Thanks for the link MS.

It explains it pretty good. Seems to be about what I saw on TV.. It was really interesting..

Again Thanks MS.. May Yahweh's Blessings of Shalom be on You...Miles

Thank You Miles.

And May God's Blessings Be Upon You Too, Miles.

What? Didn't the Jews kill Jesus because he was bad for business?

Ayayay... I'm just gonna shut up before I offend somebody...

(((((((MahanMahan)))))))

Yeap your kind of right there. :)

Yeap what? I'm right that I should shut up before I offend somebody (I've been doing that a lot lately) or that I'm right that the Jews in charge were responsible for Jesus' death, as the Romans didn't care much which three offenders were chosen to die and would have just as easily released him... So which is it? I'm just curious...!

This is like saying, "If we ignore the overwhelming evidence and truly bend over backwards we can even get a few hold-out Christian scientists to support this absurd story."

I'm sure that's always true. We could probably support the stories of Zeus too if we were desperate to do so.

Personally I think the vast bulk of mainstream geologists and phsyisist would disagree that a global flood was possible, either in practice, or based on geological evidence.

However, this is totally irrelevant truly.

Look at it from a purely sane point of veiw instead.

Forget about the physics, and the impossibility that all the freshwater fishes survived the salt water contamination of all rivers lakes and streams. No to mention the impact that the freshwater rain that rose the oceans to such a height would have killed all marine life by saline depletion shock.

But let's forget about all those absurd technical details.

God can do ANYTHING right?

But let's ROLL with this!

If God can do ANYTHING why would he have bothered to rid the world of sinners using such a crude and sloppy method of execution?

Why bother killing all the animal kingdom and ruining the landscape and plants, and haveing to re-sort all the freshwater species and salt water species back into their proper pools after the flood and fix the saline contents back again?

Any aguarium hobbiest will tell you that it doesn't take much to scew up an aquarium environment. Many species of fishes are extremely sensitive to even small changes in saline content. Major abrupt changes can kill fish within hours or even minutes.

But again, let's forget about that.

God can do ANYTHING, so we can rest assured that he could have deal with his Earthy aquarium.

But more to the point - WHY BOTHER?

If God can do ANYTHING why not just give people who sin a heart attack? In fact, if he had been doing that all along he would have selected out the sinners and ended up with only people who are good.

This would have been perfectly within his RULES. After all his rule is that the wages of sin is death. He never said it had to be by drowning.

He's going to kill them anyway, why not do it INTELLIGENTLY?

Or don't we give God that much credit?

So if we look at it from the point of view of a supposedly ALL-WISE intervening FATHERLY type of MENTORING God, then why isn't he paying closer attention to his children and just kill off the sinners as soon as he notices them?

He could have been a truly wonderful PRODUCTIVE God that ended up with a large mass of saintly children.

Instad he lets the weeds grow and choke out the good people?

Even human gardeners know enough to pull out the weeds BEFORE they infest the entire garden!

The idea that he would just let things go until they got totally out of hand and then just flood out the entire population including new born babies and other very young obviously innocent children suggest that God is a truly UNWISE and poor manager of his human ant farm!

The whole story suggests that God is truly a klutz who has absolutely no mentoring skills whatsoever. It's an insult to the very idea of what a divine being should be.

Instead of scraping the bottom of the EXCUSE barrel in an attempt to salvage this mythology in a desperation to save a God who would need to truly be a bumbling idiot if these stories were true, why don't we consider the very simple possiblity that they are just more mythology?

We already know that mankind is WELL KNOWN for making up these kinds of stories.

The God of Abraham isn't all that different from Zeus! They both were angry jealous egotists who lusted for and were appeased by blood sacrifcies. Although I think the inventors of the God of Abraham truly were obsessed with that idea. They seemed to really LIKE that one!

But isn't it far more realistic to recognize that somewhere along the way there was a major local flood that sparked the imagination of story tellers to make up this story of Noah and the Ark?

I find the story impossible to believe just on the grounds that I don't believe that God is that ignorant. Forget about the technical details of how to accomplish such a messy deed.

If God is supposed to be a FATHERLY image that is supposed to CARE about his human CHILDREN, and the premise is supposed to be that he's ALL-WISE, then this story makes no sense because there is nothing WISE about this scenario at all.

It would represent poor mentoring, and poor management.

There are many mortal humans who could raise people better than this!

It's ridiculous.

Same thing goes with the story of the Caananites. God supposedly gave them 400 years to worship him. In the meantime he totally ignores them.

If you have a civilization that has totally abandonded you and they are TEACHING their CHILDREN their same FALSE religions, then you'd have to be a complete idiot to just sit by for 400 years and expect them to change!

If you're GOD and you're ALL-POWERFUL why not just make heathens sterile? Don't let them have anymore offspring!

They won't even last for 400 years that way. Unless of course they change their ways.

It would have been totally unrighteous for God to have kept creating new souls to be born to a totally heathen society anyway.

What kind of mentoring is that?

That would be like giving your children up for adoption to UNWORTHY PARENTS.

In order to believe that the Bible is the true word of God, we would have absolutely NO CHOICE but assume that God is a completely irresponsible idiot.

If you don't want your children to be heathens, then why introduce new babies into a heathen society?

That would be one hell of a dastardly thing to do!

If the Biblical account of God is TRUE, then God cannot be very wise at all. He would need to be a complete bumbling idiot, a horrible father, and have no mentoring skills whatsoever.

All he seems to know how to do is to demand blood sacricices and threaten to send people to eternal damnation.

Does that sound like an ALL-WISE LOVING God to you?

It doesn't to me.

To me it sounds like a stupid book that was written by male-chauvinist pigs who were using the excuse that God told them to murder sinners and heathens in order to justify their dastardly deeds.

The book has no more credence than Greek Mythology.

None whatsoever.

And notice too that this conclusion could be made LONG BEFORE Jesus ever even came into the picture.

And Jesus didn't agree with the teachings of this dastardly Old Testament either! He rejected these violent predjudiced teachings as well.

He taught moralities and behaviors that were far more in line with Buddhism. Something he probably learned since it was right next door to him in India at that time.

According to the Bible it was definitely the Jews who demanded the crucifixion of Jesus.

But can anyone blame them?

According to the Bible they were only following the commands of the God of Abraham.

The God of Abraham commanded the Jews to murder heathens where a heathen is simply anyone who disagrees with the WORD of the God of Abraham, and/or wants people to put some other God BEFORE the God of Abraham.

These criteria are clearly laid out in the Old Testament.

Jesus was a heathen twice-over by the very WORD of the God of Abraham according to the Old Testament.

1. Jesus denounced the directives of the God of Abraham.

The God of Abraham had commanded the Jews to judge people to be sinnners and to stone those that they judge to be sinners to death.

Jesus did not loan his support to the stoning of sinners to death, and he taught the Jews not to judge others. This was a direct violation to the teachings of the God of Abraham.

The God of Abraham taught the Jews to seek revenge, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth!

Jesus rejected the teachings of the God of Abraham and instead taught the Jews to forgive one another to turn the other cheek and not to hold grudges or seek revenge.

Again, Jesus rejected the teachings of the God of Abraham.

Moreover these moral principles are far more in line with the Teachings of Buddhism.

2. Jesus broke the First commandent of the God of Abraham and demanded that everyone must break it!

Jesus taught that he is the way and that no one cometh to the father but THROUGH him.

Jesus was demanding that the Jews put Jesus BEFORE the God of Abraham. That about as heathen as it can be!

Is it any wonder they called for his crucifixion?

They were only doing precisely what the authors of the Old Testament claimed that the God of Abraham demanded that they MUST DO!

The Jews were just trying to obey the mythology of the Old Testament.

No one could blame them for having Jesus crucified. Especially not the God of Abraham because according to the authors of the Old Testament he's the one who commanded them to murder heathens!

How Christianity ever got off the ground is beyond me.

It's a religion that is impossible to justify.

The only way to keep it alive is to continually scrape the bottom of the EXCUSE barrel trying to make excuses for all these utter asburdities.

And that's PRECISELY what religious people DO!

I would say all are responcible for his death he died for are sins. I'm sure the Jews didn't want there people to be turned in another direction. Yes the bible speak of them pushing the Romans to kill him because they wanted rid of him but didn't want to do it.

And remember Jesus in the Garden satan was temping him to say no but he knew he had to, to save us.

With a little imagination one could come up with a scientific explanation for The Wizard of OZ, of course that doesn't make it true and you'd have to ignore all the evidence to the contrary.

That's exactly right.

If we take the story to be true as held by the authors of the New Testament, then the only people who are responsible for the crucificixion of Jesus are those who accept that sacrifice in their name.

In fact, for any Christian to claim that that would have tried to prevent the crucifixion of Jesus is the very same thing as saying that they reject the sacrifice.

If a person is going to accept the sacrifical lamb of God they must be willing to nail Jesus to the pole themselves. If they aren't willing to do that, or they protest against that act, then they are rejecting the blood sacrifice.

So it would ludicous for a person to claim to be a Christian and not be willing to nail Jesus to the cross themselves.

If they refuse to accept the crucifixion, then they are rejecting the sacrifice in their name.

I most certainly do reject the sacrifice. If I were there I would have objected to the crucifixion. Especially if I believed it was God's plan.

I simply don't condone a God that is appeased by blood sacrifices.

If my creator is that demonic then so be it. I'd rather be sent to any place where he is not.

I don't condone God's that lust for, and are appeased by, blood sacrificies.

So even if I believed that the story was true I'd just be grossly disapointed to discover that I was created by such a blood thristy sadist, and I'd be totally depressed about the whole thing.

No way would I condone nailing anyone to a pole for my sake.

I'd go to hell first.

It would be against my moral principles to accept having Jesus nailed to a pole to pay for my sins.

The only way for me to appease this God of Abraham would be to defy my own sense of morality and condone his lust for blood sacrifices.

There would be no way for me to get to God though love.

The only way to get to my creator would be by condoning a horrific blood sacrifice performed in my name.

That would be worse than Freddy's Nightmares!

Let's all pray to the powers that be, that this horrific ancient mythology is nothing more than a sick demented story made up by men who were lusting to control the masses by claiming that they speak for God.

Let's all pray to the powers that be, that our creator is not such a calloused heartless jerk.

Let's hope that if there is a God, She's sane!

Let's hope that our creator genuinely knows the meaning of LOVE and isn't a cantankerous blood thirsty sadist who lusts to cast people into eternal damnation at the slightest sign of imperfection!

Let's all pray to the powers that be that God truly is love.

I really can't see how I am in anyway responsible for the death of a fictional character in a book that I did not write.

So sayth Abracadabra :)

Truly.

And for what purpose?

Here we have an ancient story that claims that we have all turned against our creator and need to seek salvation or be damned.

It's a story about a horrific God who is a male-chuavinist bigot who hates heathens.

It's a story that demands that we are responsible for our creator having to have his only begotten son nailed to a pole to pay for our sins.

Why would anyone want this story to be true?

Instead of looking at the obvious reasons why it's utterly absurd and can't be rationalized without truly bending over backwards to ignore sanity and embrace absurdities. Not the least of which is to believe that our creator is a compelte incompetent idiot who couldn't keep angels happy in heaven, nor humans happy on earth.

Would it be any wonder why no one likes this God?

I truly don't understand why people fight tooth and nail to keep such a horrid tale alive.

If there is love in this story a person really need to squint hard to see it and totally ignore all the thorns that are poking in their eyeballs in the meantime.

How people can be so supportive of these ancient horrible myths are beyond me.

You'd think they would give anything to discover that they are false.

In fact if they did discover they are false should they jump with JOY!

That would mean that we never fell from grace from our creator and he never had to have his son nailed to a pole to pay for our sins.

Who wouldn't jump for JOY to hear that NEWS!

At person would need to be a sadist to be disppointed to discover that the biblical stories are false.

Even the most devout Christian should be THRILLED to discover that the stories are false.

Who wants to be responsible for having Jesus nailed to a pole?

This story claims that it's OUR FAULT!

Why are people so anxious for that to be TRUE?

I'll never understand the motivation to support this story against all odds.

It makes no sense. I'd think people would be thrilled to discover that it's all a big lie.

Well if it is a lie who would know but if it is the truth would be ?????

well being catholic... i belive that Jesus did not have the choice, and that "Jesus handed over according to the definite plan of God"...

So for me, maybe your post should have been "What if God did not send his only Son to die for our sins..."...

but I also belive everyone has their own beliefs, and I do not try to change them...

I'm just putting it out there as food for thought as a public service announcement.

Let people make up their own minds.

If you want to believe that you have rebelled against your creator and have been so nasty that God had to have his son nailed to a pole to pay for your nasty behavior, then so be it.

More power to you!

By why demand that this is true for everyone?

Why create evangelists who try to push this negative picture of God and Humanity onto people who aren't even instested in hearing it.

And this is precisely what they organize to do!

http://www.web-evangelism.com/resources/bridge-strategy.php

Well, if they can do such a negative dastardly thing, then isn't it about time that someone used our freedom of speech to point out how absurd this negative religion is?

I confess that it upsets me that people PUSH this negative religion dismal religion so HARD.

I'm just pushing back.

I'm just offering another point of view.

The book was written by unscruplous men who were using God as an excuse to murder anyone who disagreed with thier book.

That makes PERFECT SENSE.

The idea that the book was inspired by an all wise loving God make NO SENSE AT ALL.

This is of course my very own humble opinion.

Ok, maybe not so humble. But in the face of such relentess proselytizing and evangelism I think it's only fair that people hear something that is totally opposite to that guilt-trip mindset.

I don't believe that I'm odds with my creator and need to condone having someone nailed to a pole to pay for my sins.

I don't do bad things.

If other people do then maybe they need redemption. This might be a good religion for them.

It's just not for me. I don't hate my creator.

That's NONSENSE.

But that doesn't mean that I'm going to believe a bunch of male chauvinist bigots who claimed to speak for God.

That would be ludicous.

or blasphemey??

What kind of a God would force people to guess?

That would be forcing them to gamble.

Moreover, what kind of a God would be mean to people who guessed wrong?

ESPECIALLY if they felt that God was BETTER than that?

God would need to look at me and say, "How dare you think I'm nice! You're going to HELL buddy!"

Does that make any sense to you?

The people who commited blaspheme may very well have been the men who wrote the bible and told people to stone sinners and murder heathens in the name of God.

Did you ever think about that?