Krisma

When Jesus was asked to address the issue of keeping the Old Testament law, he said it could be summed up in two commandments: “Love The Lord God with all your heart, soul and mind and Love your neighbor as yourself.

Matthew 22:37-40 and my words up there...lol

Jesus illustrated the latter part of this dual command by reminding the crowd that our “neighbor” includes those we are least inclined to love and that our love should be expressed in a way that meets their needs. (Jews)

The Apostle Paul repeated this emphasis on love as summing up the “entire law” (Galatians 5:14). These words were directed against those who were trying to keep applying (especially to others) some of the Old Testament laws and
regulations. Paul reminded them that they have been called

BY CHRIST TO FREEDOM FROM THE LAW AND TO LIFE IN SPIRIT. No yelling just very important.

Those being led by the Spirit are not under the law (5:18) . . . any of the law. Christ’s sacrifice was not provided that we might try to be obediently righteous in keeping the law.

It made us righteous and freed us from our obligations to the law (1 Corinthians 1:30; 2 Corinthians 5:21).
This change in “rules for living” is a direct result of the redemptive work of Christ (Galatians 3:13). In his body on the cross, the law “with its commands and regulations” was abolished (Ephesians 2:15). It is not the beginning of an antinomian lifestyle, but a reminder that the believer lives, not by law, but by the Spirit (Galatians 6:18 and context). The sanctifying work of the Spirit is not a result of observing the law, but comes from our belief in the Gospel message (Galatians 3:5). It is a life based on love for God and love for others (1 Timothy 1:5-11).

Does the law have any value for the New Testament believer?

Certainly. On the one hand the law reminds us of our sin, our inability to keep the law, and the absolute necessity for grace to free us from the law. The law was a temporary covenant until Jesus came (Galatians 3:19); holding us prisoners to the law until Jesus came and made us “no longer under the supervision of the law” (Galatians 3:23-29). This passage is especially relevant as it relates to gender laws and regulations as Paul immediately goes on to say that the distinctions that the law used to make (Jew/Greek, slave/free, male/female or ethnic, economic, and gender) are no longer significant because we belong to Christ by the grace of the new covenant and not law-keeping. REMEMBER BEFORE IT WAS ONLY JEWS....again not yelling just want that point put in memory bank K.

Paul also reminds us that the law was not made for the redeemed but for rebels against God (1 Timothy 1:9), serving the purpose of helping the lost see the great need for grace (the whole argument of Romans 7:4 – 8:2). In Christ, we are “released from the law” (Romans 7:6).

While Paul, repeatedly says that law keeping is of no value
in seeking to live separated lives (Colossians 2:13-23 for instance) and that those that try to get others to keep the law are foolish (i.e., 1 Timothy 1:7), Paul does recognize, though, that some will try to use the law to bring discipline to their own lives. The whole argument of Romans 14 is that these areas of self-discipline (many of which are based on Old Testament laws and regulations) Miles

Brothers and sisters in Christ are not to flaunt their freedom in a way which hurts others, but they are also not to let what they know to be good to be spoken of as evil. Paul says that these are matters of individual conscience where each person should be convinced in his/her own mind, not judge others and, as much as possible, live in peace with others by keeping the differences to one’s self. Unfortunately some – even in the name of Christianity – believe it is their job to be the conscience of others, judge them, promote strife, and elevate personal differences to sanctimonious certitude. I DO NOT

Then wouldn’t that mean he was rejecting the law of Yahweh?

No krisma because God sent Jesus and now Jesus is the Law, because there is no other way except through Christ. And for anyone that lives by the OT law only well it just isn't so. Because then you are saying God sent Christ to earth for nothing. You are saved by Faith in Jesus Christ and by Grace.

Where Krisma when I say Jesus doesn't stone people that people do. Do you get that I am (your words) saying that these men were NOT divinely inspired at all. Hmm haven’t the non-believers being saying this for months now?

The Romans excuted Jesus at the request of the Jews darling...They were asked to choose between Jesus and a murderer Barrabus they chose to put Jesus to death...They executed the one that was sent to release them. The same people who put the law first for a God they loved, killed the one that was most important to God....Do you get how huge that is...And even for me and others now..We killed Jesus. That is why I thank him first a foremost because of what Christ did for me.

Also another lil tid bit for you to add to the memory bank....Not only did God know all this was going to happen before it did but so did Jesus.


You don't have to like any of it or believe any of it...And I am sorry to say but what you think does not really matter in the whole scope of what is. When God and/or Christ want us to come to them...It has to be of our own freewill...So if you don't then so be it...that is your choice.

And I am not telling you any of this to change your mind but in order for you to get the facts straight.

My point with injustices to all people has always been part of life. And instead of being here *****ing about it...Get out there and do something about it. I DO

I don't cling to it darling....I love the Lord because "HE" has shown me. And again don't believe it don't by it...I don't care but it happen and no matter what you say won't change it....So I go and do as the Lord asks of me. Does this make me not a strong woman? To the contrary because of the Lord I am stronger, I do as I am led with more passion and compassion then most. I don't shove anything on anyone, I answer honestly and with a loving heart.

My Love for Christ is my security blanket and I am not ashamed. I know the Lord has wonderful great plans for my life and I love Life and take it by the balls so to speak...lol My life just for me has never been more easy, the work is more in terms of the Lord, but I dig it and I am thankful everyday for what the Lord my God shows me and where he leads me. And honestly I can say that I do make a difference and as one human being on this planet that is huge.

I love Amnesty International, have also worked with them and Women for Women and a ton of other organization to help the woman that truly have no rights. And if your working and tryng to make a difference Krisma then again that is the best thing ever. And again I applaud you.

And again it is God's laws that people take and twist and take to serious that causes all the injustices for women in the first place. Is it right...hell no it's not but hopefully like with me going around to different countries and getting laws passed that will change...I already have seen that.

Well, there you go.

Christians totally deny Jesus by worshiping Jesus as God. Jesus himself said to love the Lord God with all your hear not HIM!

He also said to love your neighbor as yourself. But Christians denounce all non-Christians as having rejected God. Clearly that's not loving their neighbor, that's passing judgments on their neighbor!

In fact, Jesus also taught not to judge, but that's all that Christians ever do!

They judge everyone who refuses to recognize Jesus as the son of the God of Abraham as having rejected "God".

But Jesus never even claimed to be the son of the God of Abraham.

Christians are the ones who have it all wrong Feral. They don't speak for Jesus, and they don't do the things that he asked people to do.

Pagans are far more Christ-like than the Christians.

Pagans recoginize the ominscience of God and worship God in everything just as Jesus has suggested that we should do.

Christians, on the other hand, are so busy judging others as having rejected God that they even see that God is already in the hearts of the pagans.

No one is closer to God than I AM, Feral. And no one is further from God either.

So climb down off your high and mighty horse.

You don't speak for GOD! No one does!

We are all God's Children just as Jesus had acknowledged. We are all Gods just as Jesus had acknowledged.

Pagans are just as close to God as anyone, and obviously a whole lot closer to God than the judgmental Christian Fudamentalists who continually insist on judging others who don't hold their warped view that Jesus himself was the one and only begotten son of the God of Abraham.

Jesus never claimed that, and it's totally incorrect. So you aren't speaking for Jesus. You're just speaking for a truly distorted religion that rebelled against Catholicism.

Protestants are such rebels.

First they rebel against the Catholic Church, then they go around insulting eveyone who genuinely worships the omniscient God of Nature by claiming that they are rejecting God because they refuse to believe that Jesus was the son of the God of Abraham.

Pagans worship God!

And anyone who says they don't is a liar.

It's bad enough that Christians have to get prissy with atheists, but they foam at the mouth with eveyone, pagans, Jews, or muslims. They even fight with each other in their myriad of confused sects of Catholicism and Protestantism.

They're just like wide dogs foaming at the mouth pointing fingers at other people proclaiming that they are rejecting God because they refuse to belive in some utterly stupid myth of a God of Abraham.

Sorry Feral, but the God of Abraham does not exist. The creator of this universe is far more loving.

Like it or not, that's the true.

God also doesn't care whether anyone worships Her. God isn't an egotist like the Bible claims.

All you are preaching is that God gets peeved with anyone who doesn't worship him.

But that woudn't be much of a God Feral, that would be an egotistical spoiled brat.

It's absurd and insulting to suggest that God is an egotistical spoiled brat, but that's all you ever do!

If this were true, then Jesus was going against the word of Yahweh from the OT Law.



Is this the same misogynist Paul? The OT law was handed down from Yahweh.



Answer this question. No copy and pasted exegesis. Was the Law of the OT the word of Yahweh or not? How many gods are there?



So was this the LAW of YAWEH or NOT? Not yelling just asking. I’m sick of all the double talk. Give me a straight answer.




You got that one point right. Now address these others.




Isn’t it obvious to you? You are trying to offset blame from the OT law (that was handed down by Yahweh) and claim that humans were stoning and not god. Well who were these humans supposedly inspired by? Hmm?




Right. The Romans had very little interest in it one way or another. They were killing TONS of prisoners at this point in history and only some were even Christians. The Romans had no vested interest in this. It was the Jews who considered Jesus to be a threat. My statement stands. Without the execution of Jesus, you would have no path to salvation today. The bottom would fall out of Christianity.





That’s not only debatable; it’s irrelevant to this discussion.




I don’t like any of it. I can not rightfully condone the sanctimonious murder of innocents. I will not become a Christian. In fact I believe that people can be good in spite of calling themselves Christian.


...

Do you think it matters to me whether or not you believe me or not? I am using the scripture to make my points.



Absolutely and I reject him based on his atrocious proclamations and aberrant behavior.



Name one fact that I have misquoted. I have clearly demonstrated the accuracy of these claims based on the bible itself.



What do you call volunteering for Amnesty International for 4 years exactly? Just because there have "always been injustices" does not mean I will bow my head in submission to the god responsible for perpetrating these horrors.




Then you are left with two options. Either these men who wrote these versus in the bible were simply misogynist pigs and not truly inspired by any divine creator

Or

Your god is a chauvinistic ass.

Which is it?

Truly.

Christian want it both ways.

They want to claim that Jesus was the Son of the God of Abraham, yet at the same time they want to denounce the Old Testament as being 'Not of God'.

It's bull crap.

Either the Old Testament is the Word of God (which means that Jesus blasphemed the word of God).

Or the Old Testament was just made up crap by the Jews (which is precisely my position), and therefore Jesus could NOT have been the son of the God of Abraham.

No matter which way you slice it, Jesus could NOT have been the son of the God of Abraham.

So these Jesus Freaks who are trying to claim that Jesus is God are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

The story makes no sense.

You can't have Jesus being God and the God of Abraham also being God.

That would imply that God is schizophrentic and in desperate need of mental assistence.

The Christian Bible can't be true. Period.

abra abra abra:


It's hard for Debbie to deal with your posts anymore because it's like dealing with funch...you don't read you just rant...But I will try and let's see what happens.


I have taken contradictions and shown where if you take the whole passage in context it gives a whole new meaning to it...The right and true meaning.

I deny it for me, myself, and I abra because to me the Bible is truth, and therefore if inspired of God (for me) then no contradictions. If it gets you through life to think that there are then so be it I am not changing your mind, and I never had any intention of doing so.


1. Jesus is a direct decedent to Abraham. Jesus Christ is the son of God and therefore is also a direct decedent of Abraham by blood. Jesus in no way shape of form rejected his Father God.....We are all the children of Christ...Christ is the Son of God....And only through Christ can you get to the Father God.....Do you see how you twist to fit and it is just not right. You are trying to put a round peg in a square hole.

Again read what I wrote to Krisma and it will explain your rant on thinking that God was a chuavinistic anything. And remember this for your memory banks Abra. God's laws were just that. And it was Jews thinking they were all that that made all the rules for women and people on what they could and could not do. It was not God nor was it Jesus.

God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, if you want to be techincal. And what on earth would ever make you think that we do not put God in the utmost place where he belongs. It was God that sent Jesus to do exactly everything that he did. And like I told Krisma all the way to Jesus' death they both knew all that was going to happen in Jesus' life on earth. Jesus Christ is a direct decedent through blood to Abraham and even to King David.

ABRA SAID:

Since when do you worship a sacrificial lamb as God? Jesus was no God, even if the Bible was true he was nothing more than a sacrificial lamb of a God. You're not supposed to worship the sacarificial lamb, you're supposed to bow down and worship the male chauvinistic pig who has his son nail to a pole as a sacrifice.

Debbie says:

This is a perfect example of how you butcher what is meant....Lamb of God in latin it is Agnus Dei this is merely a title given to Jesus in the New Testament. It refers to Jesus' role as a sacrificial lamb atoning for the sins of man in Christian theology, going back to ancient Jewish Temple sacrifices in which a lamb was slain during the passover (the "Paschal Lamb", Hebrew), the blood was sprinkled on the altar, and the whole of the lamb was eaten. We are also called his sheep but not in a literal sense....duh

Ever contradiction has a counter but you are all in denial when it is laid before you....So abra believe as you wish....I don't really care...It's your life to live as you see fit. Just as it is mine to live as I see fit.

When you say Jesus could not possibly have been the son of the God of Abraham. What are you saying?

Abra said:

Even John recognized the pantheistic view that Jesus taught:

John 4:12 “No one has ever seen God, but if we love each other, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.”

See God lives within us.

And this comes directly from the Bible.

Debbie Says: Again taken out of context to fit what Abra "thinks" God is in us that part is true....but not that all things are god that is just not true. The trees, flowers, mountains, goats, dogs, cats, are not god....

And another memory bank add in.

JESUS CHRIST WAS IN HEAVEN WITH HIS FATHER GOD. WHOM THEN GOD SENT HIM TO EARTH. AND THEN WHEN GOD RESURRECTED JESUS FROM THE DEAD, HE AGAIN IS SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF HIS FATHER UNTIL GOD SENDS HIM BACK AGAIN.

And it is you that spits not only in the face if Jesus Christ, but also of his Father God....To deny Jesus is the worst of the worst for God...

But again abra you choice....so it said. so it is so. continue to do so every day.

Awwwww this is to perfect.....again a total mis- interpretation of scripture...

Abra said:

First off, Jesus taught not to pray in public like the Pharisees, yet Christian Fundamentalists spit in the face of Jesus and push to have public prayer in schools.

Clearly these Christians hate Jesus and have no respect for him at all.

Debbie says:

I believe the main verses that speak to this issue come from Jesus's sermon on the mount: "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men.

In the first part of that quote, Jesus's focus is on the public prayers, true, but not of the believer, but of the hypocrite. With God, it is not just the outward appearances that matters, which the Pharisees of Jesus's day only focused on. But the condition of the heart. In short, one's motivation counts as much, if not more, than what is said or where. If you publicly pray, for the purpose of getting others to see you pray, then Jesus says you'll have no further reward. Jesus encourages the believers to shun ostentatious religious displays, and spend time alone with God.

Also speaking on this subject, "As he taught, Jesus said, "Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted in the marketplaces, and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely."" [Mark 12:28-40] I do not believe that Jesus is condemning solely long prayers made in public here, but the entire package of a person not following God's commands combined with false religion put on for show.

Did Jesus pray privately? Absolutely...Matthew 14:23, 26:39,42,44 (and parallel verses about Gethsemane in the other gospels) Mark 1:35, 6:46, Luke 5:16, 6:12. Luke 5:16 states this succinctly: "But Jesus often withdrew to lonely places and prayed." However, the definition of 'private' was larger in some places: "Once when Jesus was praying in private and his disciples were with him, he asked them, "Who do the crowds say I am?"" [Luke 18:18] While this is not prayer time spent alone with God, it was with a close group of friends. Jesus's prayer in John 14-16 for his believers, and the church by extension, on the way to Gethsemane, was also with a a small group of his disciples and probably a few others.

Also, Jesus did practice some level of public prayer: "Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them. Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there." [Matthew 19:13-15] It was Jesus's disciples that didn't want public prayer for some reason..taking too long, they thought audience wouldn't be receptive, or any other reason....but Jesus took the time to pray for kids.

Jesus also reinforced God's words in the Old Testament that "my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations." [Isaiah 56:7b] That house was God's temple, built first by Solomon, and rebuilt later in the time of Ezra. [Ezra 3:8-13] Jesus threw out those who'd turned the area for gentiles (non-Jews) into a marketplace, instead of allowing it to be used for prayer. [Matthew 21:12-13] Jesus wanted the temple to be used for its specified purposes, and that did include prayers given in public.

In fact, in a parable, Jesus reinforces that prayers at the temple were acceptable, if the heart attitude was right: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.[Luke 18:10-14]

In our own lives, there are several levels of how many others are around us in prayer, just like Jesus. At the most private level, there's prayer time spent alone with God. This is something I believe everyone should have regularly, following Jesus's example and comment in Matthew 6:6 to do so. This is where you can be in undistracted time spent with God, focusing on him... his attributes and what's he done, confessing any and all sins of the heart, and praying for others.

Next up on the levels of prayer are those offered by a small group of believers-- from 2 to about 15 people. Examples of this include praying as a family, to a discipleship/accountability partner/group, to a church group. This is like Jesus praying 'privately' with his disciples, a group of believers united in prayer.

At the largest level of prayer are those done in church services. It is customary for the pastor to offer one or more prayers during the course of a service, such as prayer for people or events at church, to the pastor's pronouncing of a blessing on the congregation. That's a fairly public prayer, as not everyone hearing it may be a believer, yet this is not to be blindly opposed.

What can we learn from all of this? Given the evidence in Jesus's life referenced above, to say nothing of all the other instances of public prayer in the Bible. I would say that focusing on where prayers are offered is the wrong issue. Jesus repeatedly said that it's the heart attitude that matters most, rather than appearances and practices. So, search your heart before prayer, and always seek that God, not you, will be glorified through the prayer and every other action you do.

Now again for me here on mingle....When prayer is asked...I don't say ok and write I will pray...If the Lord so puts in on my heart I pray right then and there...And I don't stop praying until it is off my heart. And not because of anything other then they asked me and for the Glory of God.

I was asked once what the greatest thing I ever learned about the Lord...I summed it up like this.

Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so.

I have never shoved anything on anyone...Like I said to K. I answer to the best of my ability with Love.

Deb using a bunch of copy and pasted exegesis is a waste of time. If you cant say it in your own words, I have no faith that you even understand half of what you post. You throw it up there in the hope that people will think "gee, thats really long and unrelated so it must be correct."

Think again.

Yes, but the Bible also tells you that God commanded that women should not speak out publicly on religious matters, yet you don't seem to care much for God's opinion on that one.

You're a Salad Bar Christian. You just take what you think tastes good and reject the rest.

Buddha loves you too.

Or don't you care about Buddha?

Jesus was a humanitarian and a civil rights leader who spoke out against the teachings of a very violent religion.

Jesus loved all humans.

Anyone who accepts love automatically accepts Jesus no matter what their religious beliefs might be, or even if they are an atheist.

The idea that people need to recognize that Jesus was the son of the God of Abraham and that the entire Old Testament must then also be the true laws of God is nothing more than religious demagoguery.

Jesus has nothing to do with Christianity. Christianity is a political organization that uses the name of Jesus to incite bigotry and judgment against non-members of the club.

Jesus was not the son of the God of Abraham. That's the bottom line.

Whether he loves you or not doesn't change that fact.

God never says anything. You might think he loves you but there is nothing to substantiate that claim other than you having faith that he loves you. Based on his behavior, the violence, the killing, the OT law, I don’t believe that “love" is an emotion I would readily associate with god.

Truly.

In fact, this is one of the things that helped me to realize that if a God exists it must necessarily be far more grand than the Bible suggests.

If someone tells me that "Jesus loves me". What could this possibly mean to me?

Well, to begin with, if I am able to comprehend this idea at all it means that I must have an understanding of what love is.

So to comprehend the idea, I must already know love myself.

But it doesn't stop there. Religious people tell me that God's love is infinitely greater than I can even imagine!

Ok, let's stop right there.

The love I already know in my heart far exceeds the emotions and actions exhibited by the biblical God of the Old Testament.

Therefore, my own personal love would already far exceed the love of God.

However, religious people assure me that God's love is far greater than anything I could even imagine.

Therefore the only conclusion that is possible is that the Bible has absoltuely nothing to do with God because it doesn't even live up to the love I can imagine.

Therefore if God's love exceeds mine, then the Bible cannot possibly be true.

Again, end of story.

Thus I've turned to pantheism. This is a picture of infinite unconditional love. Therefore the pantheistic picture of God has, at least, the possiblity of being a true picture of God, whereas the Bible does not.

God defined: The Higher self and the collective subconscious.

God defined: I AM THAT I AM. (The event horizon.)

Proof that God loves you is that you exist.

You can feel the love when you love yourself and when you love yourself you will love others.

Then why when someone speaks to you of God (Christian or otherwise) you think only of the Biblical version of the Old Testament?

Get over that.

Why not assume your own concept of God? Why assume theirs?

Just listen to the message for what it is.

God is Love.

God Loves you.

The proof of that is that you exist.

Then forget the Bible. Put away childish things. The rebellion is over. You are free. Why continue to struggle with abandoned concepts?

Let people be who they are as you are who you are. Let them carry on. Nobody is forcing you to convert to any doctrine.

Allow, and find your peace.

---- ---

What makes you think I dont love myself?

The fact that I exist is proof that God is love?

I prefer to believe in science, evolution, and natural selection! And since we're preachin', here's for you:

I am love,

You are love.

I am god and you are god!

Namaste...!

Now go out there and do something godlike... Plant a tree, help a homeless person, or some other humanitarian act, instead of pray to God to save everyone!

Namaste!

Oh be quiet you dam Humanist!

If you don't "feel" the love and if you don't "feel" love and joy in life and for others, perhaps you don't love yourself enough.

(If you think of "love" as an emotion, then try thinking of it as a feeling of joy and gratitude.

If you associate "GOD" with the Christian concept then perhaps you need to redefine the term GOD and clarify what your own concept of GOD is.

It is THE BIBLE and religious doctrine that you seem to have a problem with.

Thank you. Yes I know I am God.

I don't pray to God to save everyone, I think you have me confused with someone else.

Save yourself.

But what would cause you to reach that conclusion? That is what I am asking.



Are you asking how I personally define love? That’s not an easy question and you could ask ten different people and they would come back with ten different answers. You could throw out some terms that people might use in a descriptive context such as "joy" or "gratitude" You might even find a certain degree of consensus but love has differing meanings and people interpret it in a variety of ways.



I was speaking to feral and we were both discussing her version of god which is the Christian interpretation.



Yes. Organized religion in general bugs the crap out of me.

Personal feelings of Joy and gratitude, when I have them, seem to cause me to feel love for people... even people I don't even know. I guess just my personal experience.

The love I am describing is what I think of as divine love, not human emotions.







No, not really. You called it an 'emotion' so I am thinking you define it as a human emotion. That is why there are so many different definitions for the term 'love.' It is an over used term.

That is why I identify divine love as a feeling of joy, gratitude, peace... etc. It engenders good will and kindness and feelings of compassion and love for other people.

At least that has been my experience.

Okay I guess I did not realize you were speaking in general terms and only to the extent of your own personal experience. Fair enough then.