to any and/or all that is either a witness and/or a product of any and/or all creations past present and/or future ...I hope that covers everything

why would it want to prove to itself it was not THE god? what purpose would it have to do that?

Wouldn't logic suggest these man-made ideas of a jealous god a tad juvenile?

The very idea of god "needing" anything, assigning human traits to something infinitely beyond human, seems ridiculous.

These "rules" were formulated from the minds of man.



Silly Human, Silly Human Race...

how dare you insult the human race!!! -

but since you have - tell me doe eyes - as an outsider, what are your real feelings about humans?

We're all just babes in the woods...

I flail about this earth with essentially the same type of vehicle as any other human. My conscious mind moves my body around, stumbling me on almost every step along the way.

Although I don't often "feel" human, I'm reminded every time I do yet another stupid thing (which is just about every other second).



D'oh!

Because God isn't real and the bible is a book of fairy tales.

Yep.

"Tribo" you ask for what purpose? .. the same purpose that it creates .....since an omnipotent God wants or need for naught it would have no need purpose or reason to create anything ...

the fact that it would create anything is an indiction to itself that it does have needs and therefore is not a God

Could you give some scripture where this is happening.

Off the top of my head the only Angels I know of having swords are the 2 guarding the entrance to the garden of eden with Flaming swords.

Representing Yahweh is a consuming fire and the double edge sword being his word is sharper than any.

The same as we are told that we will carried a double edge sword but that will be the word the world will hate and kill for.


The maccabbeens said something about seeing an army of Angels in heaven.

But Angels anywhere I do not know it is thier. Michael fights with Satan when he is finally thrown out of heaven for good but i do not remember a sword.

I would like to see those scriptures Tibe.... Shalom...Miles

2Ki 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.


ENOCH

CHAPTER VIII.
1. And Azâzêl taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates

1. And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being shed upon the earth, and all lawlessness being wrought upon the earth. 2. And they said one to another: 'The earth made †without inhabitant cries the voice of their crying† up to the gates of heaven. 3 ⌈⌈And now to you, the holy ones of heaven⌉⌉, the souls of men make their suit, saying, "Bring our cause before the Most High.".' 4. And they said to the Lord of the ages: 'Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings, 〈and God of the ages〉, the throne of Thy glory (standeth) unto all the generations of the ages, and Thy name holy and glorious and blessed unto all the ages! 5. Thou hast made all things, and power over all things hast Thou: and all things are naked and open in Thy sight, and Thou seest all things, and nothing can hide itself from Thee. 6. Thou seest what Azâzêl hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which men were striving to learn: 7. And Semjâzâ, to whom Thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates. 8. And they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth, and have slept with the women, and have defiled themselves, and revealed to them all kinds of sins. 9. And the women have borne giants, and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness. 10. And now, behold, the souls of those who have died are crying and making their suit to the gates of heaven, and their lamentations have ascended: and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are wrought on the earth. 11. And Thou knowest all things before they come to pass, and

"""Thou seest what Azâzêl hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which men were striving to learn"""


And I saw the places of the luminaries ⌈and the treasuries of the stars⌉ and of the thunder ⌈and⌉ in the uttermost depths, where were a fiery bow and arrows and their quiver, and ⌈⌈a fiery sword⌉⌉ and all the lightnings.

i will search for more.

so we have swords, bows and arrows, fiery chariots,, so far - hmmm - war implements - now i ask two things - why would god who knows all stay with using that ages instruments of war #1, when he is capable of producing atomic bombs if he wants, and why would angels need to war with each other seeing that they cannot be killed - banished yes - killed no. eternally punished - yes, destroyed no.

i was strictly talking of what the book says god says about himself - that he is a jealous god - that's what i have to go by. it's not my belief, its a christian/Jewish belief.

so your equating - "need" with purpose or reason?

hmmm explain?

the scriptures talk about 2 witnesses things are established. this could be why Enoch was left out of the cannon as several other books were of the ot. shalom...miles

they were left out of the canon proper but still included in the catholic bible even today - the breakaway lutherans had it in theres in the middle for along time and it was not until the 18-19 century that most stopped using it. becuase it is no longer there does not give it any less creedence than when it was - especially since it is talked of or mentioned in the canon by Jude and Paul. If it were not worthy to begin with - then why is it still present in the catholic apocrapha??

We first learn of Enoch in Genesis 5 but it leaves us with questions. Hebrews 11 has the answers and Jude quotes Enoch! How did Jude come to know the words of Enoch? They are not in the Bible. The answer of course, is The Book of Enoch. A book which is actually quoted not only by Jude, but also James the natural brother of Jesus.

The quote in (Jude 14-15) & (1 Enoch 1:9) is as follows: "In the seventh (generation) from Adam Enoch also prophesied these things, saying: 'Behold, the Lord came with his holy myriads, to execute judgment on all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners spoke against him'."

What is the Book of Enoch and where did it come from?
Enoch was the grandfather of Noah. The Book of Enoch chapter 68:1 "And after that my grandfather Enoch gave me all the secrets in the book and in the parables which had been given to him, and he put them together for me in the words of the book of the parables." This makes it possible for the Book to have survived the flood as its not too hard to accept that Noah would have taken his Great Grandfathers writings with him onto the ark.

The Book of Enoch was extant centuries before the birth of Christ and yet is considered by many to be more Christian in its theology than Jewish. It was considered scripture by many early Christians. The earliest literature of the so-called "Church Fathers" is filled with references to this mysterious book. The early second century "Epistle of Barnabus" makes much use of the Book of Enoch. Second and Third Century "Church Fathers" like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origin and Clement of Alexandria all make use of the Book of Enoch. Tertullian (160-230 C.E) even called the Book of Enoch "Holy Scripture". The Ethiopic Church even added the Book of Enoch to its official canon. It was widely known and read the first three centuries after Christ. This and many other books became discredited after the Council of Laodicea. And being under ban of the authorities, afterwards it gradually passed out of circulation.

At about the time of the Protestant Reformation, there came to be a renewed interest in the Book of Enoch which had long since been lost to the modern world. By the late 1400's rumors began to spread that somewhere a copy of the long lost Book of Enoch might still exist. During this time many books arose claiming to be the long lost book and were later found to be forgeries.
The return of the long lost Book of Enoch to the modern western world is credited to the famous explorer James Bruce, who in 1773 returned from six years in Abyssinia with three Ethiopic copies of the lost book. In 1821 Richard Laurence published the first English translation. The famous R.H. Charles edition was published in 1912. In the following years several portions of the Greek text surfaced. Then with the discovery of cave 4 of the Dead Sea Scrolls, seven fragmentary copies of the Aramaic text were discovered.

The Book of Enoch is divided into five basic parts, but it is the The Book of Parables (37-71) which gives scholars the most trouble for it is primarily concerned with a figure called "the messiah"; "the righteous one"; "the chosen one" and "the son of man."
Chapter 46:1-2 [1] There I beheld the Ancient of days whose head was like white wool, and with him another, whose countenance resembled that of a man. His countenance was full of grace, like that of one of the holy angels. Then I inquired of one of the angels, who went with me, and who showed me every secret thing, concerning this Son of man; who he was; whence he was; and why he accompanied the Ancient of days. [2] He answered and said to me, This is the Son of man, to whom righteousness belongs; with whom righteousness has dwealt; and who will reveal all the treasures of that which is concealed: for the Lord of spirits has chosen him; and his portion has surpassed all before the Lord of spirits in everlasting uprightness."

The opening verses of the Book of Enoch tell us that the revelations in this book were not meant for Enoch's generation, rather a remote generation, and of course the book would make more sense to the generations after Christ. We know that the early Church made use of the Book of Enoch, but it was then all but lost, until recent times. Perhaps this book was meant for our generation, as it is widely available today after being concealed for over a millennia.

(Enoch 1:1-3) The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. And he took up his parable and said -Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is for to come.

then you have both Jude and James[brother of Jesus] to count as witness that it was accepted that Enoch was a prophet and his words used in the NT.if his words are used in the cannon then by default they are canonical are they not?

Or - if every word in the bible is to be believed to come from the mind of god written by inspired men, then there is no choice but to believe the words of Enoch are god breathed - correct? Otherwise, gods people have made a grave mistake and no words can be believed or taken as canon.

The whole book is then a lie. WHY - it means men not guided by god allowed his book to be corrupted on purpose by putting things there and leaving them there for hundreds of years as gospel truth.and makes Jude, James, Paul, and the early church fathers who quoted from or mention Enoch, hypocrites and liars. correct?

This in turn, would make every other saying or written word suspect to its truth, and the whole book collapses under this weight. whether the book is included or not, then the early fathers, Paul, Jude, And James are guilty of not knowing by the holy spirit or Jesus or god that they were telling lies to others by using Enochs words. the book then falls and can no longer stand on any merit what so ever. it could be found to be nothing but lies or hearsay at best. Thus it's demise.

I would like to see those scriptures >>>Tibe.<<< Shalom...Miles


I'll pass thaT request on to "tibe" the next time i see him.

Your friend "TRIBO!!!" -

are you sure your not a puppet? sure sounds like it? were you -> Pinnochia<- possibly in a former life? do you like to crach nuts? do you sometimes feel like your a piece of furniture or other wooden object?

To what are you referencing? Most references to angels fighting with swords comes from prophetic writings that are highly metephorical. One of the more common metephors of scripture is that of the sword. Difficult to respond to this question without a more specific reference.



As far as we know God does not "wipe them out" in the sense that we refer to it - which is to pass from life to death, for in biblical terms, all beings are eternal - face judgement, and spend eternity in that place which is designated for them. So the presumption here is vague. God does not "control" his creations - it isn't a matter of "can't" as much as it is "doesn't".

Big difference. Therefore your question about omnipotence is misplaced. It assumes your choice of the word "can't" as fact. Because God does not chose to control his creation does not conclude that he is incapable of it. He remains "omnipotent" until it can be demonstrated that the matter of control is beyond his capabilities.



There is no fear in God. Fearing "for" something is not equal to fearing something. Where in scripture is it demonstrated that God "fears" anything? He is omniscient. What is there for him to fear? He already knows the outcome of all things, and has chosen to allow things to progress towards this end - and the notion that this end is not what he fully expected is absurd.

To assume anything other than this is to have created a biblical God that does not exist.




Correct. What is at odds here is the presentation of the attributes of God - as opposed to the absolute of God. Perhaps in the presumptions made, a God has been created that does not exist in scripture, in which case your conclusion of a lack of omniscience or one who lives in fear might be qualities of this percieved diety. However - too much of scripture would not line up with these assumptions. Therefore, something is amiss in the presumptions.

Perhaps if the specificity of the instances that you site were a little more exact, we could reach a more concise conclusion to the questions you've asked. Then we could move out of pretext into context, and have something to discuss.

The only way to prove this statement is to claim the omniscience needed to state it as fact. Thus - making yourself God. It is a purely contradictory statement and demonstrates a lack of understanding of how facts support an argument.