You make no sense at all. Here you claim that you agree that dogma is irrelavent, but just a moment ago you said:



Search the scriptures for the truth? But that's dogma. Doctrine. Written words.

Clearly you are not in agreement.

You also said,


If this is true then I'll have to wait until I'm a broken soul full of remorse before I can find God. I can't imagine when that might happen. I haven't done anything in my life that I feel remorseful about, other than save for truly STUPID MISTAKES which would be utterly stupid to feel remorseful for since I didn't make those mistakes on PURPOSE. And they certainly couldn't be viewed as "sins" by any definitions that I'm aware of.

Having men groveling for God simply because they were CREATED to be weak sniffling inferior beings certainly woudln't say much for God.

What kind of a God would even want to be worshipped by such inferior morons? Why bother creating such weak inferior beings in the first place? This would imply that God somehow get's off on having people grovel for his mercy.

That in itself is not a pretty picture of a God.

For me to even believe in the God you describe is a completely and utterly uninviting picture to me. As I have often stated, atheism is far prettier. I'd rather just cease to exist when I die than to be the victim of some egotistical godhead who gets off on watching people grovel for his mercy.

You just aren't painting a very pretty picture of a loving God here.

Sorry.

You can't even GET to this God through love! The ONLY way to this God is to become a sinner full of remorse. Should I go out and murder a bunch of people? I'm sure I would feel guilty as hell if I did that, and full of remorse and regretfulness.

Would your God be PLEASED with me then?

Since the beginninig of this discussion you have been quoting misquoted scriptures from different organized religions, ...that is the dogma of which I speak.; the dogma of man made organized religions.

(Yet, even in the fullest sense of the word, this could be considered true in the spiritual, but that is far beyond the scope of this discussion.)

So you see?....just because something doesn't make sense to YOU, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.

ie ...The Bible

Well, if I need to become a broken man who is full of sin and remorse to win the favor of the biblical God, then all I can do is say that I'll place my FAITH in the HOPE that it's as false as it can possibly be.

I want no parts of a God who lusts only for broken down remorseful sinners and condemns all the rigtheous people to eternal damnation.

You can keep him all to yourself.

Ab... You are getting closer to the truth, in fact right on it.:

Matthew 9:12-13
On hearing this, Jesus said "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: 'For I desire mercy, not sacrifice'.For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Well, you know Sparrows, you and I might be in more agreement than I realize.

When I read that I took it at face value and accepted it. From this I concluded that there is no need for me to be 'saved' by Jesus because by his own proclamation (according to Matthew) he came for the sinners, not for me.

But the problem with the Christians is that they then go rooting around in the wrintings of Paul in Romans and find Paul spouting off that no man is without sin and all have fallen short of the Glory of God.

So then you're stuck right back at square one again in conflict with the words that Matthew attributes to Jesus himself.

So round and round it goes.

The only think I can conclude on a personal basis, if that if this convoluted collection of stories has anything at all to do with our creator, I must already be home free. Because I feel no need to do anything to get closer to God.

In fact, in my current "spiritual practices", which are indeed associated with various traditions of "Witchcraft and Faerylore" are in no way a "search" for God. On the contrary, they are an interaction with God. A "play" with God, much like a child plays with their loving parent.

So in a sense I can say that I must have found my "salvation" a very long time ago. But the rest of the book still makes no sense to me. But then again, if it's all about sinners that explains why it makes no sense to me.

YW

Thanks for the opportunity to share what 'I think I think'

might not be all that much of a contradiction.

1. nobody's perfect

and

2. just be righteous

these don't appear to have to be in conflict.

then it doesn't matter what religion you are
Jesus is there for the sinners as a counterexample
and we can all improve but the good will flourish
bringing us all closer to the ideal

As a metaphor I accept it. As a metaphorical religion it's just as valid as any other religion.

The problem is that once it's taken to be literal truth and Jesus is held up as the "Only Begotten Son" of God, this automatially demands that all other religions are necessarily FALSE.

Why? Because of the demand that Jesus was the ONLY begotten son of God. This is basically the same as saying, "Only this religion is true, and all other religions are necessarily false".

So as a metaphor I have no problem with the religion (other than the fact that its biblical stories are still in gross contradiction with each other). Although if it's just a metaphor who cares?

So yes, as a metaphorical religion I have no problem with it. But as soon as it's held up as some sort of 'literal truth' then I totally reject it as being utterly absurd and full of contradictions.

That's my stance.

As far as I'm concerned all religions are metaphors. I have no problem with people recognizing my religion as a metaphor. I'll be the very first to confess that this is precisely what it is!

religion is ethics
and the study of the origin of nature and life
and the meaning of life
religion is primarily philosophy

Sounds cool to me.

Religion = man working to appease God or attain some goal.

True Spirituality = man accepting the unmerited favor and love of the God who created him ; allowing The Spirit of God to live in and work through him.

Religion = a job

True Spirituality = a relationship