on God. Thanks.
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1) Jeffrey Dahmer was forgiven by Jesus. How do you know that? 2) Jeffrey Dahmer honestly changed according to the Evangelicals, so God was honor bound to take him into heaven when he departed this mortal coil. Which Evangelicals? All of them? How many? And when did salvation become based on what a group of people thought? That's the root of the problem, you don't seem to understand the scriptures at all. It doesn't matter what anyone believes about Jeffery Dahmer, other than Jesus. 3) What Jeffrey Dahmer did WASN'T legal under secular law and like Paul, he was put in prison. Like Paul, he underwent a religious conversion after committing his crimes upon his fellow humans. Sure, Paul may not have been a cannibal, but he was no angel, either. Paul was imprisoned for being a Christian. If he had renounced Christianity, he would have been freed, instead he remained a Christian and was executed. As I have repeatedly said, Paul didn't break any laws, while he was hunting down Christians. While we can agree (I hope) that his actions of persecuting Christians were horrible, they weren't crimes. So why should he have been jailed? 4) Oh wait-- come to think of it, I suppose they are both angels now, huh? What do you suppose they talk about? :) Once again, you reveal your total lack of understanding of Christian doctrine. Why is it that you so angrily denounce a religion, which you know so little about? Hmmmm. Ask yourself that sometimes and see if you can answer honestly. Angels are not dead people. Confused? Guess what, watching reruns of "Touched By An Angel" isn't the same thing as studying Christianity. What I think is ironic is when non-Christians complain that God is too forgiving. You guys love to play both sides: God is EVIL!!!! and God forgives murderers!!!! If someone honestly repents of their crimes, then they can receive salvation, no matter how terrible their crimes were. That doesn't mean that they don't still deserve the secular punishment. Jesus forgave the sins of one of the crucified criminals, but didn't heal him. The criminal deserved his earthly punishment, because he committed crimes, but he deserved salvation, because he honestly repented of his evil ways.
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1) Jeffrey Dahmer was forgiven by Jesus. How do you know that? 2) Jeffrey Dahmer honestly changed according to the Evangelicals, so God was honor bound to take him into heaven when he departed this mortal coil. Which Evangelicals? All of them? How many? And when did salvation become based on what a group of people thought? That's the root of the problem, you don't seem to understand the scriptures at all. It doesn't matter what anyone believes about Jeffery Dahmer, other than Jesus. 3) What Jeffrey Dahmer did WASN'T legal under secular law and like Paul, he was put in prison. Like Paul, he underwent a religious conversion after committing his crimes upon his fellow humans. Sure, Paul may not have been a cannibal, but he was no angel, either. Paul was imprisoned for being a Christian. If he had renounced Christianity, he would have been freed, instead he remained a Christian and was executed. As I have repeatedly said, Paul didn't break any laws, while he was hunting down Christians. While we can agree (I hope) that his actions of persecuting Christians were horrible, they weren't crimes. So why should he have been jailed? 4) Oh wait-- come to think of it, I suppose they are both angels now, huh? What do you suppose they talk about? :) Once again, you reveal your total lack of understanding of Christian doctrine. Why is it that you so angrily denounce a religion, which you know so little about? Hmmmm. Ask yourself that sometimes and see if you can answer honestly. Angels are not dead people. Confused? Guess what, watching reruns of "Touched By An Angel" isn't the same thing as studying Christianity. What I think is ironic is when non-Christians complain that God is too forgiving. You guys love to play both sides: God is EVIL!!!! and God forgives murderers!!!! If someone honestly repents of their crimes, then they can receive salvation, no matter how terrible their crimes were. That doesn't mean that they don't still deserve the secular punishment. Jesus forgave the sins of one of the crucified criminals, but didn't heal him. The criminal deserved his earthly punishment, because he committed crimes, but he deserved salvation, because he honestly repented of his evil ways.
Oh, I don't think it's 'a total lack of understanging' so much as having the chutzpah to call the faith on its sophistry, more schizophrenic components, improbabilities and contradictions. For instance, in this reply, you say that I, a lowly Unbeliever, can't say that Jesus forgave Jeffrey Dahmer. That was at the beginning of your reply, but by the time you got to the end, you were spouting doctrine that says 'yes, the power of Jesus CAN forgive the worst of the worst'. But you, as a Believer, can? Well, which is it? That's a fair, direct question- will you answer it or not? If doctrine is inviolate law in the same manner as gravity, ANYONE should be able to predict with certainty the outcomes, not just the Faitful. When I drop an object I can reliably predict its vector and acceleration. Ah, but when it comes to religion, I have to go to a priest? Depending on to which one I go, I'll get different answers. Who wouldn't be confused? At least until they grok that the doctrine is a Rube Goldberg Deus Ex Machina construct that is as totally unreliable as it is incomprehensible and illogical. What I find ironic about the faith is that its more militant members truck no disagreement with its tenets and treat Unbelievers as spiritual They'll-Eventually-Get-Theirs criminals. That's such a human prediliction and the reason that I'm virtually certain all _revealed_ religions are human constructs purposely wrapped up in authoritarian subterfuge. Einstein thought God didn't play dice with the Universe and I suspect he doesn't think much of the Authoritarians who sock puppet him. -Kerry O. |
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1) Jeffrey Dahmer was forgiven by Jesus. How do you know that? 2) Jeffrey Dahmer honestly changed according to the Evangelicals, so God was honor bound to take him into heaven when he departed this mortal coil. Which Evangelicals? All of them? How many? And when did salvation become based on what a group of people thought? That's the root of the problem, you don't seem to understand the scriptures at all. It doesn't matter what anyone believes about Jeffery Dahmer, other than Jesus. 3) What Jeffrey Dahmer did WASN'T legal under secular law and like Paul, he was put in prison. Like Paul, he underwent a religious conversion after committing his crimes upon his fellow humans. Sure, Paul may not have been a cannibal, but he was no angel, either. Paul was imprisoned for being a Christian. If he had renounced Christianity, he would have been freed, instead he remained a Christian and was executed. As I have repeatedly said, Paul didn't break any laws, while he was hunting down Christians. While we can agree (I hope) that his actions of persecuting Christians were horrible, they weren't crimes. So why should he have been jailed? 4) Oh wait-- come to think of it, I suppose they are both angels now, huh? What do you suppose they talk about? :) Once again, you reveal your total lack of understanding of Christian doctrine. Why is it that you so angrily denounce a religion, which you know so little about? Hmmmm. Ask yourself that sometimes and see if you can answer honestly. Angels are not dead people. Confused? Guess what, watching reruns of "Touched By An Angel" isn't the same thing as studying Christianity. What I think is ironic is when non-Christians complain that God is too forgiving. You guys love to play both sides: God is EVIL!!!! and God forgives murderers!!!! If someone honestly repents of their crimes, then they can receive salvation, no matter how terrible their crimes were. That doesn't mean that they don't still deserve the secular punishment. Jesus forgave the sins of one of the crucified criminals, but didn't heal him. The criminal deserved his earthly punishment, because he committed crimes, but he deserved salvation, because he honestly repented of his evil ways.
Oh, I don't think it's 'a total lack of understanging' so much as having the chutzpah to call the faith on its sophistry, more schizophrenic components, improbabilities and contradictions. For instance, in this reply, you say that I, a lowly Unbeliever, can't say that Jesus forgave Jeffrey Dahmer. That was at the beginning of your reply, but by the time you got to the end, you were spouting doctrine that says 'yes, the power of Jesus CAN forgive the worst of the worst'. But you, as a Believer, can? Well, which is it? That's a fair, direct question- will you answer it or not? If doctrine is inviolate law in the same manner as gravity, ANYONE should be able to predict with certainty the outcomes, not just the Faitful. When I drop an object I can reliably predict its vector and acceleration. Ah, but when it comes to religion, I have to go to a priest? Depending on to which one I go, I'll get different answers. Who wouldn't be confused? At least until they grok that the doctrine is a Rube Goldberg Deus Ex Machina construct that is as totally unreliable as it is incomprehensible and illogical. What I find ironic about the faith is that its more militant members truck no disagreement with its tenets and treat Unbelievers as spiritual They'll-Eventually-Get-Theirs criminals. That's such a human prediliction and the reason that I'm virtually certain all _revealed_ religions are human constructs purposely wrapped up in authoritarian subterfuge. Einstein thought God didn't play dice with the Universe and I suspect he doesn't think much of the Authoritarians who sock puppet him. -Kerry O. Ah, but when it comes to religion, I have to go to a priest? Depending on to which one I go, I'll get different answers. Who wouldn't be confused? No you don't have to go to a priest. Your relationship with God is between you and our father if you wish to have one. There's no third parties needed such as priests, preachers, or any other people. It's between you and God. Again, it's a personal relationship between you and our father. No one else can get you there but you. Jesus is the only other person you need. Jesus is the path to God. He is the one that has given us the laws and the ways to our father eg., the pathway. He sacrificed his life for YOU to enjoy the gift of heaven. |
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KerryO said... blah blah blah yada yada yada... I said that God can forgive any sins, you claim that Jeffery Dahmer was forgiven for his sins. The difference between what you said and what I said is that I said what God can do: "Forgive any sins" and you made an unsupported claim as to what God has done: "Forgiven Jeffery Dahmer". Do you see the difference? But you, as a Believer, can? Well, which is it? That's a fair, direct question- will you answer it or not? No, it's a silly strawman argument, it's childish and it's annoying. You are making no distinction between what God can do and what God has done. Just because God CAN do something, doesn't mean that God HAS done that. |
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I said that God can forgive any sins, you claim that Jeffery Dahmer was forgiven for his sins. The difference between what you said and what I said is that I said what God can do: "Forgive any sins" and you made an unsupported claim as to what God has done: "Forgiven Jeffery Dahmer". Do you see the difference? Clever dodge and misquote. If you're going to invoke the mind of God and say what he has or hasn't done vis-a-vis Jeffrey Dahmer, your claim is no more supportable than you claim mine is. I base MY claim on YOUR experts, the prison clergy who ministered to Dahmer in prison. But you, as a Believer, can? Well, which is it? That's a fair, direct question- will you answer it or not? No, it's a silly strawman argument, it's childish and it's annoying. You are making no distinction between what God can do and what God has done. Just because God CAN do something, doesn't mean that God HAS done that. I'll take that as a 'no'. You refuse to answer the question because it puts your position in a bind. Spin it anyway you like, the doctrine of YOUR religion says that all people like Jeffrey Dahmer have to do is repent and declare Lord Jesus as their Lord and Master and they are forgiven carte blanche along with a billet in heaven. Sorry, that IS NOT justice and one of the reasons I believe Fundy God is a human construct. I don't care how 'annoying and childish' you find that, I've constructed my arguments in a civil tone even as the mask on your is beginning to slip badly. -Kerry O. |
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Clever dodge and misquote. If you're going to invoke the mind of God and say what he has or hasn't done vis-a-vis Jeffrey Dahmer, your claim is no more supportable than you claim mine is. I didn't say that Jeffery Dahmer wasn't forgiven, I asked how you know that he is. /yawn There is a vast difference between what God could or might have done and what God HAS done. I base MY claim on YOUR experts, the prison clergy who ministered to Dahmer in prison. So, I don't get to pick my own experts? lol You get to pick them for me? I smell troll. I'll take that as a 'no'. You refuse to answer the question because it puts your position in a bind. Spin it anyway you like, the doctrine of YOUR religion says that all people like Jeffrey Dahmer have to do is repent and declare Lord Jesus as their Lord and Master and they are forgiven carte blanche along with a billet in heaven. If a sinner honestly turned away from his sins and was trying to amend his life, why shouldn't he be forgiven? Sorry, that IS NOT justice and one of the reasons I believe Fundy God is a human construct. I don't care how 'annoying and childish' you find that, I've constructed my arguments in a civil tone even as the mask on your is beginning to slip badly. You are right, it's not justice, it's mercy. Justice is that every sin is punished, mercy is that God died to pay for our sins. |
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I said that God can forgive any sins, you claim that Jeffery Dahmer was forgiven for his sins. The difference between what you said and what I said is that I said what God can do: "Forgive any sins" and you made an unsupported claim as to what God has done: "Forgiven Jeffery Dahmer". Do you see the difference? Clever dodge and misquote. If you're going to invoke the mind of God and say what he has or hasn't done vis-a-vis Jeffrey Dahmer, your claim is no more supportable than you claim mine is. I base MY claim on YOUR experts, the prison clergy who ministered to Dahmer in prison. But you, as a Believer, can? Well, which is it? That's a fair, direct question- will you answer it or not? No, it's a silly strawman argument, it's childish and it's annoying. You are making no distinction between what God can do and what God has done. Just because God CAN do something, doesn't mean that God HAS done that. I'll take that as a 'no'. You refuse to answer the question because it puts your position in a bind. Spin it anyway you like, the doctrine of YOUR religion says that all people like Jeffrey Dahmer have to do is repent and declare Lord Jesus as their Lord and Master and they are forgiven carte blanche along with a billet in heaven. Sorry, that IS NOT justice and one of the reasons I believe Fundy God is a human construct. I don't care how 'annoying and childish' you find that, I've constructed my arguments in a civil tone even as the mask on your is beginning to slip badly. -Kerry O. YOUR religion says that all people like Jeffrey Dahmer have to do is repent and declare Lord Jesus as their Lord and Master and they are forgiven carte blanche along with a billet in heaven. Yes, repent and declare Jesus as lord and saviour. Repent = stop doing that of which you repented from. People make mistakes. So why not offer forgiveness for those mistakes if forgiveness is truly searched for? If one repents from the sin(s) they previously committed why not forgive them and give them another chance? They obviously mean they are sorry for they are refusing to do those actions again. |
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You are right, it's not justice, it's mercy. Justice is that every sin is punished, mercy is that God died to pay for our sins. Fortunately, at least in this country, this 'mercy' isn't allowed to be meted out for thought crimes. It would be a shame if religious fundamentalism were able to re-impose that yoke on humanity. Truly, THAT would be a sign of the End Times. -Kerry O. |
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Edited by
CeriseRose
on
Sun 01/02/11 05:39 PM
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Jeffrey Dahmer was also a 'changed man' via his prison conversion and if certain Christian Evangelicals are to be believed, is spending his days in his own mansion walking streets of gold. Not that I believe he is, but it illustrates the point that religionists care more about their dogmas and doctrines than they do justice. 1) Paul was forgiven by Jesus. 2) Paul honestly changed. 3) What Saul of Tarsus had done was LEGAL under Jewish law. It would be illegal today, but he wasn't a criminal in the eyes of the Romans or the Jews. 4) Deal with it.
As concerning Jeffrey Dahmer, while his crimes were horrendous, repentence is offered by God to all men. None of us knows whether he was truly converted in prison. The Lord is The Most Righteous Judge. |
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Cowboy wrote:
So why not offer forgiveness for those mistakes if forgiveness is truly searched for? If one repents from the sin(s) they previously committed why not forgive them and give them another chance? They obviously mean they are sorry for they are refusing to do those actions again. A forgiving God would forgive anyone who has a sincere heart no matter what religious beliefs they might have, or even if they have no religious beliefs at all. So you're not going to sell religious bigotry on an idea that religion is important for forgiveness. If your religion claims that it is required for forgiveness then you can be certain that your religion is false. |
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'mercy' isn't allowed to be meted out for thought crimes That statement makes absolutely no sense. |
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Edited by
CowboyGH
on
Sun 01/02/11 08:04 PM
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Cowboy wrote:
So why not offer forgiveness for those mistakes if forgiveness is truly searched for? If one repents from the sin(s) they previously committed why not forgive them and give them another chance? They obviously mean they are sorry for they are refusing to do those actions again. A forgiving God would forgive anyone who has a sincere heart no matter what religious beliefs they might have, or even if they have no religious beliefs at all. So you're not going to sell religious bigotry on an idea that religion is important for forgiveness. If your religion claims that it is required for forgiveness then you can be certain that your religion is false. God couldn't care less about "religious" beliefs. God only wants the best for us and for us to follow his few simple laws he has set out before us. You say God should forgive anyone with a sincere heart, how is God to give the forgiveness when he wasn't even asked for it? |
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