In order to understand how a person becomes a victim here in this reality there are certain premises that are in place (at least in my world view, which is my belief system.)

1.) We are spiritual beings having human experiences.
2.) This world is a world of duality, 'good' and 'evil.'
3.) This world is one of life and death and extreme experiences.
4.) We are here because we chose to be here.
5.) We agreed to the rules of the game and the laws of this reality.
6.) We have a will of our own in which to direct our own lives.

________________________________


If you do not agree with these premises, then the "law of attraction" may not appear to make sense in some cases involving innocent victims.

___________________________________


Take two innocent people who both appear to be very nice, positive thinking people with similar jobs delivering pizza's in the big city in some of the most dangerous areas of town.

One person becomes a victim of armed robbery three times within one month, and the other person works there for 4 years and never once gets robbed.

So what is the difference? Is one guy just unlucky and the other lucky? Is one slow and stupid and the other runs faster? Is one a man and one a woman? What is the difference?

Then one night the store is robbed by three armed and masked men with automatic weapons. The victim who was robbed three times was in the store at the time of the robbery and he and everyone else was made to go into the walk-in while the robbers ransacked the store.

The other employee who had never been robbed in 4 years, had just went home early that night. Lucky?

I supposed so. It was me. I was very lucky.

The other guy, quit his job the next day, stating that delivering pizzas was the most dangerous job he had ever had in his life. Unlucky? I suppose so.

But then there is the law of attraction. His fear may have attracted these experiences to him. Maybe he just looked like an easy mark. But four armed robberies in one month?

(No, he was not faking it, nor was he in on it. No, I was not in on it either.)

I'm just lucky I guess.

And I don't expect to get robbed. Perhaps he did. Perhaps he worried about it all the time, hence visualizing and attracting the experiences. There is no way to know what thoughts brought those experiences into his reality and not mine.

But worrying about it is visualizing it. Fear is emotion. Worry and fear attract bad experiences.


This is just one example.

it works......law of attraction.

I am not sure what to believe to tell you the truth. Is it a coincidence or is it the laws of attraction at work here?

I would favor laws of attraction just because I want to believe nothing happens to you if you think positive and believe good things will happen by doing so, but then I think about all these people who lose their lives before turning 20, or the child who is suffering from a brain tumor who isn't even 6 months old yet.

I can only say it is a tough call Jeannie

Ok, Jeannie.

It's not my intention to 'argue' with you. But at the same time, you've posted this thread implying that it's somehow important for you to communicate these ideas to others.

My concern would be the following:

In the case that youv'e described you can chalk it up this man's bad experiences claiming that he's a chronic worrier and draws these things to himself.

My question would be this,...

What about a family of young children with an abusive father?

Am I supposed to believe that all of the children in this family are drawing this abuse to themselves via their chronic worrying, etc.?

Moreover, where does that leave the abuser himself (assume the abuser to be the father).

Was he attracted to become an abuser by his childern? Or did he chose to become an abuser on his own?

It just seems to me that it quickly becomes a very tangled web.

Who's attracting which behaviors?


~~~

Moreover, may I sincerely ask you the following question:

Why is this part of the belief even necessary?

In what way does it contribute or support a belief in the Law of Attraction?

In what way would random chance being tossed into the mix hurt or threaten the 'Law of Attraction'?

Couldn't it just be that the Law of Attraction is available to be used if certain criteria are fulfilled, but if those criteria are not fulfilled then a person is like dust in the wind open to random events?

I mean, what you are suggesting here is actually stating that children who are being abused are attracting that to themselves.

That's just really difficult to buy into.

It's also a bit strange. I mean if you truly believe what you say, then you should never feel sorry for anyone.

Why would you ever feel sorry for anyone?

Whatever is happening to them they are drawing to themselves.

If you see a homeless person on the street in the freezing cold winter you just yell out your car window, "You idiot! You should have attracted a warm mansion to yourself!"

I mean, seriously. If everyone is responsible for their own situation then why feel sorry for anyone, or even bother to try to help them?

If they attracted homelessness to themselves and you try to take them in, you shouldn't even be able to do it!

After all, if you succeed in taking them in then you have just blown away the very condition that you claim they have attracted to themselves.

Nope.

I won't argue with you Jeannie.

But since you started a public thread on it, I will state that you haven't convinced me.

And I don't even see where this is necessary for a belief in the Law of Attraction in the first place.

The Law of Attraction could still work ONE-WAY. You could attract things to you on purpose by doing specific things, but if you don't do those things then you just get random crap.

What's wrong with that idea?

How would that harm the Law of Attraction?

Your Rule number #5 would simply state the following:

5.) We agreed to the rules of the game and the laws of this reality. And one of those rules is that if you don't methodically use the Law of Attraction you risk random crap.

What's wrong with that?

That would allow for randomness and perserve the Law of Attraction simultaneously.




I just don't see this vehement need to claim that eveyone is using the Law of Attraction all the time even when they don't know it.

Where's the evidence for that?

Who decided that this should be true?

And why is it even necessary for a belief in the Law of Attraction in the first place?

I'll argue. I loves to agrue (though really, I prefer the term discourse).

Essentially, yes. It doesn't even have to be a current thought process. Reincarnation and karma and whatnot. Maybe the children were the abusers at some point.

Besides, it's just about influence. It's necessary to believe because it signifies that thought turns into existence. And who said anything about random chance? Also, I believe it was you who wrote about the person who focused on their disease when doing spells instead of being well. Not thinking about it nets you nothing, unless someone else has some intent directed at you. Misaligned intent can leave you worse off than when you started. Good intent can lead you or others down the path of enlightenment.

Why can't you feel bad for people even if it is their fault? My ignorance has put me on my *ss a great number of times, but I cannot know everything. If I could I'd be relaxing in the summerlands with the god and the goddess.

Plus, they could have attracted a warm, kind-hearted person to help get them back on their feet.

I don't know, but in my book, there's mainly just the law of attraction (which is really just gravity, seeing as to how gravitrons are theoretical particles) and fate. Maybe the guy needed to be homeless to learn a lesson. That's only their fault for agreeing to play the game. Because they agreed to let fate shaft them, so that they could become a better person. Maybe, they got shafted because they hated homeless people. The universe had to teach them a little bit of empathy.

Yes I did. But in that particular case the man was actually doing the spellwork.

Think of it this way,...

The Law of Attraction is similar to The Law of Flying.

The Law of Randomness is similar to The Law of Gravity.


If you don't use the Law of Flying, you fall victim to the Law of Gravity.

If you don't use the Law of Attraction you fall victim to the Law of Randomness.

However, if you learn to Fly (i.e. You learn to use the Law of Attraction) and you fly into a building. Who's fault is that?

If you learn to use magick spells, and you use them to inadvertently call sickness to yourself, you end up shooting youself in the foot.



Well, that's an interesting thought right there.

Jeannie often speaks about being *responsible* for attracting everything into our lives.

However, if you're ignorant about what you are attracting, then are you truly *responsible* for it.

(i.e. Are you responsible for being ignorant?)

Did you also attract ignorance into your life?

Where does it stop?

Somewhere the buck has to stop.

If you don't realize and understand how to use the Law of Attraction to your benefit - Are you responsible for that?

Do we attract the very ignorance of the knowlege of how to weild the Law of Attraction? And if we do, then did we knowling attract that ignorance?

It becomes a vicious circle.



Sure, you could get into all that, but it still ends up being a nasty web of who attracted what.

Did the homeless person (who originally attracted homlessness to themselves) then also attract someone to pull them out of that situation?

And what about the other party? Were they "attracted to" the act of helping the homeless person.

In fact, there's a can of worms right there!

If people can be attracted into actions by other people, then are they truly attracting their own actions?

It's a can of worms if there's absolutely no room for randomness.

Without any randomness at all, that would mean that every action must necessarily have been attracted by someone. And when you have multiple people involved then who's thoughts win?

I've met many women that I was extremely attracted too, but then didn't feel the same way about me.

What's up with that?

Well, it's the same way with everything else. If an abused person is 'attracting' an abuser then where's the abuser's Law of Attraction?

Something's got to give!

Everyone who participates in a particular situation must ALL be attracting that event to them if there's utterly no room at all for randomness.

It just seems to me that this would be a real can of worms associated with Free Will. It would also be quite complex with respect to who is attracting what.

What about a couple where one person is trying to make amends and the other person is being totally unrealistic and unreasonable?

It seems to me that this would be a violation of the Law of Attraction right there.

The person who is trying to make amends should be drawing that kind of behavior to themselves, and the person who is being totally unreasonable should be drawing that kind of behavior to themselves.

Something's got to give. In reality what usually gives is a break-up. But doesn't that fly in the face of an absolute Law of Attraction?



I know that they often equate it with the "Law of Gravity". Personally I think that's just a poor analogy.

I think they should equate it with the "Law of Flying" and realize that Randomness is more like the law of gravity.

You can learn to fly using the Law of Attraction to your benefit, but if you fail to use it then you fall prey to gravity (the law of randomness).

~~~

Like I asked before,...

Who made this stuff up?

Who made up the rules for the Law of Attraction? (I mean the philosophy!)

Who decided that it has to be that we attract everything that happens to us without any possiblity of randomness ever?

Who decided that?

And where is their evidence?

I think they're wrong is all I'm saying.

They'd have to show me how they determined this to be the case.

Where's the evidence?

Or is it a pure guess?

If it's a pure guess then I'm just not buying because I have no problem at all with allowing randomness to play a role in reality.

I'm not allergic to the idea that randomness can indeed be part of the game.

It seems reasonable to me.

So until you can 'prove' that randomness can't possibly play a role, then you're just asking me to believe something on pure faith without any explanation of why it needs to be that way.

Why should I believe that?

And if no randomness is allowed, then this is actually saying that we even drew our own ignorance of the law of attraction to ourselves via the law of attraction.

How then could we ever turn that around?

What would change that we could then start attracting a knowledge of the Law of Attraction if we are already attracting an ignornace of it.

Something's fishy about this.

It just doesn't pan out in my book without randomness tossed into the mix.

I think this is very similar to the arguments of Determinism versus Indeterminism.

To claim that the Law of Attraction is the only thing that guides our fate is really just a sneaky way to try to preserve the orginal idea of Determinism.

Everything is determined by the Law of Attraction with no room for randomness.

But it still brings up the question of what attracted the ignorance of the Law of Attraction in the first place?

It seems to me that this whole philosophy is screaming for a spark of randomness to set it in motion at the very least.

Anytime we try to reject indeterminism for determinism we're going to get into trouble.

And that's really what this philosophy is attempting to do. It's attempting to return to pure determinism by shunning any possiblity of randomness.

I don't see how it can work to be perfectly honest about it.

I've accepted randomness as part of the game of life.

Quantum Physics made randomness very real to me.

I have no need to now go back to pure determinism. I've already accepted randomness as a part of nature and I'm totally comfortable with it.

This is partly because I understand that randomness does not mean chaos.

But this is something that a lot of other people may not fully understand. So they fear randomness thinking that it somehow represents total chaotic happenstance.

That's not exactly the case.

I've accepted randomness as a very real part of reality, and I have no need to struggle against it.

It's just not a problem.

I believe that we all agreed to undergo whatever earthly experiences were necessary to our personal growth prior to reincarnating into this life time. So, in that respect, yes, we do attract everything that happens to us, good or bad.

It’s all in how you approach this as clearly we all have our diverging opinions. I believe that reincarnation is a very distinct possibility and I tend to lend more credibility to this understanding of life after death than any concept of a heaven or permanent spiritual realm.

That is only based on my personal experience with death and birth.

I don’t feel that we ask to be brought into this world. Humans don’t and animals certainly don’t either. I would only request that you visit an animal shelter to understand this concept. 100s of cats and dogs suffer in cramped confinement only to be euthanized because there is simply no where to put them anymore.

That animal did not ask to be brought into this world and that would be its only "crime."

The same applies to humans. Yet once we are capable of understanding our conscious reality and who we are and the impact we have on our environment, we then take responsibility for our actions.

Once again, nothing new is being stated here beyond "actions have consequences."

I guess I can't even buy into the very popular notion that we are here to learn.

I realize that this is so popular that people often take it for granted. We are spirits who come here to 'learn' and thus grow as spirits.

However, that whole idea doesn't ring true for me. That would just reduce spirit to being in the same situation as a human (having a need to learn).

And where would that lead?

If spirits are truly eternal then there can be no ultimate education. No ultimate growth. No ultimate 'graduation' from the lessons.

To graduate from the lessons would imply that that growth has come to an end. However, the converse to that would be that education and lessons never stop. But that raises the question of why we are trying to become educated in the first place?

For what purpose?

To me, what makes much more sense is that as spirits we are complete. Spirits don't need to 'learn' anything.

We didn't come into this life to learn lessons.

We came into it more like an amusment park. We came into this life to experience it. Period.

Just like we, as humans might go to a movie or an amusement park. You don't go to a movie or an amusement park with the intent of learning a lesson. You just go with the intent of enjoying the experience.

However, when you go to an amusement park there are risks. You have some control about what rides you can go on. But if you chose to go on a ride you are then taking a 'RISK' that something bad could happen to you on that ride which is TOTALLY OUT OF YOUR CONTROL.

If you get on a roller coaster and it jumps off the track and everyone on it is hurt.

Was that event attracted by all the people who were on that roller coaster?

I doubt it.

Mostly likely is was a random event. Or it may have even been CAUSED by a lazy maintance man, or poor managment that didn't maintain the ride properly.

But the idea that everyone who was on that roller coaster attracted that crash to themselves just seems totally ludicous to me.

Moreover, what would be the lesson learned by the ones who have been hurt or killed?

Don't ride roller coasters?

Is that the lesson.

Extrapolate that lesson to all experiences and the lesson of life is that we should all live in padded rooms!



However, I do believe that you are right Ruth. For this Law of Attraction (without randomness) to have any merit at all we must be in this life to LEARN LESSONS.

But then Jeannie needs to change her her original premises.

4.) We are here because we chose to be here.

Well, if we are hear to learn lessons and life is some kind of school we may not have chosen to be here. We may have been placed here by 'godly' parents to teach us lessons.

In that case #4 should read:

4.) We are here because we have lessons to learn and life is some sort of school.

Whether we are here by choice then becomes a question. Maybe this is a mandatory education that we have no choice but to go through?

Who would be "running" the school?

Are we both the teacher and the student simultaneously?

I personally don't believe that it's an education at all. I personally believe that it's just a playground for spirits and spirits have nothing to learn.

All spirits are egalitarian and spirits don't grow. Spirit is eternal.

Not only do we exist forever into the future, but there was never a time in the past when we did not exist.

How could we still need to 'learn' things if we've always existed?

I think the whole idea that spirits need to learn things flies in the face with the idea that they are eternal.

We may be learning things as humans, but I doubt very seriously that we need to learn anything as spirits. Our true higher self already knows everything there is to know.

There is nothing we do not know in our true essence. And our true essence is spirit.

Only the ego can learn things. The higher self has no need to learn anything, it is the divine spirit.

And the ego isn't even real! It's just an illusion that the higher self is making up.

Just my thoughts.

Abracadabra said:



I concur. This would probably be the statement that has been the most earth shattering at least for me thus far. It’s a difficult concept for many to accept however.

I was the one who had asked a question in my O.P.

Two innocent apparently positive people both doing the same job, on gets robbed four times in one month and the other ... not.

So what is the difference? That is the question. I only suggested a few possibilities. I don't know the details of why, except it is the law of attraction at work and it is a very precise law.



Because a law is a law. You either manifest your reality via your vibrations or you do not. If it is a law, then it is a law.

The law of gravity is a law. It is good in that it helps us to remain on the ground. But it also works when a not so pleasant result of an airplane crash happens.

Gravigty also works when someone is pushed off of a cliff or jumps out of a building.

The law does what the law does. Period. You can't have it both ways. You can't have gravity keeping you on the ground and then jump off of a cliff and fly through the air because you are innocent or because you seem to be a positive person.

Your vibration being is set even before you enter this world as an innocent child. An innocent child begins creating its personal reality as soon as it is born by the vibrations he or she puts out. The body is not the whole self. The whole self is the spiritual being who has lived many lives.

The reason I started this thread was because I did not want to discuss it on someone else's thread and you are the one who posted the most argumentative posts in regard to this subject.

I stand by what I say. You can disagree as much as you want and you can stomp your feet and scream that life is unfair and you can stick your tongues out all over the place in here I don't care.

The law is the law. End of story. You don't have to like it or agree with it or understand it. It is still the law.

So there.

Well, the idea of spirits needing to learn just makes no sense to me.

If spirits need to learn then they aren't any further ahead than humans.

A spirit would be in the same pickle as a human then. The only difference would be the humans have physical bodies and spirits don't.

But other than that they are both equally ignorant and lost to understand what the hell is going on.

That scenario only serves to push the humnan condition onto spirit.

If spirits need to learn and grow they they aren't any further ahead than humans.

All that suggests is that when we die and become spirit we will still be just as fcked up as we were in the human condition.

Spiritual beings are individuals. They are not God. They have their own personal interests, hobbies, likes and dislikes after they have experienced enough to have developed them. Of course they want to learn. They don't HAVE TO LEARN. They are completely free to do as they wish according to what they KNOW.

If they don't know much, then they can't do as much. They mostly just play. Games are very important and popular to individual spiritual beings.

I have heard many people say things like "Well we will find out after we die what the 'truth' is."

Not you will not.

What ever makes them think that when they die they will be any closer to the truth or have any more information about the universe or God than they do right now? What do they think, that they will suddenly be an all knowing God when they die?

That is just not true. You will not find out the answers after you die. You will probably know a little more about your own lives, but you will not know all the answers just because one of your physical incarnation kicks the bucket.

It doesn't need to be all or nothing like that.

It could be that you can manifest reality via your vibrations if you do it a certain way, but if you don't apply that method then you're just dust in the wind.

That's a workable law as well.



All I'm asking is that if you want to claim that it's a LAW where's your evidence for it?

From the best I can tell it's not a law at all. It's just a GUESS.

Just becasue you call it a LAW doesn't make it so anymore than calling a book the "Word of God" makes it so.

A guess is a guess by any other name.

You're trying to sell your faith-based beliefs off as a LAW of the universe.

Where's your evidence and proof?

I don't see it.

So I challenge your right to call it a LAW. Since you can't prove it.

It's a GUESS.

Yes in that sense this is true, but that is when we are in the state of oneness with all things which is not a state an individual spiritual being stays in. This is because they are each individuals.

You do not become God and remain God after you die. Some do experience oneness with all that is, but that is not the same thing. You do have access to a lot of information if you know where to look but you will never know all things.

The proof is in the pudding. I can't help it if you can't see it.

(I don't see gravity, but I see the effects of it)

There are a lot of things that exist that we can't see. I am just putting the information out there. You will have a more difficult time attracting what you want in your life if you don't understand how you have already attracted experiences and things you do not want.

I believe it to be a fact. I have proven it to myself. I don't worry over the details just because I don't know every detail of what causes an event to happen.

Randomness is caused by individual wills and individual consciousness and frequencies. If it were not for individual will, there would be no randomness at all, even down to the quantum level.

That is a bald faced lie. I'm not trying to sell anything. I'm giving it away for free.

I am not trying to gain converts to my church.
I am not trying to sell my book.
I am not trying to start a cult.

I don't give a tinker's damn if you believe what I am telling you or not. It is free information. No strings attached. Take it or leave it. I don't care.

But I stick to what I have said. It is a law that is exact that is at work in this spacetime environment.

It is at work in YOUR life as well.

Why create this thread then?

I do see one thing! The victims of the laws of attraction at the moment