LMAO!...Virgin Mary without sin? Everyone knows? Creates inept beings just so he can judge them to be inept? No man is responsible for being bad because God created him to be bad?
I particularly like the part where you say "it doesn't make sense" then go on to use the word "Therefore" LMAO again!

oh,btw The roman catholic church did not even exist at the time the Book of Romans was written, or was that part of the comedy routine?
Where do you come up with this stuff???....To funny

You talk about people making assumptions. You have absolutely no clue who you are even talking to.

I have indeed studied the scriptures with an open heart and an open mind. In fact, at one point in my life it was my intent to teach the "Word of God". Thus I set out to learn the stories as best as I possibly could for the express purpose of helping other people understand them.

Part of what drove my quest in this areas was my observation that even preachers disagreed with each other are certain interepretations of things in the Bible.

I was extremely naive! I went at it with an OPEN HEART and as much sincerity as any human can muster. I was taught that the Bible contains all the answers, and I was determined to find them and sort them out so that I can explain them clearly to others.

What did I find in my studies?

I found that, not only does the Bible not contain answers, but it also contains utterly absurdites and extremely vague and confusing things. The more I studied the Bible the more questions I had (not more ANSWERS!)

I finally realized that I could not teach this to anyone, because it is utterly nonsensical and absurd. I could not justify anything in the book. In fact, I could clearly see where the authors of the various books were in total conflict with each other. Even among the gospels in the New Testament.

No only did I realize that these stories were unsupportable, but I came to the very real conclusion that there is no reason for me to even believe them!

I didn't even STOP there! Once I got my head out of that absurd book and took the blinders off I looked around at life around me. What did I see?

Well, first I realized that all of the people who worship these Abrhamic religions are at odds with each other over what they supposedly mean, from the Jews, to the Muslims, to the Catholics, and to the myriad of confused and protesting Protestants.

None of them could get a handle on this book. Nary a one! So I was not alone!

Moreover, it then came to my attention that that greatest minds of all humanity looked over this book and rejected it. Isaac Newton studied the Bible even more than he studied physics and mathematics, and his conclusion was the same as mine, Jesus could not have possibly been the son of Yahweh.

Albert Einstein also recognized the asburdity of the Biblical God and make that quite clear. In fact, Einstien pointed to Buddhism as being the most sane of the spiritual philosophies.

I also studied the Eastern traditions of Mysticism. I found something quite interesting in those studies. There exists a form of Buddhism called Mahayana Buddhism that teaches precisely the same things the biblical gospels attribute to Jesus. Moreover that form of Buddhism was at its peak precisely at the time when Jesus was supposed to have lived and been crucified for blaspheme.

I've come to realize that Jesus most likely was indeed a Mahayana Buddhist who tried to teach those male-chauvinistic Hebrews some genuinely morals. He was then crucified by those people and ultimately held up in the New Testament like a dead marionette doll whilst they shoved words in his mouth and proclaimed that he was the sacrificial lamb of Yahweh, the very teachings that Jesus himself rejected!

So your assumptions about my understanding of religions is a totally wrong assumption on your part. I've studied the Bible to the point there I am throughly convinced that it can never be made to be a consitence story in any case.

And this is precisely why all the Abrahamic-based religions are in such constant conflict and turmoil with each other. They are all based on a completey insane and absurd story that cannot even be made to make any sense at all.

And that's just the TRUTH.

Tell that to the Catholics and see how far you get.

Hey, like I say, if you want to believe that you are a knowingful sinner against your creator and he had to have his son nailed to a pole to pay for you blatant rebellion against him, then more power to you.

But don't try to get me to fall for that one. I know better.

You may as well be selling Zeus.

Thank you for your sincere heartfelt reply...refreshing

I do agree with you; the Bible does not contain all the answers. But it never was intended to. Instead the Bible points to where the answers can be found.The Bible is not the reality any more than a dot on mapquest is the real destination. However I am surprised that you have not seen the difference between man made christianity and the real thing...why is that???

I feel that I have seen the difference.

The man made version of Christianity demands that Jesus was the son of Yahweh sent to pay for the sins of man.

In terms of "reality" there is no such thing as "real Chrisitanity", IMHO.

In other words, it is my conclusion that there is no such thing as "The Christ" and Jesus most certainly wasn't "The Christ".

I see Yahweh as being nothing more than a man made Godhead no unlike Zeus (in fact quite similar to Zeus actually).

And I see Jesus as a Mahayana Buddhist, who was doing the work of a Bodhisattva trying to teach his brothers the wisdom of the the Far East.

In is my humble opinion, that everything that these authors attributed to Jesus makes sense in that context. Especially if you weed out their false notoin that Jesus was "The Christ".

For example, they have Jesus saying "I and the Father are one". Well, that's Eastern Mysicism. The belief that we are a manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

These biblical authors are the ones who are attempting to claim that by "The Father" Jesus was referring to Yahweh.

They also have Jesus saying, "Before Abraham was, I am".

Once again, they try to take that out to mean that Jesus was claiming to be Yahweh. But if taken in the Eastern Mystical concext Jesus was merely trying to say that his spirit existed even before Abraham made up his God.

Jesus said, "Ye are Gods". That the Eastern Mystical view.

Jesus said, "Whatever you do to your bother you do to me". Again, that's the mystical view.

Jesus said that heaven is at hand. Jesus said that heaven the kingdom of God is within you. And so on.

Plus his moral teachings are in perfect harmony with the moral teachings of Buddhism, and not at all in harmony with the teachings attributed to Yahweh.

Yahweh taught people to judges others to be sinners and to stone the sinners to death.

Jesus taught that we should not judge others, and he clearly did not support stoning sinners to death.

Yahweh taught an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

Jesus taught to turn the other cheek and forgive those who trespass against you.

There is nothing in anything that Jesus taught that even agrees with the teachings of the ficticious God of Yahweh.

But everything that Jesus taught is in perfect harmoney with the teachings of Mahayana Buddhism.

So when you speak about "real Christianity", my reply is that there is no such thing. The very idea of "Christianity" is the idea that Jesus was "The Christ" (i.e. the sacrificial lamb of Yahweh).

Since I see no reason to believe that Yahweh was anything more than a Zeus-like myth, and I see Jesus as a Mahayana Buddhist who taught against the teachings that had been attributed to Yahweh, then I have absolutely no reason to believe that Jesus was "The Christ".

Therefore, as far as I'm concerned, there is no such thing as "real Christianity". It's all just one big misunderstanding.

no one has really addressed my earlier point
which is:

if there is only one God then any God that you
believe in is that God. The rest is merely ritual.

So - it is pointless to discuss which God is
the correct one if there is only one....



So Christian, Jew, Muslim... same God.
You worship your way - it is as good as mine as
long as you are working towards emulation of
God.

Buddhist, Taoist, Wiccan....same God.

No God makes no sense and Multiple Gods makes no sense.

So there you have it.



Gotta love monotheism!!

Woohoo!

Well, I'm in complete agreement with you on that one. And I certainly don't mean to be trying to talk people out of belieiving in their version of God. Even though it may appear that I try to do this.

And if everyone saw things the way you do Slow, there would be no religious debates, or disagreements.

But clearly most of the believers in the Abrahamic religions are not in agreement with you. Sparrows, for example, simply points out that he can find verses in his book that appear to disagree with your views. And his belief is that this book contains the only true word of the only true God.

So it's more than just believing that there is only one true God. It actually comes down to the idea that only one book contains the true word of that one true God.

And that's where the problems arise.

Thank you for your reply. I now see where you are coming from. To bad... you were right on the edge!, then turned to another organized religion and got sucked in.
Man made religions, no matter how "good" can never bring life. Doctrine, Dogma, and Rituals can never bring Life. It is only the Spirit of the One and Only Living God that can give Life...Life abundantly.

No fair putting words in my mouth that I didn't say nor do I believe. Perhaps you two could get a better handle on me if you asked a few questions instead of presuming, and assuming. The above statements about my beleifs are incorrect again.

I haven't gotten sucked into any organized religion. If you're going by my profile, I only chose Buddhist/Taoist so I could post to those boards. That was a technical convenience for this particular web site and has nothing to do with my true spritiuality in any "dogmatic" sense.

I'm a free spirit. I don't follow any dogma. As far as rituals go I perfer the rituals of the Celtic witch, as I find them to be the most divine. However, the way in which I use them is entirely personal and is not the slightest bit dogmatic.

If you truly believe what you've posted above, then why do you bother arguing to support the biblical doctrine or the organized "Christian" religion?

Wiccans do not worship only one god

I think that depends on how you view it. I'm not a Wiccan myself, but I am involved with rituals that are quite similar. In fact I've recently been refining my archetypal scheme. I currently worship three Goddesses; Inanna, Cerridwen, and Hecate. You might see that as being three seperate deities. I also worship with several male gods. Not to mention communing with various elemental spirits, pixies, and consciounesses associated with the witch's Qabalah.

To a casual observer it may appear that I worship an entire pantheon of gods, goddesses and spirits. But from my perspective they are all facets of the great spirit, just like I am a facet of the great spirit. These are various forms of Yin, Yang, and other consciousness of the cosmic spirit.

So is it one God? Or many in one?

Ultimately I'm a pantheist. (i.e. All-is-One)

So they had all better be manifestations of the same God or my pantheistic view breaks down.

Many witches are pantheists like me, some are animists, some are indeed polythesistic as you suggest. But I think it would be wrong to say that all Wiccans are polytheistic. From what I've read that would be incorrect.

Also, if you look at Christianity, they too have a trinity; The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They also have a multitude of saints that they believe in, many also believe in the Virgin Mary, not to mention angels, and let's not forget about Satan, a very important part of their pantheon.

Yet they call that a "monotheistic" religion.

In fact, I even think of Inanna, Cerridwin, and Hecate as a "trinity" known as the Maiden, Mother, and Crone. Not at all unlike the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit of Christianity. Although I wouldn't use that as any sort of direct analogy.

It's just a spiritual archetype.

Everything Yahshua taught was in perfect harmony with Yahweh.

Yahshua said he was the word. Yes indeed the Word of Yahweh made flesh.

The I Am that Moshe saw. He said he did nothing of himself but that which the father Yahweh told him to.

Hence the word of Yahweh.

No one has seen Yahweh and lived.

Yes this is because as the Word as an Obedient son he did as his father commanded him to do.

This is why he was Yahweh in the so called OT.. I prefer to call the Scriptures as they are The Scriptures no break.

To split them up was a huge injustice by man as if Yahweh made a mistake and had to correct something.

The stonings were examples. Never was they a have to be law. mercy always triupmented in all the scriptures.

Where u see a stoning it was an example to the people of Rebellion.

Rebellion is as the sin of Witchcraft.

Witchcraft is not the same today as it was then. Todays witchcraft is a closer akin to Phsycolgy. Where a person inters someones mind and makes them believe things that are not true. A leading edge. Yet we do not recongnize it for what it is. It is a hidden art that has always been.

Demon possessions are those that are freely entered into by an unsuspecting person to cause division inside the individual to go against the basic commandment. Honor your Father and Mother the 1st commandment with Promice.

Thats what we have seen the last 50+ years a degrading of the 1st commandment with promice.


If we would just adhere to this one simple command we would all be a much happier ,peaceful world.

That is what Yahshua slammed but it was not the Law of Yahweh it was the manmade law of Yahweh we see today. We know better.

The family connections are very strong throughout the Scriptures for they bring Harmonious lives to all.

Yes the Scriptures have been messed with but mainly in the Pharisidical tone of Man knows best. The ministers of Satan who twist the scriptures for Power. All Power an All knowing Power that comes from them. Yoyu must havce them to understand the Scriptures which is in direct contrast to the Law and The prophets now they are Prophets of Profit and thier greed for power has turned many like u to search for a reason to throw the Baby out with the Bath water.

Yahweh does not condemn the people for thier rebellion of the establishment for he is Just and True and Holy. No Respector of persons. Throughout the scriptures.

The condemned are the ones practicing these ways that lead to thier power on earth as Yahweh's children are a people not of this world but yet in it.

Yahshua is coming back for the same reason as he came the 1st time but this time with a Rod of Iron against all those who teach another Way. He is the Way the Truth and The life. Noone comes to the father but through him.

So they are rejecting his blood sacrafice and during the 1000 year regein when he does come back Sacrafices as Before him will come back. A tool of learning what we are doing to ourselves. Nothing New under the Sun said His Grandfather Solomon. The Preacher.

Sins can be forgiven as we see David had great sins but Yet had a Heart for Yahweh. He turned when he seen he was wrong.

Thats what we do not see today and for that many will suffer.

The Scriptures do not anywhere say we go to Heaven when we die.

It says we have no Knowledge we can not praise Yahweh for we are in the grave. he refered to death as Sleep.

Yet millions believe or say they Believe Yahshua was the 1st born of the Dead.

How can this be so. It is so because sleep is like death when you die the next thing you will know is the awaking out of sleep.

All in accordance with Scripture.

Acts 26:22-23
than those which the prophets and Moses said would come — 23 that the Messiah would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles."
NKJV

He did exactly that.

Acts 20:28-31
29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
NKJV

Been happening for 2000 years.

But what it Just about death and sleep?

1 Cor 15:51-57
1 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

55 "O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?"

56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
NKJV

Notice verse 56 is all to telling what the wolves are doing this very instant to The Law of Yahweh.

You are very near in some assumptions as the Scriptures even say what you have deemed the Elohim of the world as. For it is true and even Yahshua told us where and by telling us where he told us who the world is worshipping. What a trick Satan/Helel has played on those who wish for power of this life.

Tell me who these scriptures are speaking of Abra? Its on your tongue all the time yet your despise for the Religions of the world keep you and the whole world it says is decieved so they must be worshipping someone they do not understand. Who is this speaking of?

Rev 2:12-17

"And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write,

'These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword: 13 "I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. 14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. 15 Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

17 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the Assemblies. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it."'
NKJV


You have studied deeply I know think who this is speaking of and many questions you have will have already been answered.. Blessings of Shalom...Miles

That's an interesting view. I personally don't see things that way. From my observations of the people around me, it's not the children that are becoming more rebellious of their parents, but rather it's parents who are simply becoming far worse mentors.

I think much of this has to do with our modern society in general. Parents tend to go off to offices or factories to work, as opposed to working at home on small farms etc.

Parents tend to be more selfish and simply don't spend as much time with their children. Parents became to reliant on allowing their chidlren to become engrossed with television, computer games, etc. And actually often use those media as "babysitters" at early ages where the young children really need attention.

By the time most children reach an age where they *can* rebel the damage has already long-since been done because of lack of good mentoring on the part of the parents.

So I don't see this in any way being related to Children who don't honor their parents, but rather as parents who have simply become lazy incompetent mentors.

Besides that, just look at the Ten Commandments. What SENSE does it even make for a God to make a commandment commanding little childern to honor their parents?

If those commandments had genuninely been written by an all-wise supreme being the messages and commandments would have been to the parents NOT to the children!

The commandment would have read, "Thou shalt honor your offspring and diligently try to mentor them with loving care, understanding, and patience."

The mere fact that these commandments were written by the authoritarians trying to command the younger people to just shut up and obey their elders is just yet another dead give-a-way that these commandments weren't written by any GOD.

I was referring to the Goddess and God of Wicca.

But there are many other gods in the religion also.

Female and Male, yin and yang, etc.. are opposites that make balance.

Are they one though?

I don't perceive it that way.

Most definately. Also though parents are children and if they follow the precepts of Yahweh it clearly says to bring up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not stray from it or will return.

We know this is a simple fact as much as sometimes i do not like to admit it i am doing things more and more like my parents.

The sad part is as u stated i grew up with a 1 household income and most my age and older at least (50) probally did. It has been in recent time mid to late 70's i would guess this changed as society took away the ways of being able in many instances of being able to make ends meet. So the 1 income family has vanaged except for the affluent which we as a nation wanted to flee from has taken over. Again power to make us a slave to mammon not only to a give me everything i can have and this is how we judge success IMO. To now as we see whats happening now things are getting even worse and the state/federal govt. our masters are telling us how we will bring up our children through legislation of laws because of the parenting values.

All prophecied would happen before the return of Yahshua.

2 Tim 3:1-9

But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud , blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of Elohim, 5 having a form of holiness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.
NKJV


A pretty good description of our day more than any other that I know of..Blessings...Miles

Actually, many do...

See:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_intr.htm

"About deities:

Depending upon one's point of view, Wicca can be considered a monotheistic, duotheistic, polytheistic, henotheistic, or atheistic religion, Hang onto your hat; this gets a bit complicated:


- Wicca is monotheistic (belief in a single deity): Some Wiccans recognize a single supreme being, sometimes called "The All" or "The One." The Goddess and God are viewed as the female and male aspects of this single deity."


or

"Wiccan believe that the spirit of the One, Goddess and God exist in all things."

http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/wicca.htm

etc.

Yes, Wicca as it is officially defined, embraces a very large spectrum of views. Including animism, pantheism, Eastern Mysticism, etc.

In fact, it's been pointed out to me on several occassions that I am indeed a "Wiccan" by definition, whether I choose to recognize this or not. I see what they are saying. I simple "fit" into the definition of Wicca, because that definition is indeed so loose.

So I guess, in all honesty, if I were given a list of religious checkboxes to choose from, and Wicca was among them, it would probably be the "best fit" for me of all recognized religions.

However, at the same time, I could probably check some other boxes that would be equally true, such as Taoism, Buddhism, Shamanism, and possibly some others. But again, only because those religoins are also quite diverse and loosely defined overall. I could not check a box that was extremely specific, like say, "Zen Buddhism" because I don't practice or follow that particular brand of Buddhism. Even Buddhism in general embraces a large spectrum of beliefs overall.

So techically I could qualify as being both a Buddhist and a Wiccan simultaneously.

In fact some Wiccans claim to be "Christian Witches". I personally find that to be an oxymoron. Mainly because it seems to violate the tentants of Christianity more so than the definition of Wicca. But the Christian Wiccans I've talked with don't seem to see any conflict of interest in that. So if it works for them who am I to say anything about it?

Well anyway...for those who claim there is a "One" or an "All"
it is the same one God of the Hebrews and Christians.

Says who? The Archangel Slowhand?

How can we be sure you're not Satan's little brother trying to trick us?

I've heard legends about a man on the forums named Slowhand.

http://users.csonline.net/designer/ideas/slow.htm