The older I get, the more I see the difference between being religious
and being spiritual. I choose being spiritual. In our world they say
there are two topics not to bring up unless you want an argument.
Politics and religion. That is why I choose to be spiritual. People have
always asked what religion are you, but you don't hear to many ask about
your spirituality. I could spend all my time thinking about the fruits
of the spirit, but when it comes to religion one can feel the tight grip
of the organized churches laying their heavy weight on. Some call this
conviction, I call it guilt. Nowhere do we read in any book that we were
built to feel guilty, yet we so often carry guilt upon our shoulders
like a sack of bricks weighing us down so much that we are never able to
get to the point of being spiritual.

I was very fortunate to recognize a need to separate religion from
spirituality very early in my life.

mg wrote:
“Nowhere do we read in any book that we were built to feel guilty”

I believe there is a book that claims that all men are born into sin and
that no man is without sin.

Please correct me if I’m wrong about that.

Well, my people believe differently but you're entitled to your own
interpretation.

think I began to feel organized religion was all about
control, money & power...
being spiritual is all about honesty..being honest with
yourself and the peace of nature all around us...

mg1959, I totally understand where you are coming from in regards to
difference between 'spiritual' and 'religious'. However, I think there
may be yet a third part that completes the equation.

Religious, as you said, has come down, whether in part or in whole, as
some connection with an 'organized' affair. The only redemption, I
personally find, in organized religion is that they were created as a
place for like minded, like believing people to gather for communion.
The had of the organization has reached far beyond this purpose, deep
into the recesses of the political and social structures of countries.
bad!

Sprirituality, to me is the flip side of that same coin. The word
itself lends itself, at least in some part, to a basic religious
concept, only it falls outside the realm of the organized. For the term
itself, spiritual, seems to infer that there is a pre-existance or some
eternal existance of a part of our make that is not human or otherwise
animal oriented. That, in fact, that is some unknown, unseen, creative
and organized creative force. I find those who to not affiliated
themselves with an organized religion and who do not, when asked, claim
a particular religious affiliation, like Lutheran, Catholic, Jewish and
such, are much more accepting of others, much more open to and defending
of others views.

Obviously there is peace within each group. With the organized it is
peace in having an explanation to EVERYTHING, even if it boils down to
'Thy will be done'. For the spriritual it is a peace that we do not
have to have an answer to everything, and that getting through this life
is best done within a peaceful state of being.

Then there are those, like myself, that do not believe in the pre or
continued existance of the 'thoughtful' or 'memory' portion of this
human existance. We are, like anything else, in this universe a passing
thing. While, I can not be sure that there isn't somewhere that some
internal energy gathers upon our death, upon the death of any living
thing, I don't believe it is anything more tangible than energy itself.

My peace, I find very little, execpt in my joy. My joys are discovering
new things that broaden my awareness. Helping others as I go along.
Making some small breakthrough that will add to a more harmonious
coexistance for us all. I suppose in an ironic twist, my peace comes
from the freedom to persue my quest for knowledge.

So do I fall into the realm of spiritual? I never could quite see a
correlation, by definition.

Great posting,

It's a big world isn't it? I've enjoyed learning as I've traveled. I've
also enjoyed being able to listen to others and their thoughts. As LAMom
says "there's always something new to learn every day". Wise words.

BTW (not that any would necessarily been interested) I would be happy to
show you my religious and spiritual resume.

Have a great day!

michael

Feel free to post your thoughts on spirituality mg, that's what the
forums all about. Sounds like you have a refreshing and unique view.

It's true that churches are organized institutions. However, this
religions are formed by individuals.
These individuals within their faith live an individual spirituality.
Those who are really committed don't need to show up and yell at the
world to which religion they belong. Their acts are those that tell what
spirituality that individual has.
Now an individual can't be judge and party. Meaning that by himself or
herself can't decide what are the moral values that he/she has to
follow. This person needs guidelines (bible or any other book of that
kind) (sorry i don't know how to spell the name of the muslim or jew
books, so if somebody can help me with that i will appreciate it).
However, this guidelines must be applied to each individual
circumstances. We can't read the books word by word we need to
interpret, then individuality shows up.
Once again for those who say that they don't need these guidelines, it's
too easy set low standards of moral values and have peace in their
consciousness (for me it's too lazy).
Some people in these threads claim several things about evolution with
which I totally agree. In the same line of thought the church I know
(catholic) has evolutioned through 2000 years of history. So these
people who talk about the calamities of the catholic church are basing
their judgments in the catholic church 100 or 200 years ago.
Why don't u people see what the church is doing in Africa?
In South American countries as mine where priests go deep into poverty
and deal with all kinds of problems not just physical, also spirituals.
These priests, nuns, and volunteers go to those places where you people
send a couple of bucks each month.
It's true that some priests have committed awful acts (child
molestatiion, etc.), but they are as human as you, and they have the
same right to fail as you have. And I'm not justifying them. For me
these bad priests have to pay for their behaviors.
All what I'm saying is that you people should stop focusing just in
outdated information and a few bad individuals who represent the church.
Being said all these, I just want to make clear that I respect your
points of view. I only want to say that it's not necessary being so
harsh over things that we don't have 100% knowledge about.
TLW

Hi JSH,

First I must say that my view is only as deep as what I have experienced
up until now. Every day seems to be a renewal or awakening. Much like
what Paul teaches. I've been in some of the 3rd world countries, and
able to be blessed enough to help in projects for the needy. It was at
this time that I realized that I had much to learn as the people in
these countries were much more spiritually rich than I. Their capacity
to love unconditionally was so moving that I made three records in
Spanish to support my stay. We built orphanages, and visited the
prisons. I began to learn how I was very selfish as compared to these
beautiful spirits. Watching a family save up their money for a whole
year just to be able to make me a beef stew was beyond my comprehension.
This kind of compassion, love, and loyalty changed my life forever.

I during this time would come back to the states and Britain, and began
working for organizations like.

D. James Kennedy of the TV show Coral Ridge
Charles Stanley's In Touch
NIBS (National Institute for biblical studies)
Walk thru the bible
Many of the gospel music artist

The list could go on and on. All of these people and organizations took
me in as their own. Yes many wanted me to convert to different thinking
patterns to a degree, but the leaders of these groups I found to be very
sincere, and even more open to the world as a whole than maybe their own
organizations did. The churches in America vs Africa for example are
extremely different, but I found that the fundamental spirit of love was
just the same.

Yes, I do question the flow of money and the capital approach that the
more wealthy churches have, but than I also have to question my own
hypocrisy. Most of my possessions have now been exchanged for the
blessing I receive from my journeys. In fact this will be the last year
for my possessions to be finally gone. I have lived on both side of the
fence, and am finding myself being pulled toward the people who have a
simpler love inside of them. A peace that really does pass all
understanding.

I now know that I not only want but need that peace. I need to be
surrounded by love, and a positive world, of joy and hope. I'm just now
learning what it means to give up all you have and follow.

I'm only just beginning to learn so I am the last to stand in judgment
of anyone and their beliefs. I can only say this. I do now (after 47
years) know that it is far better to give than to receive.

I love everyone I have worked with, and have gained much from their own
personal insites.

As I said in my first post in the beginning of this thread. I could
spend all my time thinking about the fruits of the spirit, and someday
will.

Someone said in another thread that they have one commandment Love, well
when you read through the fruits there is a note that the writer puts in
as a PS "and the greatest of these is love". I was pleased as I saw the
simplicity and truth of that post.

Love

michael

God bless you

TheLonelyWalker,

Nice to meet you brother,


michael

Nice to meet u
May the Lord be with you forever

Beg to differ with something...

' Meaning that by himself or herself can't decide what are the moral
values that he/she has to follow. '

I like the moral values I have developed for myself. They work for me.

Churches have a tendency to impose their own moral values on their
congregation. Values that I find to be lackin in some ways.

I have allways been a bit of a lone wolf. Don't need someone trying to
herd me into the flock. Don't want to be part of something that is
controlled by a small minority.

On a personal level I agree with AB. From my point of view it’s quite
easy for an individual to have perfectly good moral values without any
external input. This view is also held by very famous men such as
Albert Einstein and many other philosophers.

Although, it may very well be that the people who feel this way simply
have no desire to do bad things. I don’t need to fight off any
‘temptation’ to do bad things. I just automatically don’t want to do
them. It’s just who I am. If the only thing that religions had to
offer was a set of moral values then religions would be a totally
useless concept for me. I simply wouldn’t need one. I’m already a
highly moral person.

However, I do realize that this isn’t true for everyone. There are
criminals in this world. There are people who lie, cheat, steal and
even do really nasty things like rape and murder. I must confess that
I don’t understand what drives those people to do those things.
However, I’m also not convinced that religion is very effect at
restraining them. A lot of criminals who are in jail claim to be
affiliated with religions and have a belief in a god, yet they still
don’t behave themselves. So having an external moral system available
to them doesn’t seem to do much good anyway.

I think the same thing can also be said for love and compassion. There
are a lot of humanitarian groups that spread love and provide support
for people in need purely in the name of humanity. They don’t affiliate
themselves with any religion and many even claim to be atheists.

mg, your post seemed to be all about peace, love and helping your fellow
man. I can’t help but wonder why you affiliate these things with a
religious faith. Would you not do these things if not for religious
faith? Would you not do them just for the sake of brotherly love and
humanitarianism?

I don’t mean to be questioning your faith at all. I’m just curious as to
why you associate these particular acts with faith? When I participate
in community service or help other people I don’t even remotely think in
terms of any religious faith. I just do it out of brotherly love.

Fascinating subject...

I don't say really I have either...religion nor spirituality.

I just "do", what feels right for me. What resonates as truth, as a good
friend says, I just 'do' thankyou.

AB, lone wolf...hmmm..seems to be a fragmented pack out there, I know
many other lone wolves, and they all seem to walk the same
paths...although different ridges, at different times...free to roam
wherever they choose.

Makes sense to me.

(Because we have often used the terms “Religious” and “Spiritual” and
referred to the fact that most people are “Religious” and not enough are
“Spiritual” it is simple to understand for most people and depicts the
reality of truth about “Churches” – being “Religious” and being
“Spiritual”. May you find the meaning to be a blessing to you and those
with whom you may share it with.

Those who truly seek to know the Divine and to establish a deep and
personal relationship with the Lord are SPIRITUAL, While those who
stubbornly cling to man-made rituals and public displays of piety,
created to fit their idea of God, are merely RELIGIOUS. God created man
and man made religion. In Latin, religion refers to ((piety)), while the
word spiritual comes from the French word ((esprit)) and means breath or
breathing.

One can be spiritual without being religious, but if viewed and
practiced in the proper light, religion can be a reinforcement to one's
spirituality. When Jesus met the woman at the well, she said to him, "I
see that you are a prophet. Our ancestors worshipped on this mountain,
but you say that the place where people must worship is in Jerusalem."
The woman was obviously hung up on religious tradition and practice. In
reply, Jesus answered her . . . "The hour is coming, and is now here,
when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and in
truth, for the Father seeks such as these to worship him." ((John 4:
19-20, 23-24))

The answer that Jesus gave the woman is a real eye-opener because as a
religious Jewish man, Jesus has placed the emphasis on the (spiritual
rather than the religious). Jesus is showing us that the true and deeper
reality of religion is spirituality. We are created to be first and
foremost, spiritual beings. Practicing works of piety and participating
in religious ceremonies is a direct result of being spiritual. When God
breathed the breath of life into Adam, He gave Adam his spiritual
nature. Thus, every time one breathes in and out, their spirit yearns
for a closer and deeper relationship with the Creator.

There are many people who find themselves feeling constant guilt for
things they have done or have not done during the course of their lives,
and they begin to find their church to be boring and they feel that the
traditions and ceremonies of their church are antiquated and out of
touch. The reason for this is that they are practicing religion without
spirituality.
If you seek spirituality through meditation, private prayer, and through
fasting and silence, this will lead you to surrender yourself to the God
who loves you with infinite constancy. This will then lead you to
embrace such virtues as patience, kindness, truthfulness, or
unconditional love, and a deep desire to reach out to your fellow man.
Being aware of the spiritual dimension of our nature means being able to
sense that which is sacred not only within ourselves, but also among us.

Religions are imperfect and very often, religion is accused of hypocrisy
because of the disparity between its spiritual vision and its own
attempt to live up to that vision. But it is fairly easy to tell when
religious groups acknowledge their shortcomings, and care for one
another and the world even as they struggle to become more true to the
vision over time. It is a FACT that we are all sinners. We have sick
souls that are in need of healing, but we cannot be healed, made more
whole, in a vacuum. Religion comes about because we need to work things
out together, labor to do better next time. Our physical life is a
learning process and if we do not make mistakes, then we can't be
learning a heck of a lot. When we mess up, make mistakes, we have
sinned, but when we learn from our mistakes ((sins)), when we strive to
never make the same mistake again, Holy Scripture ((I am well aware that
many refuse the writings of the Bible)) calls that repentance.

Often, people falsely believe that to be ((religious)), they must
totally and questioningly surrender themselves to a Church institution.
The reality is that being religious is to live ones life in such a way
that brings honor to and a relationship with God ((at least my God))that
your soul so deeply longs for. Once you have come to this realization,
you will find an inner peace and that the religious ceremonies,
especially the beautiful and awe inspiring Divine Liturgy of the
Orthodox Church, rather then being a boring exercise and a guilt fest,
will lift your spirit, your soul, ever higher on your journey toward God
and spiritual perfection. And, to discover that sharing the journey with
others in a church community will help you live that life with peace,
sincerity and joy. This journey is made easier by reaching out and
accepting the wonderful, awesome and free gift of pardon and salvation
which was bought and paid for by Jesus Christ.

I consider myself a Spiritual person, one who sees the truth in all
religions. Which are you? What is the difference? The "Religious" person
acknowledges only their own path; the "Spiritual" person sees that there
are many paths to the Divine and theirs is but one. ((Religious people
follow the letter of religion, but often not the Spirit of it)).
((Spiritual people are more concerned with the Spirit of religion than
the letter of it)). I suppose that is the main difference between
Religious and Spiritual.

Who is right? How can one Faith be more correct than another? The truly
Spiritual person can see that all are correct. All are different paths
to the same goal. The goal is reunion with the Divine. The Divine is
manifest in all things, including us. The Religious person may have read
or heard about all things being Divine in nature; the Spiritual person
has experienced this for themselves and have seen their own true nature.
The Spiritual person recognizes that they are a spirit being having a
Human experience, not a human being having a few Spiritual experiences.

Many Religious people have read about or been told about A Path, but do
not recognize any others.
They have been told to do things in a certain way and not question why.
If they do question, the answer is because; because the Bible or the
Koran or some other religious text says to do it that way. They do not
follow the Spirit but the letter. That is okay for some, but just
because it has been written down does not make it good for all.

There have been many great religious and spiritual leaders. The
Religious leaders put forth the letter of their own faith, but often
repressed other faiths.((thus why I am fearful or "organized religion))
The Spiritual leaders spread the word as they saw it, but did not
condemn other paths. They often incorporated other faiths into their
own. Thus, instead of a new religion, they were spreading an extension -
a continuation of an established faith. They offered a new philosophy
based on old values. Old values such as love.

From time to time, many Spiritual teachers have manifested to help guide
humanity. Jesus was such a spiritual leader. Jesus said that he would
return in different forms. He was asked, how will we know it is you? His
answer is in John 10:37-38. (('If I am not doing the works of my Father,
do not believe in me. If I am doing them, even though you do not believe
in me, believe in the works, so that you may know and believe that my
Father is with me and I am with my Father.'))

Krishna also spoke of returning from age to age. 'For the protection of
the good, for the destruction of the wicked and for the establishment of
righteousness, I come forth into being from age to age.' Since Krishna
manifested on the Earth thousands of years before Jesus, Jesus could
have been a manifestation of Krishna. All religions stem from the same
source.

The Spiritual person sees and can acknowledge this fact.
The Religious person is at times trapped within their own faith and
cannot see outside. They often can or will not acknowledge the many
paths to the Source.
The Spiritual person can recognize the many manifestations of the Divine
as being parts of the same Source.
The Religious person recognizes only the manifestation they have been
taught. Too often, the Religious person seeks to discredit other
manifestations of the Divine. This has been the cause of many wars and
countless deaths. This has caused people throughout history to be
persecuted because of their religion. The Christians persecuted the
Pagans. The Jews persecuted the Christians. The Chinese government
persecuted the Buddhists in Tibet. Christians persecuted other
Christians. This list could go on and on and on. Once started, this
cycle is hard to stop.

Even within the same path, people interpret things in different manners.
The Spiritual person can see the Light in all.
The Religious only see their own narrow band of light. The Divine Light
is Broad and contains all the colors of the Rainbow in a constant state
of change. The Divine includes all sects and paths.
Spiritual people are more open to other faiths and learn from each
other.
Religious people tend to only want to learn about their own path. If
only there were more Spiritual people in this world as opposed to
Religious people!

There are many people who are Religiously Spiritual or Spiritually
Religious. All the Paths to the Divine are about connecting with the
Spirit/Soul/Divine Light that is within us all and is also outside. The
Source is in all things as The Source IS all things.
Spiritual followers of many Paths might say, "The entirety of the
Universe is contained within a single flower. It takes all aspects of
the Universe to combine together and manifest in such a way as to create
the flower. The flower has always been there as the Source has always
been there."

I have tried not to use absolutes, as in"'ALL Religious/Spiritual people
Do This..." I myself do not like being labeled and thus grouped in with
others that have been labeled the same thing, whatever that thing is. We
are all different; we may be very similar, but no two people truly think
in exactly the same way. That is a part of the gloriously wonderful gift
of Free Will. We All connect with the Divine in a slightly different
manner. As long as the Universal truths come through and we can share
our Light with all, no matter what Path they may follow, we are doing
great. Finding the Spirit/Soul in Religion, any religion, is a step
along the Path.

There are truths in all Paths to the Divine. All have the same goal.
That goal is a reunion with the Divine. We must not be bogged down in
Dogma, no matter what the source. We are All beings of Light. The light
can and does shine through in all of us. It may be stronger in some than
others, but it is there in all. We should learn to see the Light in all
things be they animal, vegetable, or mineral. Everything in the known
existence and the many things we do not know about is composed of
Energy. It is all energy at different levels of vibration.

Universe = One Song.
One Song, heard by all throughout the entirety of existence.
One Song. One Message to all.
I feel that message is Love.
Love is the Law.
Love knows no religion. Love knows no nationality or country border.
Love is Love.


May we all grow into the Light bearing beings we truly are. May the
Divine Light shine upon us all. May it fill our hearts with Love. May we
all shine with Light and illuminate the Divine in all that surrounds us.
Even one small candle of Light increases the total.

MG, you have an intersting story. In many ways you seem to have found a
path that many relate to, even if they only seek the peace you that
eminates from your words. Though I too have some questions for you.
First I agree with Abra when he asks you:

""Would you not do these things if not for religious
faith? Would you not do them just for the sake of brotherly love and
humanitarianism?""

Also, it is extremely rare that anyone would choose to follow a path
that offers little creature comfort. For those of us, who were born and
live in a world of running water, refined and processed foods and stores
in which to buy our clothes, it is nearly unfathomable that we would,
could survive without these things, least of all find peace and
happiness. I adore those who give all they have, all they can, to
promote better lives for those who have no choice. However, I question
those who give up everything, to become one of those who needs
assistance to live.

So I have to ask, how will you eat, where will you live, how will you
come by clothes, medical treatment and how will you continue to help
others for this peace you say you've found?

I ask these things, because there are so few in this world, in
comparison to the population, who would work long and hard, who would
exchange their talents, their gifts for the ability to continue to aid
those less fortunate. However, to join their ranks, as you make it
sound, seems a selfish endeavor indeed.

I hope your peace finds no disparity in my words, they are not meant to
be hurtful. I chalk up my direct nature to the cynicism I have
developed when confronted with that which seems too good to be true.

It's easy be good or bad because that person knows what is good and what
is bad.
However, how many of us do good things because the other person, an
animal, and the earth by itself are our brothers and sisters. Under the
concept that God is the Creator and the Source of everything that is and
exists.
You may not need a religion, but if you are spiritual it's because you
have some knowledge of God.

Hi,

Just to answer a few. When I was doing my studies at Yale, I found that
all belief systems are in-fact a religion.

humanitarianism, for example is consider a religion.

All Martial Arts (which I study over seas) are all religions. In fact
some of the most religious people I know are martial artist. We spent
more time in meditation than we did in the actual fighting part.

Sometimes we answer our own questions, with our own questions.

I love Christ for a very simple reason. I love an have accepted his
teaching. The bible itself is not one book by any means. It is many
books put into the same binder. I find the Bible interesting because of
looking at the original languages that these books were written in. King
James tried to put his own spin on it, but I find the originals to be
much more interesting.

I also find that my masters in the arts felt the same way about Christ.

Let me bring up another interesting point. Do you know that Buddhist do
not follow the teaching of Buddha himself? Many people end up not
follow their own leader, yet use their name as a reference.

I just find these things interesting to study.

Oh there was one other question that was asked. I make my living from
anywhere in the world so I don't need to actually be in any economic
class. If you private me you will see that I have 4 magazines, so all I
need is a computer.

Have a great day!!!

And thanks for your insights.

michael