How you doing Kariz? Glad you have water, and no walls..

Mr. AB:
I respect you so much because you are an open person who reads all the
aspects of the threads, and when u need to agree u agree.
However, I think that the concept u r talking about it's somehow
outdated. And it's not yuor fault my own church has spent 2000 years
trying to make men and women guilty of that nonsense.
The only sense that the original sin has is the fact that the human
being to a certain point is weak. At some point the human being is going
to do something wrong (call it a sin).
BUt don't close our minds saying that a sin is something that is going
to send us to hell. The God that I love (not worship please see the
difference) knows my fragile nature, and He is always with His open arms
to receive me and love me regardless of what I have done, as far as I
have a truely desire to work hard and be better.

=====================================================================

Abracadabra wrote:

I certainly hope that you don’t add or remove teachings from the bible.
My point is that the Bible doesn’t answer any of these questions. And
your answers were the same answers the bible gives. I already knew those
answers. They aren’t ‘answers’ at all. In other words, if I ask why
does god require repentance, and the answer is “He just does”. Then
that’s no answer at all. That’s basically just saying “Don’t ask
questions, just believe it!”

=====================================================================

SpiderCMB replied:

That's one interpretation of what I wrote. The accurate interpretation
would be that I didn't answer that question. You seem to type a lot of
stuff, where a simple question would suffice. If your question is "Why
does God require repentance?", my answer would be that if you feel no
guilt for your actions, why should you be forgiven? There is no reason
for God to forgive you, if you don't think you need and don't want to be
forgiven.

=====================================================================

Abracadabra wrote:

Why should anyone believe anything when no questions are being answer
with anything other than “Because God says so”

I mean, that’s no an answer. That’s just assuming that the Bible is the
word of God. No questions asked.

I’ve re-listed my questions with your answer below and added additional
comments as to why my questions were never answered.

The point being, I don’t expect you to answer them. I already know that
there aren’t any decent answers.
=====================================================================

SpiderCMB replied:

How original! A non-Christian who has already made up their mind and
decided that there are no "decent" answers for their questions. It's
also bad form to try to answer questions for others.

=====================================================================

Abracadabra wrote:

Again, you haven’t answer the question at all. You merely restated the
point that the question asked. You said “Every sin must be paid for
with blood”

The questions is WHY? And WHO is being paid by this action?

=====================================================================

SpiderCMB replied:

Nobody gets paid. "The wages of sin is death". God decided that death
is the penalty for commiting sins. Because God is just, he punishment
must be applied. Because God is merciful, God has allowed the repentant
to use a sacrifice in their place.

=====================================================================
Abracadabra wrote:

You just side-stepped that one. I’m not talking about trivial
misdemeanors here. You can’t take someone else’s place in jail for
murder or rape, etc.

=====================================================================

SpiderCMB replied:

God doesn't have a jail. God has a law. "The wages of sin is death".
Please see above.

=====================================================================
Abracadabra wrote:

No, you side-stepped it talking about minor fines.

=====================================================================

SpiderCMB replied:

Well, that's your opinion. There is no prison. You pay (or someone for
you) the fine or you die, it's that simple.

=====================================================================
Abracadabra wrote:

Why? That was my question? The question was WHY? Why not forgive and
forget? If God requires repentance then WHY does he require this? It’s a
simply question that god should have made clear in the Bible.

=====================================================================

SpiderCMB replied:

Because it makes sense! Why forgive someone who isn't sorry for what
they have done?

=====================================================================

Abracadabra wrote:

No he isn’t. You just say that he requires repentance. However even that
wasn’t enough. He actually required payment in BLOOD you said which is
kind of strange considering that god is a spirit.

=====================================================================

SpiderCMB replied:

Blood means life in that context. God gives you life. Give in the
continual sense. It's a constant state of sustaining your existance.
Why should God continue sustaining your existance if you offend him and
feel no remourse for doing so? Why should God give you the gift of life
if you refuse to accept him as your Lord? Now tell me about how you
didn't ask to be born. None of us did, it's your duty to make the best
of the life you have been given.

=====================================================================

Abracadabra wrote:

Well you haven’t answered any of my questions. You’ve either
side-stepped them or simply restated the very thing that the question
was asking.

=====================================================================

SpiderCMB replied:

Perhaps you could be more specific with your questions?

Wow, such a controversial question. Here is something to think about.
After the fall of Adam and Eve, they were cast out of the garden. This
meant the gates of heaven were closed to all. Instead of death, God
gave them natural lives and took away their supernaturality. His plan
now was to create a new Adam and Eve to repair the sin of the originals.
Thus the term original sin. Yes we are born with this stain but it is
removed with baptism as christians believe so it does not remain. With
Christ's arrival, he defeated death by his death and re-opened the gates
of heaven to all. So as the originals recieved death through their fall
from grace, Christ defeated it and gave us a chance to live forever.
People tend to think that God's logic is human based but in actuality it
is a Godly knowledge that we cannot comprehend. Who knows what his plan
is? Can an ant think on a human level? How can we think on a Godly
level? He has restored what we have lost in original sin by instituting
baptism and a Messiah. My 2 cents.

Spider, sorry hope you don't feel picked on but since you are being
gracious enough to answer some questions, thought I throw a few more at
ya.

Quoted by you:

""A: God created laws. Every sin must be paid for with blood. God
allowed the Israelites to offer animal sacrifices, but they were simply
a shadow of what was to come, the sacrifice made by Jesus.""

It makes no sense to me that God allowed people to pay for their sin
with the bood of an animal. How did that prove remorse? In fact if
there had been remorse for a sin, wouldn't God have known it? I don't
understand why God required or even accepted the blood of innocent
creature to be ruthlessly shed when God could already tell if remorse
was genuine. Why?

Again your quote was:

""Well, that's your opinion. There is no prison. You pay (or someone for
you) the fine or you die, it's that simple.""

I have to tell, I find serious fault in the logic you present with this
quote. What you are implying and the way you are implying it, is in
direct relation to what started, what I consider the worst of all
Christian behaviors. That was the ability of a one with money & status,
to buy their way out of sin, by sending another to suffer for them, or
simply by paying for the atonement. And what did the church do with
this money. This is also reminiscent of the Romans, who bought their
way out of service to their country by sending a slave in their stead.
In fact, this was also carried out in the civil war, when the wealthy
paid a man to take his place in the draft. What kind of policy would a
God create, that would include buying your way out of sin. Sin that God
endowed us with by the simple nature of our being as he allowed it, as
he willed it so. We are, today as a people, horrified that such
purchase could ever have been so conceived. Yet, you are saying that we
learned this behavior from God. Please explain.

Thanks for your kind attention to this post.

to the comment 'the wages of sin is death'... Again this is from the
book of man.

If the wage of sin is death then we would not be here by your own book
as god would have just killed adam before he could have fatherd the
human race.

Since god did not kill our ancestors this part of that book is either in
error. Or the concept of original sin is an addition that was place
within the book to control the congregation.

Which is but one reason I do not believe in your book. It is flawed by
the hand that wrote it but perhaps not by the mouth that dictated it
Originally.

Spider, one more thing.

You say that you pay for your sin or you die. Then you say we all sin.
You say it is by our will that we sin.

Did God not grant us free will, knowing that by the nature it gave, that
we would sin?

So is it not God's doing that we are only acting accoding to the mold we
were created in, by God?

I also find it convenient, that since we all sin, we all die. I don't
know anyone alive today that was alive 150 years ago. How are we
failing to make payment, and why make payment since we know we will die
anyway?

Here are my thoughts on Original Sin. It exists, but is not 'bad'.

Sin is the absence of God. Where God "isnt" there is "sin". This is not
a bad thing. Its a simple statement of fact. God doesnt 'physically'
exist in the 'world', and so we can say this 'shadow' is simply 'sin'.
Its by design, its a limitation, its reality. So be it.

So, anything "alive", or "not physically in union with God" is "in sin".
If you beleive in heaven, then when your soul returns to be in the
presence of God, the soul has "no sin".

Since life is passed on through sex, that life-sin is passed through sex
and birth. Again, its not a "bad" thing. Its just life can beget life
even without God's handiwork in a garden.

That is the meaning of "Original Sin". Its not a social disease, or a
classification of personal character. Its just life that begets life in
the shadow of God's creation.

When you attach puritan ideas to the notion of "sin" then things get
complicated and start requiring weird rituals of cleansing, rebirth,
guilt, confession - ugh. All too complicated.

where is the time table stated

no where was it stated that the death would be swift

but just that it would come

if adam would not have sinned he may very well still be alive

just a thought

but hey what do i know

Tricess, your information about original sin, has a new slant that I had
not heard before.

"""After the fall of Adam and Eve, they were cast out of the garden.
This meant the gates of heaven were closed to all. Instead of death, God
gave them natural lives and took away their supernaturality. His plan
now was to create a new Adam and Eve to repair the sin of the originals.
Thus the term original sin"""

So are you saying that Adam and Eve were the first born again, um
people? When you say creat a new Adam and Eve are you speaking
figuratively?
And by new, do you mean, as in under new laws, in which death is
natural? Not sure I get this concept.
I think I understand that you are saying that the "original sin" was
that disobediance to God that closed the gates of heaven. Is that
correct?

Also your in your quote was:

"""Yes we are born with this stain but it is removed with baptism as
christians believe so it does not remain. With Christ's arrival, he
defeated death by his death and re-opened the gates of heaven to all."""

Here you are saying that Jesus defeated death by sheding his blood that
heaven would be open to all. Heaven was closed because of the original
sin. Jesus opened the gates again. So what purpose does baptism serve?
Are we just making sure we got it right? Sort of like, covering all the
bases????

Spider, feel free to answer the questions I posed to Tricess too. I'd
like to get your take of the baptism thing.

Redykeulous wrote:

Spider, sorry hope you don't feel picked on but since you are being
gracious enough to answer some questions, thought I throw a few more at
ya.
=====================================================================================

SpiderCMB replied:

Not at all, I like to discuss my faith.

=====================================================================================
Redykeulous wrote:

Quoted by you:

""A: God created laws. Every sin must be paid for with blood. God
allowed the Israelites to offer animal sacrifices, but they were simply
a shadow of what was to come, the sacrifice made by Jesus.""

It makes no sense to me that God allowed people to pay for their sin
with the bood of an animal. How did that prove remorse? In fact if
there had been remorse for a sin, wouldn't God have known it? I don't
understand why God required or even accepted the blood of innocent
creature to be ruthlessly shed when God could already tell if remorse
was genuine. Why?

=====================================================================================

SpiderCMB replied:

As I mentioned above, animal sacrifice was simply a shadow of the
sacrifice that Jesus made. Another thing you have to remember is that
faith without works is dead. So if you say "I'm sorry God", you haven't
really made any sacrifices have you?

As a Christian, we are no longer required to celebrate the sabbath,
because the sabbath was but a shadow of Jesus. We are no longer
required to make animal sacrifices, because they were merely a shadow of
the sacrifice made by Jesus. The Sabbath and animal sacrifices were
ways that people could make a personal sacrifice in the service of God.
We aren't held to those sacrifices, but we are required to prove our
faith in other ways. Dedicating time to God and fasting is one way. We
also spread the Gospel. It is through personal sacrifice that we prove
that we have faith and commmitment. Can you be saved without personal
sacrifice? I'm not sure, I'm not that spiritual of a person.

=====================================================================================

Redykeulous wrote:

Again your quote was:

""Well, that's your opinion. There is no prison. You pay (or someone for
you) the fine or you die, it's that simple.""

I have to tell, I find serious fault in the logic you present with this
quote. What you are implying and the way you are implying it, is in
direct relation to what started, what I consider the worst of all
Christian behaviors. That was the ability of a one with money & status,
to buy their way out of sin, by sending another to suffer for them, or
simply by paying for the atonement. And what did the church do with
this money. This is also reminiscent of the Romans, who bought their
way out of service to their country by sending a slave in their stead.
In fact, this was also carried out in the civil war, when the wealthy
paid a man to take his place in the draft. What kind of policy would a
God create, that would include buying your way out of sin. Sin that God
endowed us with by the simple nature of our being as he allowed it, as
he willed it so. We are, today as a people, horrified that such
purchase could ever have been so conceived. Yet, you are saying that we
learned this behavior from God. Please explain.

=====================================================================================

SpdierCMB replied:

Jesus taught a parable of "the Rich man and Lazarus". In the parable,
Jesus showed that money, status and worldly power can't buy you a place
in the afterlife. Anyone who believes that their money, works or
charity will save them is completely wrong.

Your example is flawed, because Jesus was a willing sacrifice. There is
nothing you can do to pay your sin debt, but die. Physical and
spiritual death. But if you are willing to be subservient to Jesus, his
sacrifice will be accepted in place of your debt. Jesus died
physically, because he was born into our fallen world. Jesus didn't die
spiritually, because he had never sinned. It is because Jesus is God
and sinless that he was a suffient sacrifice for every human who would
ever live.

God endowed us with free-will, with the full understanding that we would
sin. But we can only love and serve God if we have free-will. So
free-will is necessary for us to serve the purpose for which we were
made.
=====================================================================================

Redykeulous wrote:

Thanks for your kind attention to this post.

=====================================================================================

SpdierCMB replied:

My pleasure. Thank you for being polite and respectful.

Redykeulous wrote:

Spider, one more thing.

You say that you pay for your sin or you die. Then you say we all sin.
You say it is by our will that we sin.

Did God not grant us free will, knowing that by the nature it gave, that
we would sin?

So is it not God's doing that we are only acting accoding to the mold we
were created in, by God?

I also find it convenient, that since we all sin, we all die. I don't
know anyone alive today that was alive 150 years ago. How are we
failing to make payment, and why make payment since we know we will die
anyway?

==================================================================================

SpiderCMB replied:

Everything in our universe dies. This is because when Adam and Eve
sinned, they no longer deserved to live in a perfect universe, so the
universe is cursed. Since the fall of Adam and Eve, the universe is
fallen. The laws of physics and existance were different before the
fall.

When Christians talk about death, we understand (and pardon me for not
explaining before) that there are two types of death. Almost everyone
will experiance physical death. (Elijah, Enoch and everyone who survives
the end times won't die) Everyone who isn't saved will experiance
spirtual death. What spirtual death means is hotly debated amoung
Christians, but we are all in agreement that it is not something you
want to experiance. Following Jesus doesn't mean you won't be hurt or
suffer, it means that you will be forgiven for your sins and live
forever. Jesus taught that since he, the only sinless man and the son
of God, had to suffer, we will all suffer.

Please explain sin so that I may understand it as a concept.

Sin is disobedience to the will of God.

Then I have not sinned. As I have allways given myself to the will of
god.

Unless you mean as the 'will of god' only that will as defined in the
box of your book.

and still I have not sinned for I know not your book nor its sins.

I have not partaken of its fruit of the knowledge of good and evil as it
describes those things. Therefore I know not sin by your book.

Romans 2:15
in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their
conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or
else defending them,

Romans 3:20
because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight;
for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the
contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for
I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU
SHALL NOT COVET."

???

What does that have to do with if I have sinned or not?

John 8:47
He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear
them, because you are not of God.