Community > Science & Philosophy

Topic: Free Will
TravelArranger Joined Sun 02/25/07 Posts: 5214	Wed 12/24/08 05:06 AM
I didn't know Will was taken! but I think we definitely should free him! :)

Filmfreek Joined Sat 11/15/08 Posts: 2541	Wed 12/24/08 07:30 AM
There are those who think that life Has nothing left to chance With a host of holy horrors To direct our aimless dance A planet of playthings We dance on the strings Of powers we cannot perceive The stars arent aligned --- Or the gods are malign Blame is better to give than receive You can choose a ready guide In some celestial voice If you choose not to decide You still have made a choice You can choose from phantom fears And kindness that can kill I will choose a path thats clear I will choose free will There are those who think that theyve been dealt a losing hand The cards were stacked against them --- They werent born in lotus-land All preordained A prisoner in chains A victim of venomous fate Kicked in the face You cant pray for a place In heavens unearthly estate Each of us A cell of awareness Imperfect and incomplete Genetic blends With uncertain ends On a fortune hunt Thats far too fleet...

Alzeimer Joined Thu 10/23/08 Posts: 2268	Wed 12/24/08 08:57 AM
We might have free will but are we free to act as our will want.

Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Wed 12/24/08 01:00 PM
Do we have Free Will or are we completely determined? For the first time I believe I have complete free will. I am completely determined to have free will. I like that JB!

skypoetone Joined Sun 11/30/08 Posts: 59	Sat 12/27/08 06:46 AM
"Shouldn't this be in a religious forum?" ‘Free will’ is only free will if it is used WITHOUT outside influences. ANY outside influence determines how you use it, thus negates said free will.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Sat 12/27/08 09:12 AM Edited by Jeanniebean on Sat 12/27/08 09:17 AM
"Shouldn't this be in a religious forum?" ‘Free will’ is only free will if it is used WITHOUT outside influences. ANY outside influence determines how you use it, thus negates said free will. No it doesn't. How did you come to that conclusion? And the will has little to do with "religion." Religion in general, simply uses that term a lot. Deep down, they actually hate the idea of "free" will. They even try to distort it meaning to mean a choice between following Jesus or not, or between good or evil. Just because a decision is "influenced" does not mean that it is not an action of the will or that the will is not "free." The will involves an inner decision on where to place our attention and how to direct ourselves. It is the power to direct ourselves and our thoughts and feelings. The will is either weak or strong. It is always free. Your are endowed with a will naturally and it comes in the same degree as your conscious awareness. Even a bacteria has a will. It's influence and strength is according to it own conscious awareness of its surroundings.

onceuponatijm Joined Mon 12/22/08 Posts: 93	Sat 12/27/08 09:25 AM
hmmmm bacterial conscious awareness...i'm gonna have to ponder this one awhile...lol

andrewzooms Joined Fri 10/26/07 Posts: 2842	Sat 12/27/08 11:01 AM
"Shouldn't this be in a religious forum?" ‘Free will’ is only free will if it is used WITHOUT outside influences. ANY outside influence determines how you use it, thus negates said free will. No it doesn't. How did you come to that conclusion? And the will has little to do with "religion." Religion in general, simply uses that term a lot. Deep down, they actually hate the idea of "free" will. They even try to distort it meaning to mean a choice between following Jesus or not, or between good or evil. Just because a decision is "influenced" does not mean that it is not an action of the will or that the will is not "free." The will involves an inner decision on where to place our attention and how to direct ourselves. It is the power to direct ourselves and our thoughts and feelings. The will is either weak or strong. It is always free. Your are endowed with a will naturally and it comes in the same degree as your conscious awareness. Even a bacteria has a will. It's influence and strength is according to it own conscious awareness of its surroundings. Well said this made my day.

Melaschasm Joined Wed 12/10/08 Posts: 262	Sat 12/27/08 05:21 PM
If our actions are completely controlled by our DNA and environment, then it should be possible to create a computer that would accurately predict the future based upon different choices. If we truly have free will, then such such detailed, specific, predictions will not be possible no matter how advanced science becomes. From my personal experiences, it seems that I have free will, although there exists the possibility that it is a delusion.

Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Sun 12/28/08 09:51 AM Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Sun 12/28/08 09:58 AM
Fractals, they are random but within an attached rule. Consciousness is like fractals in the sense that pattern arises out of simple rules. The amount of variables at work in the human computer is pretty extreme compared to our modern PC CPU chips. We have entire rooms filled with the most advanced computers on earth running in tandem operating on a single problem for weeks on end without rest to tackle some of the calculations needed to understand the human brain. As our ability to solve challenging rigorous mathematical problems we will get a better peak under the hood of mankind. There are two, maybe three factors at work when trying to tackle to notion of the mechanics of the human brain. 1) transistor count. 2) Software 3) language As far as transistor count goes we can put together a super computer that rivals human brains as far as total output, but efficiency is not matched. And this is kinda an apples and orange assessment anyways. The human brain does certain things like pattern recognition very well but other things like raw calculations extremely poorly. This is where #2 and #3 come in. We are working on understanding the language the brain uses, once we have a grasp of the set of functions within the receptors and the gene expression that goes along with it we are on the track to understand the software. The language is kinda tough for us until we see more of the software. Many believe quantum computing will help us understand how the brain operates. However we are already using imaging technologies to map peoples reactions to things, and very consistently are able to determine there choice and responses to very specific stimuli. Does this some how nullify free will. . . . not at all. Does this mean we could explain how the human brain makes choices? Yes

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Sun 12/28/08 12:27 PM
Fractals, they are random but within an attached rule. Consciousness is like fractals in the sense that pattern arises out of simple rules. The amount of variables at work in the human computer is pretty extreme compared to our modern PC CPU chips. We have entire rooms filled with the most advanced computers on earth running in tandem operating on a single problem for weeks on end without rest to tackle some of the calculations needed to understand the human brain. As our ability to solve challenging rigorous mathematical problems we will get a better peak under the hood of mankind. There are two, maybe three factors at work when trying to tackle to notion of the mechanics of the human brain. 1) transistor count. 2) Software 3) language As far as transistor count goes we can put together a super computer that rivals human brains as far as total output, but efficiency is not matched. And this is kinda an apples and orange assessment anyways. The human brain does certain things like pattern recognition very well but other things like raw calculations extremely poorly. This is where #2 and #3 come in. We are working on understanding the language the brain uses, once we have a grasp of the set of functions within the receptors and the gene expression that goes along with it we are on the track to understand the software. The language is kinda tough for us until we see more of the software. Many believe quantum computing will help us understand how the brain operates. However we are already using imaging technologies to map peoples reactions to things, and very consistently are able to determine there choice and responses to very specific stimuli. Does this some how nullify free will. . . . not at all. Does this mean we could explain how the human brain makes choices? Yes I don't think this can explain how the human brain makes conscious choices. It might explain how the human brain makes programed choices but not conscious willed choices.

Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Sun 12/28/08 01:15 PM
Fractals, they are random but within an attached rule. Consciousness is like fractals in the sense that pattern arises out of simple rules. The amount of variables at work in the human computer is pretty extreme compared to our modern PC CPU chips. We have entire rooms filled with the most advanced computers on earth running in tandem operating on a single problem for weeks on end without rest to tackle some of the calculations needed to understand the human brain. As our ability to solve challenging rigorous mathematical problems we will get a better peak under the hood of mankind. There are two, maybe three factors at work when trying to tackle to notion of the mechanics of the human brain. 1) transistor count. 2) Software 3) language As far as transistor count goes we can put together a super computer that rivals human brains as far as total output, but efficiency is not matched. And this is kinda an apples and orange assessment anyways. The human brain does certain things like pattern recognition very well but other things like raw calculations extremely poorly. This is where #2 and #3 come in. We are working on understanding the language the brain uses, once we have a grasp of the set of functions within the receptors and the gene expression that goes along with it we are on the track to understand the software. The language is kinda tough for us until we see more of the software. Many believe quantum computing will help us understand how the brain operates. However we are already using imaging technologies to map peoples reactions to things, and very consistently are able to determine there choice and responses to very specific stimuli. Does this some how nullify free will. . . . not at all. Does this mean we could explain how the human brain makes choices? Yes I don't think this can explain how the human brain makes conscious choices. It might explain how the human brain makes programed choices but not conscious willed choices. Why is there a difference? Show me how a decision is made that requires it to be somehow different?

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Sun 12/28/08 01:36 PM
Yes there is a difference.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Sun 12/28/08 01:44 PM Edited by Jeanniebean on Sun 12/28/08 01:50 PM
Comparing a brain to a computer is a good analogy. But a computer, no matter how good it is put together, will only do what it is programed to do. It will not go out and find its own programing and install it. (Unless it is programed to do so.) It will not uninstall programs it does not like. It does not think. It only processes information and runs programs. It only does what it is programed to do. So the brain is not the person and it does not make conscious choices, it only processes programs. Neither does the brain go out and find programs and install them or delete programs on its own that it does not like. The brain does not think. It only runs programs. It does not make decisions outside of its programing instructions. Most decisions people make are a result of programing and are mostly automatic and unconscious. In some computers there are learning programs that actually learn new things. There is probably a learning program in the human brain too that makes it appear that the brain can think, but it does not think, it only collects new information via sensory input and processes it. It may then make "decisions" according to the new information it has gathered but that is still only part of the programing.

Strange Joined Mon 12/08/08 Posts: 153	Tue 12/30/08 02:24 AM
"Shouldn't this be in a religious forum?" ‘Free will’ is only free will if it is used WITHOUT outside influences. ANY outside influence determines how you use it, thus negates said free will. No it doesn't. How did you come to that conclusion? And the will has little to do with "religion." Religion in general, simply uses that term a lot. Deep down, they actually hate the idea of "free" will. They even try to distort it meaning to mean a choice between following Jesus or not, or between good or evil. Just because a decision is "influenced" does not mean that it is not an action of the will or that the will is not "free." The will involves an inner decision on where to place our attention and how to direct ourselves. It is the power to direct ourselves and our thoughts and feelings. The will is either weak or strong. It is always free. Your are endowed with a will naturally and it comes in the same degree as your conscious awareness. Even a bacteria has a will. It's influence and strength is according to it own conscious awareness of its surroundings. Well said this made my day. I think i covered this in another thread. Actually as is usually the case no one disputed it. This made my day as well, pure comedy.

Pink_lady Joined Sun 08/24/08 Posts: 2507	Tue 12/30/08 03:08 AM
I agree with Jeannie, she just words it better than me!

Strange Joined Mon 12/08/08 Posts: 153	Tue 12/30/08 06:48 AM
Comparing a brain to a computer is a good analogy. But a computer, no matter how good it is put together, will only do what it is programed to do. It will not go out and find its own programing and install it. (Unless it is programed to do so.) It will not uninstall programs it does not like. It does not think. It only processes information and runs programs. It only does what it is programed to do. So the brain is not the person and it does not make conscious choices, it only processes programs. Neither does the brain go out and find programs and install them or delete programs on its own that it does not like. The brain does not think. It only runs programs. It does not make decisions outside of its programing instructions. Most decisions people make are a result of programing and are mostly automatic and unconscious. In some computers there are learning programs that actually learn new things. There is probably a learning program in the human brain too that makes it appear that the brain can think, but it does not think, it only collects new information via sensory input and processes it. It may then make "decisions" according to the new information it has gathered but that is still only part of the programing. Thats nice and all, reminds me of the materialist movement hundreds of years ago. However explain the subjective experience of emotion. You ever see a computer feel sad? Perhaps they can simulate it but it is as similar to a simulated explosion.

Strange Joined Mon 12/08/08 Posts: 153	Tue 12/30/08 06:49 AM
I agree with Jeannie, she just words it better than me! Look into quantum physics, and the idea of emergent properties. Very intersting stuff.

splendidlife Joined Fri 03/21/08 Posts: 1171	Tue 12/30/08 07:06 AM
"Shouldn't this be in a religious forum?" ‘Free will’ is only free will if it is used WITHOUT outside influences. ANY outside influence determines how you use it, thus negates said free will. No it doesn't. How did you come to that conclusion? And the will has little to do with "religion." Religion in general, simply uses that term a lot. Deep down, they actually hate the idea of "free" will. They even try to distort it meaning to mean a choice between following Jesus or not, or between good or evil. Just because a decision is "influenced" does not mean that it is not an action of the will or that the will is not "free." The will involves an inner decision on where to place our attention and how to direct ourselves. It is the power to direct ourselves and our thoughts and feelings. The will is either weak or strong. It is always free. Your are endowed with a will naturally and it comes in the same degree as your conscious awareness. Even a bacteria has a will. It's influence and strength is according to it own conscious awareness of its surroundings. Isn't "will" simply a function of self-preservation?

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Tue 12/30/08 09:34 AM
Comparing a brain to a computer is a good analogy. But a computer, no matter how good it is put together, will only do what it is programed to do. It will not go out and find its own programing and install it. (Unless it is programed to do so.) It will not uninstall programs it does not like. It does not think. It only processes information and runs programs. It only does what it is programed to do. So the brain is not the person and it does not make conscious choices, it only processes programs. Neither does the brain go out and find programs and install them or delete programs on its own that it does not like. The brain does not think. It only runs programs. It does not make decisions outside of its programing instructions. Most decisions people make are a result of programing and are mostly automatic and unconscious. In some computers there are learning programs that actually learn new things. There is probably a learning program in the human brain too that makes it appear that the brain can think, but it does not think, it only collects new information via sensory input and processes it. It may then make "decisions" according to the new information it has gathered but that is still only part of the programing. Thats nice and all, reminds me of the materialist movement hundreds of years ago. However explain the subjective experience of emotion. You ever see a computer feel sad? Perhaps they can simulate it but it is as similar to a simulated explosion. No, computers don't feel sad or happy or have any feelings at all. This is also true of the human brain. My point is that the brain is not the person. The brain is just a biological computer processing information. It does not feel emotions. It is not the self. Emotions come from the astral level of consciousness.