Someone else would have been called 'messiah' and trotted out for us all to drool over and idolize...

It is the nature of that particular beast known as religion.

Once a prophesy is stated, repeated and inscribed in our books... someone, somewhere will find a way to convince us that it has happend and THEY control it and we must give the money to save us.

Look at what there doing now... The best they possible can to bring about the end times.

Forgeting that someone of real power actually controls that timeline.

Actually there were many messiahs prior to Jesus historically speaking. Many of them almost identical in many respects, especially having been born of virgins as the only begotten sons of God.

Jesus was just the mythology that stuck.

Why did it stick?

Because it became attached to a very hateful dogma that threated to condemn (or even outright murder) anyone who refuses to believe it.

The dogma is filled with threats to the readers reinforcing the main commandment, "Thou shalt have no other God's before ME!"

That's it's major theme.

God sends NON-BELIEVERS to HELL!

Non-believers are HEATHENS!

Non-beliverse are either possessed by or actually worship Satan, God's most evil enemy!

Either accept Jesus' as your savior and worship every WORD of the DOGMA as the HOLY SCRIPTURE WORD OF GOD, or you will be shunned by society, considered to be a dispicable evil person, and potentially even physically harmed or murdered!

In fact MANY people were murdered for simply refusing to convert to Chritainity.

It's a BLOOD SOAKED religion.

Just like it's BLOOD THIRSTY God that lusts for Blood Sacrifices even if they are its own son!

The religion is so filled with hatred that it just amazes me how any modern person can honestly believe that God could be such a heartless insensitve idiot.

Most humans that we meet on the street have more compassion and understanding than the God of Abraham has according to what the Bible demands that he must be like.

I can see how the religion was rammed down the throats of the masses back in the days when it was forced onto people by threat and sword.

But why modern people having yet been able to see through this horrific brainwashing scheme is beyond me. They rather worship a God that hates, than to consider that it might actually be a total manmade lie.

In fact, many of them are still brainwashed to FEAR that to even question the dogma is to question God himself!

There is a huge fear factor from this brainwashing scheme. To reject the Bible is to reject "The Christ" and to reject "The Christ" is to reject God! And to reject God will seal your fate as the eternal slave to Satan!

Is it any wonder why people are scared sh*tless to even CONSIDER the THOUGHT that the bible might be a lie?

What? Question Jesus?

You're CRAZY!

I'm not going to REJECT JESUS!

But that's exactly what the brainwashing scheme is hoping to instill in people!

To so much as QUESTION the validity of the Bible is to question the validity of Jesus, and that's a HUGE No-no!

You're possessed by SATAN to even THINK such a thing!

Yep, people are truly afraid to even THINK that it might not be true. For to do so is to ABANDON JESUS!

But that's a HUGE LIE!

Just to recognize that Jesus was not the son of the God of Abraham is not abandoning Jesus.

On the contrary, Jesus didn't even agree with the teachings of that God anyay.

Jesus was a victim of the men who used his history (assuming that he existed at all) to prop up this hateful dogma. The very dogma that Jesus himself REJECTED!

That's WHY he was crucified!

He was crucified for BLASPHEME!

For rejecting the WORD OF GOD! And for claiming to be a CHILD of GOD. Which even gospels CONFESS that made CLEAR that "Ye are all Gods"

He never claimed to be the "only begotten son" of God.

That was demagogurey that other people claimed. Jesus never made any such claim himself according to the very scriptures in the dogma.

Jesus was a victim of this religion as much as we are!

Assuming that he wasn't a total fabrication!

I believe he actually existed and did indeed preach against the teachings of the God of Abraham. That's why he was cruficied, and this is why the authors of the New Testament had no choice but to actually USE these teachings that the masses already KNEW about via rumors.

They put words in his mouth to try to twist it around to make it look like he was actually somehow supporting THEIR ORIGINAL dogma!

But in truth, Jesus had denounced that dogma and that's WHY he was crucified!

The New Testament was NOT written by Jesus. It's NOT the words of Jesus in whole. It was written by religious authoritarians who were using Jesus as a patsy to prop up the very dogma that he had denounced. The dogma of the God of Abraham.

People need to realize this.

It's perfectly reasonable to reject this hateful religion and support Jesus! Just realize that Jesus was a victim of this dogma too!

Look closely at the morals that that Gospels claim that Jesus taught.

Then ask yourself:

1. Are these more in line with the Old Testament?

2. Are these more in line with the teachings of Buddha?

If you can't see that Jesus was teaching the morals of Buddha and NOT the morals of the God of Abraham, then there's no hope for you.

In fact, Jesus CLEARLY rejected the judging of others and the stoning of sinners. Two things that were a main thread the whole way through the Old Testament.

Jesus also CLEARLY rejected the idea of seeking revenge as taught by the God of Abraham as in an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, and instead Jesus taught to forgiveness and to turn the other cheek (meaning not to seek revenge, and not to hold a gruge)

These are the moral principle of the Buddha and most certainly not the moral principles of the God of Abraham!

Jesus was used as a patsy by the authors of this hateful vicious dogma!

Jesus was a VICTIM.

First he was nailed to the cross for having denounced the teachings of the God of Abraham.

Then later he was crucified again when he was nailed to the Old Testament by the authors of the New Testament who tried to claim that he was the SON of the God of Abraham sent to be a sacrifical lamb to pay for the sins of man!

That an atrocity!

To worship Christianity is to worship the enemies of Jesus!

Jesus was a VICTIM!

And he MOST CERTAINLY was NOT the son of the God of Abraham. Jesus didn't even agree with the teachings of that ancient FALSE dogma!

WAKE UP PEOPLE!

You've been DUPED!

Most likely Jesus said no I don't want to die, but what could he do if he was in a prison cell.

Most noteable humantarians recorded in history are usually persecuted or assassinated.

Why?

Because they threaten power of a few individuals who want to keep to their luxurious lifestyles. I say this because I always see Romans as an arrogant civilization ( especially of those of aristrocatic level) at the time claiming to be the world power when in reality it was a falling empire.


Now if Jesus did want to die to prove a point to mankind how cruel they are with their own people in hopes that it would be recorded as a lesson to not repeat them, then I must sadly announce that mankind unfortunately didn't learn anything from his sacrifice.

For thousands of years later mankind continues to slaughter each other for the very reasons they slaughtered back then.

It is a sad part of history and it is even worse when I watch people enjoy the scenery of a man on a cross bleeding and suffering to death when they go to their local churches. The nails on his feet and hands and just thought of how he was being humiliated by Romans and Jews at the time supporting the decision their Emperor made.

Just think of the Romans who watched the gladiators kill each other and the crowd screaming in cheer for it. These are the people who were skeptical of different idealogies unaccustomed to what they are use to, which probably led to the support and decision of sacrificing such brilliant minds who wanted to only improve society.

Today people still tend to enjoy this and even expect to see it on television. While competitions aren't of killing yet, but sometimes I think that the trend will eventually come back to where people wouldn't mind to watch such competitions until the death. Just look at UFC - Ultimate Fighting Competitions where two men or women fight in a cage until one breaks a nose, loses teeth, or breaks a bone until being unconscious.

Look at the many shows and movies full of negativity of violence as if it is a daily protein shake people need to have to survive the day.

If I learned anything about the events of Jesus then it would be that good humantarians risk their lives trying to teach peaceful coexistence with one another and that is the reason why not many choose that path because it may risk their life in doing so.

How many people do you know that will stand up for civil rights and promotion of peaceful coexistence when it comes down to it?

These people in my books are the true heroes of our world.

Jesus's efforts are truly misunderstood by many throughout the world.

There is no what if about it. It just is :)

Phew! Abra, I 've read your post on this thread and I understand your plight. Your discouragement, your anger and your frustration. I know you are not particularly happy with the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.I do understand.

My reason for understanding is because i too had faced many of these same dilemas. I was angry at God when I read about the atrocious acts He placed on some people. I thought He was a cruel God and how can I ever love Him.

Many times I cried. I was very sad about what I had read. I thought there must be a reason for this. Why would He do this? Why would He destroy His creation? I was determined to find out. So I began my search.

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. "

"And it repented the Almighty that He had made man on earth, and it grieved Him at His heart."

"And the Lord said,I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast ,and the creeping thing,and the fowl of the air; for it repented me that I have made them."

People became despisers of all that is good. Of all that was for their own good, of all that would give them peace,order,health,wealth & prosperity God's way and became lovers
every evil thing. They raped women and young girls and took as many as they would have (adultery). Bearing children from them and not care for them even taking wives and would rid her when he did not want her anymore placing a burden on society to care for her and her child.Even boys.

They would (steal) cattle(and goods) from their neighbors and from their tents. They would (murder) their brothers for their goods and for their women (covet). They would deal dishonestly with each other in every evil way (unloving). They would (bear false witness )against the innocent to get ahead.They physically and psychologically abused their servants and made them work seven days without proper rest and nourishment.Refusing to allow them to rest on the (Seventh Day).

The Almighty revealed Himself to them and gave them promises of Blessings, Prosperity and Health if they would obey His rules. When the Almighty brought order to a chaotic society, they rejected civility, they rejected God's plan .And so they decided to create their own gods and even created useless (carved images )of them to worship them instead of their Creator. These useless (carved images) are called idols(idolatry).They did what was right in their own eyes, thinkin they were wiser.

Things were out of control and many innocent people suffered because of the behavior of the unruly. He had to stop them. And that He did.When they believed they knew best and so went their own ways and they lived by their own rules,things got worse.

And this is when judgement fell on them. Justice had to prevail for the helpess and the innocent. Not only that,evil soared and so the only way to get rid of evil is to obliterate it. It must be banished for good never to return else it will come back and contaminate the good then multiply itself and become even greater.

The Almighty God has a plan for us all. Even those who were innocently slain. In the eyes of man it seems their life was snuffed out. But all things are spiritual, they will live again, and they will be restored. We cannot out do or out give God. His plan for us is far beyond what we could ever think or imagine. He is just. His intelligence is bigger than all the minds of the world. After all ,who else can cause the earth to spend on its axle without stopping. Who orders the sun to rise and set? Who keeps the stars from raining down on us? Who designed all the planets to look different?

Its not easy because there will always be some unanswered questions but when the time of fulfillment comes they will be answered.I no longer angry at the Almighty. He has proven Himself to me and given me Faith. Faith I never had before. I sure hope you give Him another chance someday to answer your unanswered questions.

I think your focus was distorted. You put to much trust in men. But they dont have all the answers. Ask God to show you. To show you.In spite what the scriptures say. There are things still to this day that I not sure about in the bible. But I bypass imperfect man and go straight to HIM. I pray that you will find an ounce of strength in your heart to do the same.REMEMBER men are fallen creatures and you cant take everything they say at face value. Go To GOD. He'll show you.

Thanks for sharing!

Well, in any case, the world would be a different place.

How so :) What would it be like :)

There is no way of knowing. We would just have to guess. But the problem with any "what if" scenario is that it is 100% speculation.

If he didn't die on the cross we would not use them as a symbol.

The Catholic church may never have been formed.

The countries like spain who conquered much of the world may not have done anything.

America may have been settled by the Vikings.

You could go on forever.

He would not could not with a fox, he would not could not in a box...

If you feel that I had a plight, or that I was discouraged, or angry, or frustrated, then you don't understand a thing.

All I did was recognize that a dogma that humans believe to be the word of a God cannot possibly be true.

It's a very pragmatic and sober view. It's not an emotional reaction at all. It doesn't matter to me that the Bible is a lie. That's doesn't change reality one iota.

To me it's no different from the fact that Zeus is pure mythology.

Why should I even care?

Keep in mind, I was born into this lie. I seriously doubt that I would have ever bought into it on my own if it hadn't been spoon fed to me as a child.

If I felt anything at all, I felt disapointment to realize that adults aren't nearly as intelligent as I had given them credit for being. The mere fact that they couldn't see the absurdity of this manmade doctine still baffles me to this very day.

It's so obviously false I seriously can't understand how any sane human being can act like it has any merit.

No emotion required.



Well, again, you're obviously a very emotionally-driven person which makes sense. Most deeply religion peopel are driven more by emotion than reason. They NEED to believe in something, and they usually also need to believe in something that other people will support. They can get tons of support with this religion. That's a given.



Of course you do. You probably couldn't handle the emotional repercussions of the realization that you've been duped by mere mortal men who had unscruplous agendas.



No. You put trust in men if you believe the Bible is the word of God, because men actually wrote it and it's not the word of any God.



Of course they don't and that's why it's a lie when people tell you that the Bible does. Because the Bible was actually written by men and it's totally false, inconsistent, and can't possibly be true.

When I say that God would need to be a monster if the Bible were true, that doesn't imply that I think God is a monster. All it mean is that It's crystal clear to me beyond any shadow of a doubt that the Bible was written by egotistical male-chauvinist pigs who used God as an excuse to murder their enemies by simply labeling them "heathens" and claiming that God told them to murder them.



And you think I haven't done this?

As far as I'm concerned Jesus has been invited into my life for over 40 years now. If he truly exists as some sort of spirit then it's up to him to make the next move. If he hasn't so be it. But if he does exist he most certainly couldn't claim that I didn't ask. If he is a truthful person worthy of speaking truth, he would need to confess that he was the one who did not respond.

And I'm not even upset about it. I totally forgive him. He's probably dead and just can't help it. Besides, according to the men who wrote the Bible the only thing I would have needed to be saved from is his wrath anyway.

If he's not here to save me then he's not he to unleash his wrath upon me. If he ever does show up I'll be glad to embrace him and welcome him as my loving brother. If he's peeved about something that's his problem not mine.

You're under the delusion that Jesus is the God of Abraham so none of what I say here will make any sense to you anyway.



But that's precisely what I have done.

I've flushed that godforsaken Bible down the toilet because that was clearly the lies of unscrupulous men. And I go straigh to my creator. In fact, I don't even demand that God be a HIM, God can be a SHE as far as I'm concerned. I'm not about to tell God what he or she has to be. That whole male-chauvinist thing came from those dastartly men who claimed to speak for God when they wrote the Bible.



Strength? Why should it require strength to reach out to God?

I reach out to God with

Love doesn't require any strength. All it requires is tenderness.



Well, I personally don't believe that crap. REMEMBER WHERE you got that idea!

It was MEN who brainwashed you to believe that in the first place!

I've never felt at odds with my creator. In fact this is one huge reason why I know it's a lie. Who do those men think they were claiming that I fell from grace from my creator?

Just because they were a bunch of male-chauvinist pigs who use God as an excuse to murder heathens doesn't mean I am. Let them speak for THEMSELVES!

I never did anything to fall from grace from my creator. On the contrary I studies a false dogma VERY DILIGENTLY in an attempt to learn more about my creator, only to finally realize that the whole book was written by a bunch of male-chauvinist pigs who don't even know the meaning of LOVE.

This is the LIE that you need to get past. You're not at odds with God!

Those evil male-chuvinist pigs just wanted you to think that so they could demand that you join their churches and support their evil agendas and help them murder heathens in the name of God.

Today the religion is just coasting along from all the momentum that it had. There's really no one controlling it now, it's just the aftermath of a dead doctrine. None the less people are still using it to create churches and political movements to belittle other people such as same-gender lovers, and basically any non-Christians who refuse to climb on the bigotry wagon in the name of Jesus.

Do you believe that Jesus supports bigotry in his name?



Don't mention it.

I'm always glad to share honesty and truth.

During the days of Noah...GOD CONTINUED TO WARN the people of the coming flood....

ALL during the time it took to build the ark...

which was several hundred years ,if I am correct .....

But no one would listen.

Point being....God wanted to SPARE ALL the people of the coming flood....despite all..but no one would listen.

I think it would be selfish to believe theres only one way to have God, or a higher powers approval. Tired of it. Even though Im christian.. Im still with Abra.. hes putting out there good things.. just not in everyone elses same way. A truly good person could see that.

Well, if God did want to spare all the people, he could have done something crazy, like not make it flood.
But, since the Flood still happened, then God's wanting to spare the lives was nothing more than an empty promise. Any God that would toy with his "prized creation" like that is not worth worshiping.

And as it was in the days of noah, so shall it be in the end days...

and we as believers are called to share the good news of Jesus salvation for all........

but we are to share the Good News

in a spirit of love, not condemnation.

And if God dwell in us, we will go tell in Love...

for we can't help but tell in a spirit of love.

But the enemy loves to try and come into the picture ....

and distort the gospel message of salvation.......

by using people who preach religion....

instead of relationship...thus turning many away from God.

Let us make sure we are telling the Good news in LOVE.

God is LOVE.

It may have taken Noah at least 100 years to build the ark. Scripture doesnt really say. It does however, First mention Noah when he was about 500 years old. he boarded the ark at about 600 years old and he exit the ark around a year later at about 700 years old. So it may have been around a year for him to build more or less.

Smiles just messing with yah :)

The flood is at best a localized flood and the story is taken from an ancient text (not scriptures) called the Epic of Gilgamesh. It is believed to have been written in approximately 2700 BC. This plagiarism is further evidence of the unreliability of bible.

Why do you even believe this story to begin with?

I don't believe that our creator is as lame as this story of a God.

It's so totally full of holes. You'd have to believe that God is utterly stupid to believe these stories. Especailly the flood story.

Take the story of Job for example.

God needs to TEST job?

Job is a devoted loyal worshiper and servant of God, and God needs to TEST job?

Think about this!

Why would God need to TEST anyone?

God is supposed to KNOW what we are THINKING!

Does that raise any red flags for you?

If it doesn't then you're seriously not even capable of looking at the story objectively.

If all you can do is continue to make excuses for these lame stories then all you care about is forcing them to be true, whether or not they make any sense is totally irrelevant to you.

All I can figure is that you are desperate to believe in something and you simply can't imagine anything else to believe in. Therefore you need the Bible to be true, because if it's not true, then you have nowhere left to turn but to atheism which is an option you can't even begin to handle.

I personally never felt that way. I don't need the Bible to be true, nor any other religion to be true, to believe in God.

Whether any manmade story is true or not is totally moot.

If there's a God maybe God never wrote any books!

After all, if God truly wants to play hide and seek why not just be totally silent altogether?

Maybe God actually sees moral atheists as being the epitome of the most righteous form of humans.

After all what is a greater demonstration of goodness than to be good even though you don't even believe in a God or an afterlife?

That proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that you're a genuinely GOOD person.

Ironically the Christians would have God casting those good atheists into hell just because they don't believe that a bunch of male-chuavinist bigots speak for God.

Christians must truly think God is one hell of a dastardly demon is all I can figure.

How bright does a person need to be that our creator can't possible be basing people fates on which religion they choose to believe?

Especially when these religions are so dastardly and confused.

Just just at the Biblical-based Abrahamic religions. They fell into four major conflicing parts, Judaism, Islam, Catholicism, and Protestantism.

They all hate each other's guts and are all out to assimilate each other, with the Jews probably be the least interested in assimilating anyone.

And look at the Protestants! They are the least credible of the bunch. They are the most hypocritical of the bunch.

First off the protest against the Body of Christ (the Catholic Church). Then the protest against each other until they fall into so many denominations that it requires a modern day spreadsheet just to keep track of all their individual protesting demoninations.

Plus they have totally abandoned their original tenant!

Their original tenant was to proclaim that no mortal man speaks for Jesus, or the Holy Spirit! They were rejecting the idea of a POPE who interprets scripture for the masses.

But now what do they do? They proselytize the scripture to the masses! They do precisely what they had protested against. They have all become nothing more than self-appointed Paper Popes.

They argue with everyone's interpretations of the Bible. But the whole idea of Protestanism when it first started out was the only the Holy Spirit can speak to the soul of a person.

Well, hey, I'm a Protestant! I believe that the Holy Spirit has spoken to me, not via words, but via emotions, feelings, and comprehension I get when I read the Bible (or any other books for that matter).

And what I get from the Holy Spirit when I read the Bible is that the Old Testamant is the bigoted nonsense of male-chauvinist men who tried to claim that God told them to murder sinners and heathens.

When I read the Old Testament stories I feel in my heart that they are total nonsense made up by men to control the masses and get the masses to do their bidding. I feel confident that this inpretation is correct. Therefore I must conclude that this is the message I am getting from the Holy Spirit.

When I read the new Testament stories I feel in my heart that Jesus was a mortal man who studied Buddhism and tried to teach Buddhist moral values to his brothers. He was murdered for his efforts, and the authors of the New Testament tried to use the resulting rumors of his ministry to ressurect the Old Testament. The very dogma that Jesus himself denounced.

So there you have it.

I'm a Protestant Chrisitan who believe that the Holy Spirit has spoken to me in its own way to assure me that the Old Testament is false mythology and Jesus was a mortal man who tried to get people to see this.

So that's where I'm at in my walk with God.

And that's Protestantism taking seriously!

Let the Holy Spirit do the talking and flush that godforsaken Bible down the toilet.

No need to do away with God. The Bible never had anything more to do with God than the Greek mythological tales of Zeus had to do with God.

You don't need those ancient mythologies to save God.

God is God. She's omniscient. She lives in your heart, not in ancient myths.

Now open your hymnals to "The War is Over" and sing along:

http://users.csonline.net/designer/ideas/peace.htm

On the issue of the flood not being plausible.

Did anyone see the doc.. i think at least that is what it was.

That some scientists are now saying the flood was possible.

This being that thier was at one time something happened that caused the ocean floors to drop.

That thier may of been a massive flood that the water in the earth spewed out as rivers and after so much force the crust gave way and created the oceans as we know them and the flood then receeded.

This is one arument for Atlantis disappearing and the underwater roads and monuments that have been found around the world.


This gives alot of credance to the scriptures in this regard as it says the waters sprang out of the earth.. Not just rain.

Gen 7:10-12
10 And it came to pass after seven days that the waters of the flood were on the earth. 11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 12 And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.
NKJV

Notice it says fountain as the definition from the Hebrew text says.. Thier was way more water than raining and what these scientists believe now goes hand in hand with the Biblical accout that has been around for thousands of years.

I saw it posted where the bible plagerized the story.

If so, does this other writings also say the waters gushed out of the earth?



ma` yan

OT:4599 ma` yan (mah-yawn'); or ma` yenow (Ps 114:8) (mah-yen-o'); or (feminine) ma` yanah (mah-yaw-naw'); from OT:5869 (as a denominative in the sense of a spring); a fountain (also collectively), figuratively, a source (of satisfaction):


KJV - fountain, spring, well.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Blessings of Shalom...Miles

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c010.html