But there at least you could encounter a surprise.

I can feel your anger...

Whooee. This place seems hostile.

The point of knowing that you brought something upon yourself who be so that you could understand why you would do such a thing. What purpose was there in said experience? What can you learn from in that?

Because I have to agree. I don't want to be assimilated. Even then, if we were to completely discount the afterlife and spiritual realm from this debate, is not the purpose of being human to learn and to enjoy life? If I had never learned anything of worthy value, how could I enjoy life? From the onset of life, it is rare indeed that anyone can appreciate all things.

Though I too, am a fan of quantum randomness, it only holds true when it isn't being observed. Which is really kinda the whole tree in the forest thing. But, as far as it goes for our current discussion of why some things happen; fate.

However, gravity is only a law because its effects are constantly replicatable. We have no idea of its cause, other than that like things attract like things. One day I truly plan on becoming more like the sun, moon, stars, and clouds enough to fly without propellant (aside from my own will).

I also think that there is a difference between attraction and intent. Attraction being a (somewhat passive) conditioned response. Intent being an active response, or even a pre-action forced decision.

I can assure you that it is not as hostile as it appears.
The contestants know each other well enough to know how far they can go. Nobody gets really hurt here, we stop before we draw blood.

I actually do believe in fate, too.
And what ever fate has in store for us, we will get it whether we like it or not.

I like this idea. Do you mind terribly giving examples of each? I have an idea in my mind's eye but want to make sure I am on the same page as you.

Yeh we are all friends here although we tend to beat each other over the head every once in a while.

Fate, I think, is something that our higher self (the true spiritual entity playing the incarnation game.) decided for itself before each incarnated life in third density. Or perhaps certain things were agreed to before the game was entered.

I think that your fate can also change according to what you can remember about who you really are.

The more you remember about who you are, the more power you will have over your personal reality.

Can you change how you feel?

If you wake up in the morning with a bad attitude, how do you think that will effect your day?

If you are critical of yourself and others do you think that adds to or subtracts from having a good day?

If you have tasks to perform throughout the day and you do them with love and gratitude, being thankful that you are able to do them, do you think you will have a better day than if you are feeling taken advantage of, underpaid, used or feeling sorry for yourself?

Some people proclaim that they cannot help how they feel. They think they are powerless to change their mood or their attitude or their feelings. They go through life being the effect of everything and complaining about everything.

What kind of vibrations are they putting out? What kind of experiences do you think they are attracting? Would you want to spend a lot of time with a person like this?

Misery loves company, so they will undoubtedly attract equally miserable people so they can sit around and complain about the world and talk about their illnesses and get into competitions about who is the most pathetically troubled and miserable person.

Spend your life in this state of consciousness and this attitude and you will probably not like what seems to come your way.

This is my main point. If you want to change your life, change your feelings about things. Change your attitudes about things. Change your thoughts.

It is not just about consequences for your actions. It goes deeply into consequences for your thoughts and feelings.

You're like John. You're assigning your emotions to words that were typed without emotion.



Well, the case that usually comes up is the idea of child abuse. I personally wasn't abused as a child (unless you consider being raised into Christianity to be abuse )

However, what would a child learn from having been abused? They didn't even have a chance to get started in life and they are being abused by their own parent and they are supposed to learn something from that?

To be perfectly honest with you, if I had been abused as a child I would have learned that adults can't be trusted.

Why should I turn the finger toward myself and assume that I did something to deserve to be abused?

And even if I did what am I supposed to assume from that? That I must have done something terrible in a past life to deserve this?

You'll have to tell me what abused children are supposed to be learning.

Moreover, someone had posted way back in the other thread (I think it might have been Jill) the fact that children who are abused often become abusers when they become adults.

So if this is the universe's method of teaching people lessons it doesn't seem to be working very well.

That's all I can say.

And there's no emotion that comes with this. It's just an intellectual viewpoint based on reason. No emotion required.



Well that's just silly.

Cleary that's your ego talking.

Your higher self would never say such a silly thing. The higher self doesn't have an ego to be assimilated.

The fear of having your ego assimilated is a false fear of the ego.

Like I said before, if Spirits have egos and are on a learning curves then how are they any different than the human condition?

They wouldn't be.



Well sure.

But what's that got to do with believing in any particular unproven ideas?

What is to gain from believing that we necessarily were the cause of 100% of everything that happens to us, over accepting that possibility that some things that happen to us might actually be due to the actions of others, or from purely random events?

Why should I believe one over the other?

Just because Jeanniebean says one is true and the other isn't?

How is that learning anything?

What if she's wrong?

Maybe she's the one who needs to learn?

How can you know?

I've given my logical reasons why it makes no sense to believe that we attract 100% of everything that happens to us.

I feel those reasons are sound.

You seem to have the same fear as Jeannie. A fear of being assimilated after you die.

I have no fear of being assimilated after I die. I'm comfortable with the idea of spirit as I understand it.

You aren't being assimilated into something 'other'.

You are being assimilated into your true self.

There's nothing to fear.

Trust me.

That's really what this whole thing is all about.

Fear of assimilation.

Fear of loss of ego.

Well Jeannie, I would certainly agree with everything you've said in the post quoted above.

But all of that could be true, and that still doesn't imply that you are necessarily responsible for attracting every thing that happens to you.

Some people may very well have been in great moods and so forth when bad things happen to them.

I mean come Jean,...

Think about!

What about the girls who have been raped and everyone who knew them will tell you that they were the most happy-go-lucky nicest girls you could ever hope to meet always bubbling over with posistive attitudes an nice things to say about everyone.

Yet they got raped and murdered.

I think there mere fact that cases like that do indeed exist is proof positive that we don't attract 100% of everything that happens to us.

Sure, being nice will change you life.

But that doesn't automatically translate into the idea that we attract 100% of what happens to us.

It just doesn't.

And there are examples of bubbly nice people who have been brutally murdered.

So that's proof positive that it can't be 100%.

There you go giving an example about girls that are apparently happy go lucky, bubbly innocent, with apparently positive attitudes etc. who encounter some tragic traumatic event as if any event is or must be the exception to this rule.

The truth is you don't know this, and your examples are of fictional characters. You also don't know what the nature of the spiritual being was who incarnated into this girls life or what lessons she was here to learn. You also can't possibly know every detail of her karma, or her thoughts, attitudes or her feelings. You can't know how or why she made each decision that lead her to that particular place and time and event or what kind of vibrations she was sending out. You can't know what she was meant to learn by her experience. You can only look at appearances of which you know nothing about intimately, and say that this is so unfair.

There are causes for everything. Each person in an event contributes to these causes. I am not placing blame. To place blame AFTER THE FACT is like shutting the barn door after all the horses have run away. Its too little too late.

But if people could begin to understand at least some of the causes at work, especially the kinds of vibrations they are sending out that seem to draw them to a bad place or a bad experience, then they can certainly avoid this in the future.

Also, if people will begin to open up to the messages that come to them from their own higher mind that knows more than they do, they can and will know things at a distance that can allow them to make better choices and prevent bad things from happening to them.

Example: You are walking home from work one night and you turn to go down a dark alley that you have been down many times before, but suddenly you are spooked by something and you sense someone is in the alley hiding with bad intentions.


This is your sixth sense. You should listen to it. It is not paranoia when it happens you will know it. Too many people ignore it.

You can avoid that alley.

Animals have this sense and so do humans if they can remember how to use it and yet they ignore it and block it out because we are told we only have five senses. This is not true.

So when someone is born with a deformity or a recessive genetic trait that leads to an illness later in life, they drew this event to themselves in some respect? At birth? So the only plausible explanation for occurrences along those lines would be a form of punishment in the current incarnation based on karma for a previous incarnation?

Why not just replace the Law of Attraction all together with a punishment from god and we can revert back to Medieval Christianity right? Lets just pass go. Since its really nothing more than a family generational curse.

I'm really sorry I missed out on the guts of this thread. In the half hour or so that it took to read through it, I was a half dozen or more points I would like to have commented on. But the subject seems to have run it's course so I'll just add a couple afterthoughts...

Abra,
I totally agree with your "eternal, egalitarian spirits" idea. It really does seem to me to be the simplest of all explanations. It covers all the bases and doesn not introduce any complexities that it can't explain - other than the mechanics of how these spirits interact with the physical universe and how you reconcile that idea with the God/ess concept of witchcraft.

Jeannie,
Keep sluggin' girl. I'm 100% behind you on the 100% responsibility idea. We may not agree on the process, but we agree on the final result.

Krimsa,
As always, you have a knack for zeroing in on key illogics. A sometimes caustic presentation keeps everyone from getting too cold and detached.

smiless,
Always the gentle touch and the calm port in the storm. It was always refreshing to come upon your posts in the midst of the firestorm.

So what have we all learned from this?

It is not punishment. It is a very systematic and unfeeling automatic mechanical law or process of cause and effect. It has no feeling (or compassion) of its own. It is just a law.

If it works, it works the same way for every situation, there are no exceptions. We either manifest this reality with our thoughts or we don't. Perhaps you would find it easier to believe some supreme deity on a throne in heaven created everything, end of story. I don't believe that.

I believe this reality is co-created by all of the conscious thinking centers involved.

This reality has the mechanisms (laws) to manifest every conceivable experience available to inhabitants, good or bad, all self created by the conscious thinking processes of the inhabitants who have gathered together to live here.

This is a thought created universe much like your own dreams.

The law of gravity does not change for a child who jumps off or is pushed off of a cliff no matter how innocent he or she is and no matter how "unfair" that law of gravity is in that particular case. It is just a law. Because most every person can clearly see exactly how that law works, they don't question it or claim how unfair it is.

Not so with other laws that they cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt. That is why the "law of attraction" has been called "occult" or "magic." Because people can't prove it or know exactly its effects when it comes to experiences and events.

Im not trying to be caustic. Not intentionally anyway. Isnt that a fair question? I just dont see any difference there at tall between just blaming all horrible occurrence and life derailment on "bad karma" or some past life perceived injustice or evil doing and what the Christians believed back in 1100 CE. I feel thats a dangerous bridge to cross and Im not convinced the Law of Attraction works in that manner.


You didnt answer the question. Im asking how would that explain something that occurs from birth? Not later in life.

Abra said:




What is to be gained?

(Well for one, if it is true you might want to be aware of it and how it works but aside from that...)

I told you this before, but I will say it one more time just in case you missed it.

Once you actually learn HOW you are attracting things into your experience that you DO NOT WANT, then you can learn how change it.

If you don't know HOW you are doing it then you will CONTINUE to do it, and you will be one of those "unlucky" people who scream "WHY ME?"

If you don't want to accept ANY responsibility for something that happens to you then you will certainly blame someone else completely. You can also blame "random events" if you want.

The really difficult things to figure out are things like, a tree falls on your house, or a tornado hits your town, or an airplane falls out of the sky and lands in your living room.

These freak things are impossible to explain, even through the law of attraction. But all of them do have cause. There is no blame.

But out of a hundred thousand people in the city, one man gets killed when a plane falls out of the sky and onto his house.

WHY HIM?

This could be explained by the word "FATE." It was his decided and appointed manner and time of death. This was agreed upon by his higher self before his incarnation.

That's just my idea ... at this point..anyway.

I don't know what we learned, I was ordered to go to my room by James

I think everyone has a different idealogy or approach to the understandings of the laws of attraction. I see it can get quiet complicated and even confusing at times of what is right or wrong on understanding how the true nature of the laws of attraction work.

I say whatever idealogy works best for you is the right answer, for you have to live with it at the end, not the other person.

Well there is no way to "prove" anything. Its all gut instinct. Thats why I normally avoid these kinds of topics like the plague. I think I was just bored so I got involved with this.

I agree that James probably had the most comprehensive approach and theory.

Does anyone want to actually try an intentional attraction experiment?

Focus on something you need or really want. (Usually something I need gets better results)

Really intend to have it.

Pay attention to what happens next.

Be sure it is really something that you want and intend to have. Be prepared to receive it with the assumption that you do have it already. It is on its way towards you. Receive it in your mind.

I am going to do it, but first I have to decide what I want the most at this time.

hummmmm. ..... I'll sleep on it.

Hi Jeannie I posted this what you see below 4 threads back in the morning. You never replied! Maybe you didn't see it. I am all about experimentation.

---------------------------------------
by smiless on Wed 12/10/08 08:54 AM

Hold on Jeannie! I am interested truly. I was just waiting for this to settle down.

I believe if one tries then one can find out. If it doesn't work then move on. If it does work then more power to me. I am not sure if the others have tried to make the laws of attraction work yet, even if it sounds illogical for some. I know scientist even experiment before discovering something. Just like people who practice witchcraft also have ways to do things without exactly explaining it at times. How many times I asked and I get a reply of " I don't know how it is done, it is a feeling."

It is no different then the article you was showing about occult and clarvoyance's. In chapter 3 I think it showed a bunch of scientist getting together to discuss about telepathy and how they come to the conclusion it is possible. These are scientists we are talking about! Most of the world would say this is ridiculous, but no not these guys So we have a choice to take. Try to experiment and see, or don't believe it.

I am still having difficulty understanding the concept. I watched "The Secret" 5 times! I wish it was in the German language to tell you the truth. I will also order the Esther and Jerry Hick Books to get more idealogies out of this concerning telepathy. I know it may not have anything to do with the laws of attraction, maybe it does, but I have a feeling it is linked together.

I think the law of attraction is probably true in every belief system one way or another.

The randomness as James says is Positive thinking = positive results is greater then the randomness of negative thinking = negative results

The absolute is something I would like to know if it is possible.

Is it possible to use the laws of attraction to make absolutes and if this can be proven somehow in a easy 10 step guide

I should get a answer by tommorow morning hopefully I shouldn't complain though, because in the Buddhist forum, I didn't get a reply at all and I waited weeks to only reply to my own questions

If it doesn't work then move on? Hummmmm... well I guess that is one option. BUT.. that is not what I would do.

If it doesn't work, find out what you are doing wrong.

There are a lot of people who tried something and gave up because they thought it "didn't work" so they lost interest and moved on to the next thing they wanted to 'try.'

The mindset in the word 'try' is that it implies the option to fail and quit. Example:

"I tried to paint a portrait but it didn't work out. I just can't paint. In fact, I can't even draw a strait line. I probably just have no talent for that."

This is negative self talk. The truth is they don't have the interest or persistence to learn to paint. They don't have the interest enough to stick to it. They get bored and quit to go try something else.

That is perfectly okay actually. If they don't have the interest, they will probably not succeed in being good at something. You have to really be interested.

I tried a lot of things in my life and moved on. Art was not one of them. I continued to persist at learning to paint, and I still do, and I am still very interested.



My first GOOD understanding of the Law came from the book "The Science of Getting Rich" by Wallace D. Wattles, 1910.

The last chapter sums it up. I have read and reread this book and I have it on tape and I have listened to it many times over. There is not one wasted word in his book.

The Esther and Jerry Hicks books was my next study group. They complimented what I learned from Wattles book. Here is the last chapter of his book:

___________________________________

"THERE is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

A thought in this substance produces the thing that is imaged by the thought.

Man can form things in his thought, and by impressing his thought upon formless substance can cause the thing he thinks about to be created.

In order to do this, man must pass from the competitive to the creative mind; otherwise he cannot be in harmony with the Formless Intelligence, which is always creative and never competitive in spirit.

Man may come into full harmony with the Formless Substance by entertaining a lively and sincere gratitude for the blessings it bestows upon him. Gratitude unifies the mind of man with the intelligence of Substance, so that man's thoughts are received by the Formless. Man can remain upon the creative plane only by uniting himself with the Formless Intelligence through a deep and continuous feeling of gratitude.

Man must form a clear and definite mental image of the things he wishes to have, to do, or to become; and he must hold this mental image in his thoughts, while being deeply grateful to the Supreme that all his desires are granted to him. The man who wishes to get rich must spend his leisure hours in contemplating his Vision, and in earnest thanksgiving that the reality is being given to him. Too much stress cannot be laid on the importance of frequent contemplation of the mental image, coupled with unwavering faith and devout gratitude. This is the process by which the impression is given to the Formless, and the creative forces set in motion.

The creative energy works through the established channels of natural growth, and of the industrial and social order. All that is included in his mental image will surely be brought to the man who follows the instructions given above, and whose faith does not waver. What he wants will come to him through the ways of established trade and commerce.

In order to receive his own when it shall come to him, man must be active; and this activity can only consist in more than filling his present place. He must keep in mind the Purpose to get rich through the realization of his mental image. And he must do, every day, all that can be done that day, taking care to do each act in a successful manner. He must give to every man a use value in excess of the cash value he receives, so that each transaction makes for more life; and he must so hold the Advancing Thought that the impression of increase will be communicated to all with whom he comes in contact.

The men and women who practice the foregoing instructions will certainly get rich; and the riches they receive will be in exact proportion to the definiteness of their vision, the fixity of their purpose, the steadiness of their faith, and the depth of their gratitude."