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| Topic: honest question.... | |
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Edited by
HawaiiMusikMan
on
Mon 03/09/09 09:25 PM
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if the God of the Old Testament was ever debunked as myth would that automatically make Christianity debunked by extension? (I ask because some christians tell me that they ignore the old testament and focus on jesus's teachings) One thing to note is that the old testiment and it's laws were of the 'old covenant' God made to the children of Israel. With the coming, death, and resurrection of Jesus, we are now under the 'new covenant' so it is best to study the new testament and it's promises but it does not make the old testament something we shouldn't read and learn from. Jesus summed up the commandments in Matthew 22:35-40 which CircuitRider quoted above. To answer your first question; yes; the old and new testament go hand in hand. |
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if the God of the Old Testament was ever debunked as myth would that automatically make Christianity debunked by extension? (I ask because some christians tell me that they ignore the old testament and focus on jesus's teachings) The Old Testament is the history of the creations of YAHWEH, (Of which mankind is meant to be the crown jewel) and how GOD interacted with mankind until the coming of Messiah. The writings tell of the struggle between Mankind and GOD... Mankind, made in the Spiritual image of GOD, let envy and the desires of his heart get between him and GOD... Since GOD is SPIRIT, therefore invisible to the eyes of mankind, many don't ever get it. JESUS, The Messiah (The Anointed One) was born as mankind, but bears The Spirit of His Father, YAHWEH. As to OT laws, there are only TEN that Christians are required to live under, that is; The Ten Commandments given to the chil;dren of Israel: The Book of Exodus 20:3-17 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 13 Thou shalt not kill. 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15 Thou shalt not steal. 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. *The rest of The Law was added, because the Israelites could/would not understand the meanings of The Ten Commandments. Jesus, The Messiah explained OT Law in this manner: The book of Matthew 22:35-40 35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. The OT should be used as a guideline for study in The NT, much like our American History books are used in school. 
thank you so much for taking the time to explain it to me .
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if the God of the Old Testament was ever debunked as myth would that automatically make Christianity debunked by extension? (I ask because some christians tell me that they ignore the old testament and focus on jesus's teachings) The Old Testament is the history of the creations of YAHWEH, (Of which mankind is meant to be the crown jewel) and how GOD interacted with mankind until the coming of Messiah. The writings tell of the struggle between Mankind and GOD... Mankind, made in the Spiritual image of GOD, let envy and the desires of his heart get between him and GOD... Since GOD is SPIRIT, therefore invisible to the eyes of mankind, many don't ever get it. JESUS, The Messiah (The Anointed One) was born as mankind, but bears The Spirit of His Father, YAHWEH. As to OT laws, there are only TEN that Christians are required to live under, that is; The Ten Commandments given to the chil;dren of Israel: The Book of Exodus 20:3-17 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 13 Thou shalt not kill. 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15 Thou shalt not steal. 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. *The rest of The Law was added, because the Israelites could/would not understand the meanings of The Ten Commandments. Jesus, The Messiah explained OT Law in this manner: The book of Matthew 22:35-40 35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. The OT should be used as a guideline for study in The NT, much like our American History books are used in school.
Apparently god excludes himself from these commandments. The god of OT IS THE SAME as the god of the NT. |
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jasmine...i hope it makes sense now. i miss all the threads by going to bed lol
who needs sleep...right? lol |
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If you examine the characteristics of the OT g-d, he/she/it is clearly not the same as the NT g-d; this is mainly due to the fact that the NT g-d is based on Pagan thought and not Jewish thought. The Jewish religion does not have a heaven or hell or any of that other stuff, pagan religion does. It can be seen in the clarification of the Xian 10 commandments and the Jewish ones (if you did not notice there is only one place in the OT where 10 commandments are given and are call the 10 commandments and are stated that they were written in stone, these not being the ones made famous in the movie).
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If you examine the characteristics of the OT g-d, he/she/it is clearly not the same as the NT g-d; this is mainly due to the fact that the NT g-d is based on Pagan thought and not Jewish thought. The Jewish religion does not have a heaven or hell or any of that other stuff, pagan religion does. It can be seen in the clarification of the Xian 10 commandments and the Jewish ones (if you did not notice there is only one place in the OT where 10 commandments are given and are call the 10 commandments and are stated that they were written in stone, these not being the ones made famous in the movie). I see your point, but isn't xianity based on the premise that the two are one and same? |
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if the God of the Old Testament was ever debunked as myth would that automatically make Christianity debunked by extension? (I ask because some christians tell me that they ignore the old testament and focus on jesus's teachings) Yes it would. Jesus claimed to be one with the father. |
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If the OT god was ever proven to be non-existent, beyond a shadow of a doubt, I think it would do more then affect Christianity, since all 3 major monotheistic religions share common roots.. Good point. |
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I see your point, but isn't xianity based on the premise that the two are one and same? Actually three in one, which historically was forced on the Church by the Roman Emperor Theo (something or other). Compare the Beautitudes of Jesus and some of the commands of the OT guy and tell me if they are compatible. I bet they are as compatible as my last couple of Mutual Matches. |
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The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.
They go hand in hand. |
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i ask specifically because i was in a discussion with one of my christian friends the other day, who was trying to "save my soul", and each and every time i brought up my concerns about old testament passages which quite obviously no god would have anything to do with, he kept telling me that christianity is about the new testament and that i should ignore the old testament. so my response was to say that if i cannot believe the god of the old testament was anything more than a made up story... then how can i believe that jesus christ was his son? at which point my friend declared me stubborn, my soul a lost cause and said he will never discuss religion with me again. ... and i was left perplexed... 
It seems to me that many Christians like to do that. I have talked to some who say that the bible needs to be taken literally, and then I would bring up one of "those" passages, then they would say "those" passages are just a story... It's a circular argument... Its really not a circular argument. The two fit very well together. A good understanding of theology is required. |
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if the God of the Old Testament was ever debunked as myth would that automatically make Christianity debunked by extension? (I ask because some christians tell me that they ignore the old testament and focus on jesus's teachings) The Old Testament is the history of the creations of YAHWEH, (Of which mankind is meant to be the crown jewel) and how GOD interacted with mankind until the coming of Messiah. The writings tell of the struggle between Mankind and GOD... Mankind, made in the Spiritual image of GOD, let envy and the desires of his heart get between him and GOD... Since GOD is SPIRIT, therefore invisible to the eyes of mankind, many don't ever get it. JESUS, The Messiah (The Anointed One) was born as mankind, but bears The Spirit of His Father, YAHWEH. As to OT laws, there are only TEN that Christians are required to live under, that is; The Ten Commandments given to the chil;dren of Israel: The Book of Exodus 20:3-17 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 13 Thou shalt not kill. 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15 Thou shalt not steal. 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. *The rest of The Law was added, because the Israelites could/would not understand the meanings of The Ten Commandments. Jesus, The Messiah explained OT Law in this manner: The book of Matthew 22:35-40 35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. The OT should be used as a guideline for study in The NT, much like our American History books are used in school.
Apparently god excludes himself from these commandments. The god of OT IS THE SAME as the god of the NT. The laws were given for mankind. These laws logically flow from His very nature. |
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The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed. They go hand in hand. Actually, was it not Mando (sp?) a student of Paul who took his views to the nth degree and declared that there is no longer any use for the OT. I believe, they stoned him for that. If Paul says that Jesus fulfills and surpasses the Torah and establishes a new convenant, they the OT is in fact inappropos, QED. |
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Edited by
Nubby
on
Tue 03/10/09 02:17 PM
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If you examine the characteristics of the OT g-d, he/she/it is clearly not the same as the NT g-d; this is mainly due to the fact that the NT g-d is based on Pagan thought and not Jewish thought. The Jewish religion does not have a heaven or hell or any of that other stuff, pagan religion does. It can be seen in the clarification of the Xian 10 commandments and the Jewish ones (if you did not notice there is only one place in the OT where 10 commandments are given and are call the 10 commandments and are stated that they were written in stone, these not being the ones made famous in the movie). Let me first ask you what pagan thought are you referring to? TB Rich have you studied Jewish theology? |
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The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed. They go hand in hand. Actually, was it not Mando (sp?) a student of Paul who took his views to the nth degree and declared that there is no longer any use for the OT. I believe, they stoned him for that. If Paul says that Jesus fulfills and surpasses the Torah and establishes a new convenant, they the OT is in fact inappropos, QED. Paul was thoroughly Jewish. I have studied alot of Christian history both liberal and conservative and have never heard of Mando. |
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Jesus and his followers were all Jews, I think it would have been unheard of to suggest that Yahweh had suddenly become inconsequential.
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Egads, have you studied Jewish theology from real Jews, Paul rarely knew what he was talking about! He misintrepreted most of the OT! Mando, Manichean, something or other; how come you don't know who I am talking about Paul's best and brightest student. I don't sit here with my reference books handy (the BIQ, ie- B1tch in Question {ex} still has my stuff). Most Jewish scholars believe him to be a frustrated Rabbinical student, who could not have study under who he claimed, because he clearly did not know the Torah or the Talmud.
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Egads, have you studied Jewish theology from real Jews, Paul rarely knew what he was talking about! He misintrepreted most of the OT! Mando, Manichean, something or other; how come you don't know who I am talking about Paul's best and brightest student. I don't sit here with my reference books handy (the BIQ, ie- B1tch in Question {ex} still has my stuff). Most Jewish scholars believe him to be a frustrated Rabbinical student, who could not have study under who he claimed, because he clearly did not know the Torah or the Talmud. Paul does not misinterpret the Old Testament. He studied under Gamaliel. Probably the greatest Jewish scholar of his time. He was a fanatic, and had a zeal for Judaism. |
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His fanaticism is considered by most Jewish scholars as a reaction to his failed attempt at scholarship. (Reference- Paul and the Creation of Xianity) The OT clearly states that the Ten Commandments are in Exodus chapter 34 not 20.
Also consider the below from a Pagan circa 600BCE. Let us now turn to the Ten Commandments of Solon (Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers, 1.60), which run as follows: 1. Trust good character more than promises. 2. Do not speak falsely. 3. Do good things. 4. Do not be hasty in making friends, but do not abandon them once made. 5. Learn to obey before you command. 6. When giving advice, do not recommend what is most pleasing, but what is most useful. 7. Make reason your supreme commander. 8. Do not associate with people who do bad things. 9. Honor the gods. 10. Have regard for your parents. |
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Edited by
Seamonster
on
Tue 03/10/09 03:39 PM
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Let me first ask you what pagan thought are you referring to? TB Rich have you studied Jewish theology? If you have to study Jewish theoligy to understand the bible then god did a piss poor job of getting it written. It is the most confusing books ever, god failed when he put that book out as a refrence. Just 1 of his many failures |
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