yes, people are not perfect... that is well established... hence - back to the beginning we go (i.e. the reason God sent his only Son to die for us)...

we are not expected to be perfect, only to aspire and believe...

some post about being "forced" or "persuaded" into one religion or the other, but isn't the rebuking of all religion the same thing [all be it in a different direction]?

Me? I choose to believe, what you do is totally up to you :).

No, it's not even in the same ballpark.

I'm not suggesting that if anyone doens't believe me they are rejecting God, or siding with some Satan.

I'm just offering food for thought for anyone who's interested. I'm not telling anyone that they need to reject this mythology.

I'm merely pointing out how absurd it is.

Let people make their own descisions after that.

Evangelists are telling people that they have failed thier creator and have even rejected him!

What a TERRIBLE thing to accuse someone of!

Evangelists are telling people that if they refuse to accept Jesus as their Savior they are rejecting God!

What a TERRIBLE thing to accuse someone of!

They better DAMN WELL KNOW, beyond any shadow of a doubt that what they are telling people is TRUE. Otherwise they are LYING to people!

Instead of claiming that these things are true (which is DISHONEST), they should just be telling people that they believe it and feel that it works for them and then see if they can convince anyone who is INTERESTED to believe the same way they do.

Running around claiming that the book is the WORD OF GOD when they don't KNOW that this is true, is actually speading a LIE.

At least what I'm doing is HONEST!

I'm telling people that im my opinion the book can't possibly be the word of an all-wise loving God beause the stories are neither all-wise, not loving!




I truly don't care what you believe on a personal level. I'm not trying to convince you of anything on a personal level. I post as a public service to anyone who might be interested.

In fact, I wouldn't even try to change your belief. However, if you started proslytizing to the person next to me, I'd probably offer my views to that person as well.

And that's all I'm doing on a PUBLIC forum.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.

Even though it may sound that way.

I'm just offering FOOD FOR THOUGHT.

I hope people are capable of making up their OWN minds.

Absolute Amazing..

We will take Darwins therory of evolution as the bible to believe in and That Great Grand pappy was a Gorilla but take scientific evidence that the earth was flooded at sometime.

No that has to be myth.

Just forget about the sea creatures that have been found close to the top of mountains. In the Desert... Old wood ect that should not be thier and ..well Thats fantacy right.


What world do we live in when thier is basically no proof at all that any mammal has ever turned into another species.

\ But this is politally correct right.

We need to look at things objectively and not through the eyes of this science book says it and that has to be.

When we as a society have to make up reasons why we absolutely hate the concept that we were put here for a purpose.

That we were created by an outside force we do not understand.

We do exactly what is happening today.. We are in chaos just like the scriptues say.. Don't believe me.

Read about our world today in IsaYah 28.

Where is the instruction book for how APES are to live a happy and peaceful life.

Do you have one?

I believe you probally read the instruction manual for your car or surround sound so you can get all that you paid for out of it.


Do you honestly believe in the complexidy of the Human body we were not given an instruction manual?

Thats what the Scriptures are.. Our instruction manual.. You hate to be instructed.

Being instructed has to mean we are inferior and at someones mercy,huh?

Well we are but, not if we hate the scriptures so much we can not see past our nose..

Blessings...Miles

I'm glad you do have a faith in God :) But I can tease a little bit :) I'm known for that gotta laugh a little. Mind to tell your name? Makes it easier to talk to yah thats a long one :)

I don't think he makes you guess. I was just lightening up a bit. I just know and have a faith it is true. I think one book that has stayed one of the best selling books in many years shows Gods work. I believe everything in that book is God inspiried. I think man can twist and use anything for his will wars are fought over religion since the being of time and if it wasn't religion it would be something else because that is the nature of man. We are always going to have that struggle between good and evil.

My name's James.

And I'm seriously not looking to 'convert' anyone.

I'm just bucking the proselytizers.

If someone wants to just peacefully believe in Christianity I would suggest the Christian forum. I never go there.

Yes, and I respect your views.

However, if you would like to debate it owl be glad to give you a myriad of reasons why I feel differently.

I think Jesus was just another snake oil salesman, only he was very good at it and had a better product.

Funny James I don't think you can if your not of that religion. I'll stay here and there :) maybe I can convert you one day :) lol smiles

I'm sure you would :)

That's always a possibility too, but I'd be glad to give arguments of why I don't think that's true.

And since no one can stop me, here I go!

First off, it seems to me that if Jesus was truly interested in using the religion to gain a following, why bother denouncing the old traditions? Why not just exploit them like most religious people do? Use the scriptures to point fingers at people and call them heathens and sinners.

Actually Jesus did do that to some extent according to the gospels. He was indeed pointing fingers at the scribes and Pharisees as being hypocrites. There are several verses in the gospels where gives a truly whiny and accusatory sermon where he starts out a whoe series of verses with something like:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!"

Sounds like me huh?

But other than putting down the religious authorities of his day, he didn't really seem to be out to gain control of a mob to push an agenda.

Of course, I suppose that all depends on how much credit a person gives to the gospels as being a verbatim account of his teachings.

I've come to realize that most of it is more than likely demagoguery stuffed in the dead mouth of Jesus to make it look like he was claiming to be the God of Abraham.

I confess that if I take the entire gospels as a verbatim recording of the words of Jesus, then I have to agree with C. S. Lewis. Either Jesus truly was the sacrificial lamb of the God of Abraham, or he was a lunatic like you suggest.

It is possible that he was indeed a lunatic.

There's no way anyone is going to convince me that he was the son of the God of Abraham, that makes no sense at all. For that to be true the God of Abraham himself would need to be a lunatic.

However, to get around thinking of Jesus as a lunatic I've realized two things.

1. He most likely was not the sacrificial lamb of the God of Abraham.

This leads directly to the second conclusion:

2. Therefore, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that the gospels are a verbatim account of what Jesus taught.

On the contrary if Jesus was not God, then there is absolutely no reason to believe that the gospels should be trusted to be anything more than the biased opinions of men who were attempting to use Jesus to prop up the authority of their churches.

So should we just toss them out altogether as being totally made up fiction?

Some people do!

However, what I think might have happened is that some guy named Jesus really did try to teach love instead of hate. He denounced the hateful ways of the Old Testament and preached love and forgiveness instead.

He was crucified for blaspheme.

After all, people need to realize that Jesus would have appeared to the Jews much the same as I appear to Christians today.

Jesus was basically denouncing THEIR DOGMA!

I guess in a way I'm like the second coming of Christ.

Anyway, after the Jew succeeded in having Jesus crucified, there were many rumors about who Jesus was and what he stood for. Like the rumors of Elvis, some people even claimed to have seen him after he died.

So there was this miraculous 'resurrection' element to the rumors.

The religious authorities were losing their grip on the masses and the rumors of Jesus were spreading like wildfire but there was no DOGMA attached to them, and there were many diverse opinions about who he was and what he stood for.

So about a half a century after he died some determined religious fantatics who had the authority and staff decided to write their own version of the rumors. They jumped on the rumors of the ressurection as being "proof" that Jesus was indeed the son of God!

And they tailored the story to support this ideal.

However, they were limited in what they could shove into the mouth of this famous dead man. Everyone already knew that he had denounced the viscious ways of the Old Testament and taught love and forgiveness instead. So they couldn't very well, change that and make the story BELIEVABLE to the people of that time.

They were stuck with having to make up stories that make it appear that Jesus somehow changed the laws, but at the same time didn't.

They were very clever in how they went about this. Personally I think they failed miserably. In fact, I believe that many people at the time felt like me.

But the problem was that the people who wrote these scriptures and demanded that they be the "Holy Scriptures and Word of God" demanded that no one should question this VERSION of the rumor becaus thie is the OFFICIAL version!

In fact, if you questioned it they would KILL you, and they DID!

They MURDERED tons of people who refused to accept there version of the story!

Finally people started to accept it just to keep the PEACE and save their own NECKS!

Being a Christian wasn't a matter of FREE CHOICE in those days.

Anyone ever read any HISTORY?

Did anyone ever hear of the Library of Alexandria and how the Chrisitans destoryed ALL THE PAGAN TEMPLES that weren't Christian?

This DOGMA was FORCED onto the people via BLOOD SOAKED SWORDS!

Stop reading the Bible long enough to read a few REAL HISTORY BOOKS!

Jesus was a VICTIM of the VERY blood thirsty RELIGION that he himself was crucified for having DENOUNCED!

That's my story and um stick'in to it.

You'll have to crucify me to shut me up.

I'm doing the very same thing that Jesus did. I'm denouncing the very same hateful dogma that HE denounced!

That's where I'm coming from.

Isn't part of the teachings about Jesus that he was fully human? If he was then how could not have had a choice? If he had divine powers could he not have changed things?
What about Luke 22:42 "Father, if it be Thy will, take this cup away from me; yet not my will but Thine be done!" This seems to suggest that he could have chosen not to go through with the crucifixion.

Darwin does not suggest we were ever gorillas or monkeys only that we shared a common ancestor with apes.



The mountains haven't existed forever they rose up to become mountains at over time. It perfectly plausible to suggest that that land at some point was below sea level before it rose up to be a mountain.



Science may not have all the answers at this moment in time. If the universe took billions of years to form, then it is foolish to think we will be able figure it all out in short period of time human have existed. Scientists study the universe around us by developing hypotheses and testing them to see if they hold true or not. If you believe in god or not does not matter to the science. Maybe god started evolution, maybe it was aliens or maybe it was random spontaneous event. One can spend their time endlessly asking for forgiveness and guidance and intervention or you can get out their and do it.
The characters of the bible had no concept of the globe or even the complete expanse of the Earth. If everywhere you look you see flooding, it isn't a stretch to think one might believe it affects the whole world.



I could learn about the world in a writings that are thousands of years old or I go out learn about and find my place in the world for myself in the world instead of a book.



I've never seen an ape that needs an instruction book to know how to live its life.



Actually no I didn't. I'm a man, we don't read instruction manuals. I prefer to learn through experience. I didn't need it anyway.



Did you read an instruction manual before you learned to walk or talk? I don't hate to be instructed. I love learning and have in all had over seven years and counting of college courses. I see well past my nose in fact I can see well enough to see the lack of influence of a deity in my life and that everything I have and will have will be because of my hard work and of the blessings of a higher power.

But he did :)

Don't care if he actually did or not.

I know :) Thomas

If Jesus was truly the sacrifical lamb of the God of Abraham and was required to be butchered on a pole to pay for the sins of all humanity including myself, I would be gravely depressed and dispointed in mankind, myself, and God.

But isn't that proof in and of itself that it can't possibly be true?

For if it were true, I woudln't be able to give a damn.

Do you see?

God knew what men would do before they did it. He knew if he sent his son they would do this to him. He knows all things.

And he let it happen anyway. If god knows all things, why didn't he do right the first time instead of sending Jesus to fix his mistakes?

For Abra..Simplified:

God originally gave man AUTHORITY here on the Earth.

Satan tempted Adam and Eve and stole man's authority here on Earth.

NOW.....


Since ONLY a MAN could take back from satan ,

the authority he stole from the first man (adam ) ,

God HIMSELF became MAN ...thru Jesus Christ ...and DWELT AMONG US....

and died on that cross for our sins... AS THE SPOTLESS SINLESS LAMB OF GOD....

and paid the price for our sins....in full for us all......

and now because of what Jesus(the second Adam) did,

He was now able to TAKE BACK what the devil had stolen.


GOD HIMSELF PAID the PRICE IN FULL SO WE WOULDN'T HAVE TO.

NOW..thru US ACCEPTING Jesus Christ,

we ALSO are able to TAKE BACK what satan has

stolen in our lives!!!.


See...by God doing it the way He did Abra ,

GOD NEVER WENT AGAINST HIS WORD.

EVER.

See.....God gave satan(lucifer was his name actually) a free will also...

JUST LIKE GODD GAVE MAN A FREE WILL

and God CANNOT just go against ANYONE'S free will..ever....

not even satan's....

or else God would be breaking AND going against his Word!


BUT WHAT GOD DID ,AND THE WAY GOD DID THINGS, GOD DID JUSTLY.

Does this help you see WHY God did things the way He did now, Abra?