That's exactly what it is. It peaked in the 70's, the scientific community to disregard any religious teachings in order to justify the killing of animals for experimental use. There are also other ramifications that I won't elaborate upon. It's ALL to justify an industry that God would not approve.

Prior to Christianity in Europe the ancient arts where practiced. These people where very knowledgeable. BUT groups of people, (tribal mostly), would fight for dominance. So in order to overpower and dominate ANY people the beliefs of those people where also destroyed. The practice continues today. YOU should understand this.

I think you are a Wiccan? You must also understand that the Christians, (at that time, unlike the ones today), where pursued and killed by Rome. Rome being PAGAN at that time. Wicca also worshiped a God in ancient times. So the PAGANS are the ones that tried to destroy your religion.

Those Christians of yesterday only spread the word of God that was taught to them by Jesus. They never destroyed anyone in the name of their God. They never judged.

Now the Christians we have today only spread the post Catholic "information" that has been watered down by religions created circa 1950's. WHY? To increase their
revenues in their churches. How do they get these revenues to increase? By condemning other religions by doing what God has not intended. As Biblically stated.

As for the Catholics. Remember that during the post-Roman empire age there where 2 major fighting factions. for thousands of years. Religion was used to define what side people where on.

The oldest religion we have today are being persecuted to no extent by a religion founded around 600AD. That religion was not part of the European struggle.

Darwinism, aka non-believers, aka atheists wish to eradicate religions from the earth, even yours.

Notquite-

True there is energy that is in a lifeless body. It's called decomposition. That energy is so much less. For decay is energy. But truly you can't say that a steak rotting on the counter or even a whole cow left to rot has the same amount of energy as when it was alive. A dead corpse you must agree has not even 1/10 of the energy it did when it was alive. So, what happened to the other energy? It can't be explained.

But here you have given me another point of interest. Science has proven that when amputees are given new limbs or organs that traits from the previous owner can be transferred. For example an arm. One person for a fact ended up knitting. He never had the urge to knit before his newly acquired limb. Even woodworking etc...

The reason I state this is because science has learned what nature knew all along. They just needed proof. This learning experience came over 50 years after an organ transplant. Now if you want a limb transplant it is now over 10 years before they found this information to study.

JUST like electricity. At one point the ONLY way to know there was electricity without getting shocked or plug in a device to measure the electricity was to have FAITH that it was there. Now we have devices that can see electricity without getting shocked. Imagine working on power lines in the old days. No cell phones or CB's to communicate back to the branch to see if the electricity was shut off before a lineman or repairman worked on the pole. So faith was even used by science. I know this is somewhat of a bad example. But it is how we learned the FAITH concept when I was young in electronics. AND we did not have many of the devices that are used today.

Remember when RADON detectors came out? You imagine going to someones house and say. "I have a device that can detect a gas that is odorless, and you can not see it or smell it. It's ALL yours for $69.95." People would have laughed at you and closed the door.

Maybe one day science will detect souls that walk among us via electronic devices. AND be able to communicate with them.

It took over 40 years after the "discovery" of infrared to utilize it for a viewable technology. How do I know this? My father was the one to "utilize" it first when he worked for Texas Instruments. BUT the one thing that comes to mind. SOMEONE had to have the idea to try and develop the technology.

I'm so tempted to not respond and go do some math...lol, that's what I should be doing anyway. I'll respond though, in the hopes that it'll benefit the both of us.

I do hope you'll really consider what I'm writing to you. I benefit from this in that I can lay out my thoughts and practice writing, but really the benefit is yours to take, I feel. I'm writing this out of my love for you as a fellow human being; I'm writing this for you to profit.
Of course, it may also be that I'm extremely close-minded and narcissistic, but hey...




I do agree with you here to a certain extent...





But...first off, I think it's a little silly how you say I'm probably Wiccan. I don't know where that came from...'cause I'm not Wiccan.

Second, the first sentence of your reply is, "That's exactly what it is." What is exactly what what is? Please specify...

--I don't know why you say science forsook religion so they could justify using animals in experiments. Traditionally, scientific experiments were carried out by monks in monasteries and I would presume they used animals for experiments as well. Also, since in the Bible it says animals were made to serve our purposes, the Bible can be quoted directly to justify lab animals. I don't see why anyone needs to reject religion to have lab animals.
Finally, we would be far behind in terms of science were it not for lab animals. One day, once stem cell research is developed, we may not need animals to test medications. We'll be able to grow a system of organs in a basin and test the medications directly (at least that's what my biochemist aunt predicted).

Ah, you write that those ancient tribes fought for dominance, but that Christians were without such sin? How about how the Christians treated the Native Americans upon arriving here? Many Native American tribes were very peaceful and hardly waged war. What about the Inquisition? What about the Crusades? What about how the Pope supported and blessed Hitler's work with the Jews? The list of Christian crimes against humanity is long and spans through the ages.

So...that puts to rest the issue of the destruction of peoples and cultures in the name of Jesus and God...


And by the way, Darwin was Christian...at least for the first 42 years of his life...

Finally, I don't think all atheists want to eradicate all religions. I think more of them think education is the way to go, so that people can decide for themselves...and atheists perhaps hope that people decide to leave religion, but more importantly, decide for themselves. ^_^

About the energy left in a corpse after death:

Well, if I define matter as condensed energy (which is one "claim" that science makes), then after death, there is perhaps 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% *less energy left in a corpse.* Maybe even less than that. So...nope, I really can't agree with you.

What's more, the energy that does dissipate upon death dissipates as electricity and heat into the surrounding environment. Now, I don't discount the possibility that we have a soul, so perhaps the soul leaves as well. Science doesn't say that there *isn't* a soul, just that we haven't seen any *proof* of it yet.



Acquired limbs and organs:

I did not know that medical science could attach a limb to an amputee's body. That's truly incredible!
Yes, and I can believe that certain pleasures that involve repetitive motions, for example knitting, could be transfer to an amputee the way you describe. After all, muscles build up a certain muscle memory, I've heard. Certain muscle groups develop based on actions that we do frequently...

As for the transferring of traits when receiving an organ, I'd be a little more skeptical. After all, one's love for baseball is not contained in the kidneys!



"Science has learned what nature knew all along" :

Nature doesn't "know" anything. Nature is, to put it in Zen-like terms.
I don't quite understand what your point is when you say we didn't find out these things about organ/limb transplants until 50 or 10 years after. Nature works the way it does because it is, I believe, governed by the laws of physics. Scientists take it upon themselves to unravel the mystery that is nature, so why does it surprise you that it takes scientists years to figure things out? Scientists are only human...



About faith as a part of science:

Your example of the Radon Detector is very good. I think it says how faith and science coexist happily and necessarily in our daily lives, even if others don't quite catch on.
And yes, maybe one day, science will discover that there are, in fact, souls among us. I think that'd be a really cool discovery, although it'd be a little unnerving...just think...people walking around us all the time looking at what we're doing, watching our every move...gazing at us longingly with sad, dead eyes, wishing they could return to life once more...

I'm seriously creeped out now. Of course, souls don't have to be haunting like I just described them to be, but sometimes it's fun to feel creeped out, lol.

Anyway...everyone uses faith all the time. The Scientific Method *assumes* that when we make an observation, this observation can be used to make conclusions. When we *assume* something, this is essentially taking a leap of faith. Thus, faith is how science operates at the most fundamental level. After all, if we doubted even our senses, science could not proceed, nor could we live our daily lives. Taking things on faith allows us to move onto other challenges.

Finally, I don't quite understand the point of all your examples. Your first post on this thread mostly denounced science and questioned the reliability of science, but now you are quoting examples of science's successes...

Anyhow...I'm off to do some math and read some politics. ^_^

You link belief in god with good acts and righteousness, and lack of belief with only pleasing yourself. I find this a disingenuous analysis. There is no link between religion and goodness, and lack of religion and badness. If god is some kind of belief tyrant and I go to hell for not believing then I personally wouldn't respect nor worship such a tyrant even with perfect evidence of its existence, so I am destined there anyway with such a tyrant. I guess you could say he has made me not to respect him . . . lol. If there is a god and he does not care about belief, but does ask that you lead a good life considering and caring about your fellow humans, then I have nothing to fear.

I will never bash a person for being a Christian, or doing good things, even in the name of their religion, only for claiming preeminence from that religious doctrine and belief, only for pushing agenda on others. Only for trying to take what is not theirs by some divine right.

I am not going to respond to the rest of the thread . . . . and to be nice I wont even say why.

This is true of everything that can be known, poeple think they are right, but we can find out with most things who is right and who is wrong, the problem with religion is that it cannot be known.
The religious claim to know what cannot be known, and then get upset when someone points that out . . . is that my fault as an atheist that people get upset when its shown that there is no rational reason to believe in a all powerful miracle generating prayer answering no amputee fixing gay hating woman hating megalomaniacal patricidal filicidal sky daddy?

This is an absurd and hideously biased statement and I will explain why. You are lingering under the fallacious notion that proclaiming oneself to be a "Christian" is somehow synonymous with being a wonderful, caring, loving human being. This is certainly not the case. Some Christians are good people and some are in prison for being child molesters, rapists and murderers.

Historically, Christianity and its devout followers have demanded the executions of thousand upon thousand of innocents.

A much more fair assessment would be to state that humans in general are capable of working toward the tremendous good and the benefit and fulfillment of others. Or they posses the ability to commit unthinkable atrocities, murder and mayhem. This runs across the board.

Making grand, sweeping generalizations such as this is quite silly.

I think in the 10 years I have been on line and have had my ministry this sums it up best....And I also firmly believe in showing by example...Which of course I am human and does not always work. But I do know one thing also...With no exception whether a panthiest, athiest, pagan, or whatever the personal beliefs are I get prayer requests when something happens from all.

I have never once seen a prayer request from an atheist, I call BS.

That is the old no atheist in a fox hole blather.

Also I can concede to you that this HAS happened, but what does that win you? Does that make you right? LOL

Sad reasoning is sad.

I think a lot of people misunderstand concerns aimed at the Biblical picture of God, with being aimed at them personally.

I believe that the Biblical picture of God is deeply flawed, inconsistent, contradictive, and downright ungodly.

Now you might say, "Well fine, it that's what you believe then why don't you just ignore the picture and move on to something else".

On a personal level I have done just that. However, on a social level Christian proselytizing is relentless, and Christian organizations are indeed political and threaten to have an affect on the entire world whether people agree with the picture or not.

Many Christians organizations are currently trying to get their creation myth taught in schools along side the scientific observations that we have evolved from lower animals. That's a political agenda. As a humanitarian one way to fight against that movement is to show why the Biblical picture of God is flawed and does not merit serious consideration.

After all, we're talking about a book here that claims to be the voice of the creator of all humanity. I'm a human. That gives me every right to voice my thoughts on why I believe that book to be a fraud (i.e. not from any God).

People might say that I have no right to bash a religion that I reject. But as a human, I have every right to contest a book that claims to be the voice of the creator all of humanity.

So for me, it's really not even a religious issue. It's a humanitarian issue.

Christian organizations, also denounced same-gender love and relationships, they also denounced medical research in the area of stem cells, they also denounce all non-Christians as being 'unsaved' and therefore being out of touch with God at the very least, or even siding with God's enemy Satan!

In fact, to be a true Christian a person must not only believe in Jesus, but they must also believe in both, the God of Abraham, and in Satan.

As far as I'm concerned the proof that Jesus was not the son of the God of Abraham is in the biblical story itself. The Bible is necessarily false. And as a human I have every right to denounce this book as being false since it claims to speak for the creator of all humanity.



If you actually base your life on the teachings of Jesus then you're also basing your life on the teaching of Buddha. You can't satisfy the teachings of one of these men without simultaneously satisfying the other. So why not just become a Buddhist? Then you won't be plagued by the horrible teaching of the Old Testament and the God of Abraham.

There is nothing that Jesus taught that hadn't already been taught by Buddha. In fact the parallels between what Jesus taught and what Buddha taught are so striking that many scholars believe that Jesus was indeed teaching the lessons of Buddha.

Moreover, Jesus totally denounced the teaching of the God of Abraham. Jesus denounced the judging of others, the stoning of sinners, and the seeking of revenge and instead taught not to judge others and to forgive them and turn the other cheek.

So it's vividly clear that Jesus was teaching the very same things as Buddha, and the total opposite of what the God of Abraham had taught people to do.

There is no reason at all to believe that Jesus had anything at all to do with the God of Abraham.



If you support a religion of bigotry and division you will have lost your humanity.



Well, first off you seem to be implying that atheism is the only alternative to Christianity which is an insult to all other divine faiths.

It's not as simple as that. There are far better picture of God available. Buddhism is one religion that is far better than the Biblical picture of God. However, you don't even need religion to be spiritual. I denounce religion, yet I consider myself to be quite spiritual and close with my creator.

I personally believe that God (or Spirit) is omniscient in everything. And so I view nature in this way and because of this I respect all life, including plants and animals as being part of the divine essence of the world.

I personally feel that if you are worshiping a mythical external judgmental God that supposedly is separate from this world, then you have a lot to lose. You lose your place in nature, and your closeness to the spirit.

So just for reasons of spirituality and compassion alone I would be compelled to suggest to others that a pantheistic view of life is far better than to cower down to a jealous judgmental godhead that most likely does not exist. And even if it did exist it would clearly be immoral by human standards.



Wouldn't you rather live by faith and be right? What's wrong with placing your faith in the pantheistic picture of spirit? If your only reason to place faith in the Biblical picture is to avoid being condemned to hell then you're truly living a life of fear.

If you believe that if you appreciate the divinity all of nature and see God in everything that this will somehow bring God's wrath upon you, they you are viewing God as a very mean egotistical external judgmental being who has no compassion for humanity or nature at all.

Any God who doesn't love a pantheist is no God at all but a demon. Because a pantheist loves all of God's creatures great and small, and views them as being spiritually equal to humans.



I think the biblical picture of a jealous egotistical judgmental God who taught people to judge each other and throw stone is a truly sick and demented picture of our creator and I vehemently reject it as being ungodly and not the slightest bit divine.



We are all children of the spirit. The point of life is to share life and help each other in positive ways (and not to randomly accuse people as being heathens or sinners just because some ancient mythology claims that God is a angry jealous bigot).

The point to life is to become one with nature, and the cycles of natures and with all the animals of the world as well as the living foliage.

This is why I have turned to the nature-based philosophies. I worship the Moon Goddesses and the Sun Gods and the Spirit of Nature, as well as the Animal Spirit of the animal kingdom.

Now you might say, "But that book with the jealous God says that thou shalt have no other Gods before ME!"

So? The book is false.

Besides once you recognize that God is omniscient in nature you view the term "worship" in a whole new light. Worship simply means to love. Period. It doesn't mean to cower down to authority. In fact, the very idea of a God who demands to be loved before anything else is disgusting. No creature sure ever demand to be loved. It's either lovable or it isn't. You don't command people to love you. They love you because you are lovable.

Once you understand this you learn to love God because She is lovable, and not because He is threatening to be mean to you if you fail to obey his dastardly commands.

So yes, I totally denounce the Bible as being ungodly and inhumane.

I do this as a human being. I'm not denouncing a 'religion' I'm denouncing a book. I believe that book was written by a bigoted male chauvinistic society that needed to use a God as an excuse to murder their enemies.

I see no reason whatsoever to believe that the Bible was inspired by an divine being. It simply isn't a divine story. It's a story of a self-confessed jealous egotistical Godhead who uses threats of eternal damnation to try to get people to love him.

It's a picture of a truly pathetic God.

In truth I would rather pure atheism be true than the Bible.

I'd rather there be no God at all, than to discover that God is an egotistical male chauvinistic jealous pig. That would be a far greater nightmare and a true disappointment. I would much rather just die than to discover that our creator is so despicable.

But fortunately like I say, it really doesn't come down to either the atheism or the Biblical picture. There are other pictures of God available and pantheism makes the most sense. It a picture of a truly intelligent wise God that genuinely has unconditional love to offer to everyone and makes no threats of any kind to anyone.

So I choose pantheism as the most likely picture of spirit.

~~~

Now you may say, "But what if you're wrong?"

Hey, if God truly is a jerk then is there really any difference between heaven and hell?

If the Bible is true, then God is a jerk, for the Bible tells us so.

If God would send a loving pantheist to hell for loving nature and all of humanity, then what does that say about God's compassion?

This is a huge contradition in the Christian view of the Bible right there. Any God who would be mean to loving poeple for not believing that he is a jerk would be a truly pathetic God. Yet there is no way to believe that the Bible is true without also believing that God is a jerk, for the Bible tells us so.

The religion cannot possibly be true. Period.

Little bit of an ego trip being displayed here? You are implying that those of all of these differing faiths or beliefs are coming to Deb specifically to receive Christian prayer? Please. How many Christians on these threads do we see routinely wandering over to the pagan/Wiccan threads asking for tarot card readings and information about spells?

Sorry!

To follow in 'Bushidobillyclub' and 'Krimsa's' general line,

I'd like to point out similar discrepancies in your OP 'DeKLiNe0fMaN' by underlining the age old and dangerously misleading comment and/or accusation of this ancient victimizing 'chistians under attack' mantra.

As long as someone truly brainwashes himself in believing the dangerous delusion that he is 'under attack', HE UNCONSCIOUSLY AND IRRESPONSIBLY JUSTIFIES HIMSELF IN COMMITTING THE MOST UNSPEAKABLE AND MOST IMMORAL ACTS ON THE PLANET.

No christians have ever been, are, or will be under any form of attack SIMPLY FOR 'BELIEVING' OR SIMPLY FOR 'BEING CHRISTIANS'!!!

To write on this post that
'... I notice that a lot of people come under attack just for 'being christian' ...'

is not only profoundly inaccurate, and unfounded in reality, IT IS PARTICIPATING IN THIS 'APOLOGETICS' RETROGRADE MENTALITY THAT CHRISTIANS ARE UNDER ATTACK,

... AND THAT THEY MUST LEGITIMATELY FIGHT WITH ALL THEIR MIGHT, FOR THEIR BELIEFS, THEIR LORD AND THEIR GOD!!!

In 2009, in the western worLd, in the 'church and state seperated CONSTITUTIONAL US' it is nothing other than HERESY.

But more importanly, it is an outright lie, whether intentional or not.

People on these forums, or out there in the world are never being 'attacked' for 'BEING' CHRISITIANS, or being of any other faith.

What is being pointed out to you and the likes of you, is that you are PROSELYTIZING on top of 'being christian', or maybe in spite of it!!!

Maybe it is unconscious. Maybe it is unintentional, that is possible, but you do proselytize. And proselytizing is a mark of huge condecesndance and disrespect towards others. You can't seriously expect that no one will REACT, and shout 'foul'!!!

Subtely or not so subtely, you start by separating the good and the bad, and then imposing a particular 'moralizing' point of view which is yours, and YOU judge that it is good, with the sole intent of attracting others to subscribe to it.

How can one not fall for your 'can't go wrong lottery' trap.
If you believe and there is no god you were covered during your life, and, if you believe and there is a god, you're OK for the whole afterlife.
'... Sign up today for the 2 way 'god-backed' good life and death protection policy, you'll save, ... and be saved !!!

That's proselytizing 'DeKLiNe0fMaN'!!!

Nothing to do with just 'BEING CHRISTIAN'.

Try again, and drop the apologetics proselytizing tactics.

Respectfully to you 'being fully and most legitimately christian according to YOUR beliefs'.

Where in the Bible does it forbid the killing of animals? Or even go into depth about the mistreatment of animals?

Even Jesus helped men become fishers.

I would think that pantheism would be a far greater threat to industries that kill animals.

How many Christains are vegetarians? None that I know of!

In fact, I'm sure that many meat markets and animal farmers are indeed Christians themselves.

I don't see where Christianity could be used as an excuse to protect animals.

In fact, most Christians don't even believe that animals have spirits, that's a pagan belief.

Oh really well I guess you don't have access to my personal e-mail....and yes I sure have. In fact many atheists have asked that I pray for them....And yes I would give names but it's private....But trust me I don't lie and yes I give you permission to make a thread on it.....As a matter of fact make a thread on does feralcatlady pray for you and also does she lie...I think the evidence would be abundant.

Yep K that is exactly what I am saying...I am a proud prayer warrior and it has nothing to do with ego...It's them seeing that my prayers are answered..And take it any way you like....don't really care...but I will always pray for those that ask. It just is fact. I wouldn't know about the tarot card readings as I don't go there....

feral, I don't doubt that you pray for atheists, I do doubt, that those atheists have actually asked for it.

I agree with Ink. While there is no way to substantiate your statement that Atheists or anyone for that matter, has ever consulted you personally for prayer, it is also highly unlikely this has ever occurred. I imagine you only made the statement because it is impossible to substantiate one way or the other. So yes, it is clearly an ego driven referance and you needed to be called on it.

This thread is based on the belief from an argument from Pascal's Wager who mentioned what do you have to lose if you believe in God to opposed to not believing.

http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/pascals-wager.htm

I believe if one has to believe in a God/Goddess/Force/Enlightenment or what have you, then why not one that is peaceful with everything that exists. There are over 2000 religions and who knows how many thousands of spiritual belief systems existing in this world alone. I mean you can even invent your own belief system if you like. If you are creative enough give it a shot. Be your own spiritual teacher to find inner peace within yourself and to others.

What is important is you can wake up in the morning enjoying your day without having a guilty conscience in the process. To be able to practice your individual faith system (if you want to call it this) without harming others in the process.

It seems for many it is a big challenge to do this, but don't give up, you can attain great wealth of wisdom of how to coexist in peace if you truly seek a way to do so.

Truly.

If you're going to place your faith in a religion why not believe in one that places all of nature as being divine rather than one that claims that God is out to send people to hell?

Well a lot of people come under attack for not believing as well, though I have noticed for a while now that Christians feel picked on, but they might consider how that happened by their expecting everyone else to fall in line. If you ridicule me for not believing one can expect the same I suppose.

If you believe and after death you find there is no God you have lived well anyway. If I do not believe in god and have spent my life always trying to do the right thing, then if I die and find there is a God, what then? Should I be punished for eternity simply because I didn't believe. That seems to be the problem from many of us. If your god punishes me for that, after having lived a conscious life, then it would appear that your god is not all that merciful or conscious. I still have lost nothing by living a decent life while living, but I would be a loser in your god's eyes should he/she exist. Not a God I could find much use for, frankly. I would hope that a God would be much more compassionate than we ordinary folks. It seems that all too often Christians think they are their particular god and that their god thinks as they do.

I don't know why you assume that if I don't believe that I would care to live my life only pleasing myself, anyone with an ounce of compassion would find that Unsatisfying in the long run. Life's ups and downs alone should teach people that selfishness only goes so far in anyone's life.

So I would rather live by my conscience than to live a lie. It would be a lie to me to admit there is a god when I do not necessarily believe it. You seem to have the notion, 'oh well I won't take any chances and go ahead and believe' that way I won't loose if their is a god, that doesn't sound like someone that is so sure of god themselves.

I am not sure I can answer what is the point to anyone's life, but I will always try to live it as well as I can and try to make my life as meaningful as possible.